Change of pace - want to replace my Nikon D80 with...?

[marctwo]

AdvocatusD said:

It is relative indeed! I think 80 is probably just long enough for the usual stuff.

Are pancake lenses recommended at all?

What's the best place in London to go and have a chat and see the range of lenses available?

Edited by AdvocatusD on Friday 11th July 13:28

The best pancake is the Panasonic 20mm f1.7 which is great. Pancake zooms are never going to be as good as full sized, but you can choose either the Panasonic 12-32mm or the Olympus 14-42 EZ.

As far as trying them, take your pick...

http://www.olympus.co.uk/site/en/c/cameras_support...

[NewNameNeeded]

Take a look at the Canon S120.

I had the same feelings as you and got two Canon S110's for me and the wife (I had a Nikon D300, her a D90) and we love how compact they are but the picture quality is still excellent, and there are quite a few modes and a manual mode to play with.

I looked at smaller DSLR's and bridge cameras and the like but if the D80 (and lenses) is too big to lug around I'd be amazed if you feel any different about smaller systems. The Canon slips in to your pocket and to my mind has 90% of the capability as my big camera.

[AdvocatusD]

Just handled the EM10. Was "assisted" by an absolutely clueless shop assistant at Dixons who didn't even know how to put it on!

Anyway, lovely size and I don't doubt its credentials but I was put off by the EVF. It does look quite artificial and enhanced when you look through.

Any thoughts on this?

Maybe the Cannon Rebel is the better option?

[Simpo Two]

AdvocatusD said:

I was put off by the EVF. It does look quite artificial and enhanced when you look through.

[Mr Snap]

Simpo Two said:

AdvocatusD said:

I was put off by the EVF. It does look quite artificial and enhanced when you look through.

X2

EVF is a bag of ste.

[ManFromDelmonte]

AdvocatusD said:

Maybe the Cannon Rebel is the better option?

As I said above, surely the D3300 is the way to go if you already have Nikon mount lenses.

[Simpo Two]

Mr Snap said:

Simpo Two said:

AdvocatusD said:

I was put off by the EVF. It does look quite artificial and enhanced when you look through.

X2

EVF is a bag of ste.

Salesman: 'And of course this model has a special BOS viewfinder sir'
Prospect: 'BOS? What's that stand for?'
Salesman: 'Bag of ste sir'

teehee

[AdvocatusD]

Drat! I'm right where I started now I think.

I went to Selridges and had another play with the EM1 with a far more knowledgeable salesman to hand. I raised the point about the EVF and he said that most people use the LCD display to focus. Does that sound right to the Olympus OMD EMx users here? It's growing on me and the size is perfect.

I also had a look at Cannon EOS 100D which is also called the Rebel SL1. Nice size for a DSLR but the lenses look/feel plasticky?

I'm not stuck on staying with Nikon. I can easily sell my stuff and get another system...

[Mr Snap]

If all you want to do is happy snaps, go for the Olympus.

If you think you may want to do things which require critical focus, the EVF may let you down.




(Someone may soon come along to say I'm completely wrong. Don't listen to them).

[Simpo Two]

AdvocatusD said:

I went to Selridges and had another play with the EM1 with a far more knowledgeable salesman to hand. I raised the point about the EVF and he said that most people use the LCD display to focus. Does that sound right to the Olympus OMD EMx users here?

Maybe they do but that's for the compact brigade moving up, not the DSLR brigade moving down. I can't imagine anything more silly than trying to manually focus a camera by waving it in front of me and staring at the monitor instead of the subject. But you are the one who's going to have to use this so feel free to ignore

[ManFromDelmonte]

Simpo Two said:

Maybe they do but that's for the compact brigade moving up, not the DSLR brigade moving down. I can't imagine anything more silly than trying to manually focus a camera by waving it in front of me and staring at the monitor instead of the subject. But you are the one who's going to have to use this so feel free to ignore

Not to mention how much extra camera shake you're going to introduce by holding the thing at arms length rather than anchoring it to your head.

[marctwo]

Are you really going to be manually focusing? The Olympus AF system is one of the fastest in the world. As for accuracy, contrast detect AF is more accurate than phase detect. If you have to manual focus then use peaking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qROSbB-MBLg which you can use via the rear screen or EVF.

I use the EVF all the time and find it brilliant:

- It's easy to see in bright sunlight (for taking and reviewing)
- It makes the camera more stable by having it against your eye
- It allows me to concentrate on the composition and not get distracted
- What you see is what you get. If I have accidentally left exposure comp on +3 then I'll immediately see it which you would not do with an OVF.

It might take a bit of getting used to but I think it's worth it.

[marctwo]

Mr Snap said:

If all you want to do is happy snaps, go for the Olympus.

If you think you may want to do things which require critical focus, the EVF may let you down.




(Someone may soon come along to say I'm completely wrong. Don't listen to them).

You are completely wrong.

Have you tried manually focusing a DSLR using the OVF? In the old film days it was easy as the focusing screen was designed for manual focusing and had a split ring in the middle. DSLRs all have AF and haven't really been designed for manual focus. Most compact system cameras now have focus peaking which highlights the in-focus area of the image making it very easy to achieve critical focus. You can also use a magnified live view to help. If you switch to auto focus, contrast detect AF (as used in CSCs) is more accurate than phase detect AF (as used in DSLRs).

The main area in which DSLRs / phase detect AF still has the edge is continuous AF and tracking. If you are going to be shooting a lot of moving subjects e.g. football / motorsports then a DSLR is going to be better.

[AdvocatusD]

marctwo said:

Are you really going to be manually focusing? The Olympus AF system is one of the fastest in the world...

It might take a bit of getting used to but I think it's worth it.

Thanks marctwo, that's good to hear. Every review I have read seems to shout the camera's praises. I'm not a particularly accomplished photographer at all and very much an (occasionally) enthusiastic amateur.

In relation to manual focusing, I was thinking of using it for shots like this which I do tend to take a few of. When there a variety of depths within a short distance (not necessarily exemplified below) I'd definitely use manual focussing, unless the AF is that good?

marctwo said:

The main area in which DSLRs / phase detect AF still has the edge is continuous AF and tracking. If you are going to be shooting a lot of moving subjects e.g. football / motorsports then a DSLR is going to be better.

I don't do a lot of panning but I would want any camera to be up to motorsports, etc. The shot below was taken with my D80. I'm assuming I can expect at least this for the Olympus?

Edited by AdvocatusD on Monday 21st July 10:07

[marctwo]

AdvocatusD said:

Thanks marctwo, that's good to hear. Every review I have read seems to shout the camera's praises. I'm not a particularly accomplished photographer at all and very much an (occasionally) enthusiastic amateur.

In relation to manual focusing, I was thinking of using it for shots like this which I do tend to take a few of. When there a variety of depths within a short distance (not necessarily exemplified below) I'd definitely use manual focussing, unless the AF is that good?

The AF is that good.

DSLRs have fixed AF points. Unless your subject falls within the AF area you have to manual focus or focus-recompose.



CSCs don't have this limitation and you can choose any af area you want, although for ease they often allow you to select from a grid as a starting point:

[marctwo]

AdvocatusD said:

I don't do a lot of panning but I would want any camera to be up to motorsports, etc. The shot below was taken with my D80. I'm assuming I can expect at least this for the Olympus?

Edited by AdvocatusD on Monday 21st July 10:07

An example from an E-M5:

[Simpo Two]

marctwo said:

I use the EVF all the time and find it brilliant:

- It's easy to see in bright sunlight (for taking and reviewing)
- It makes the camera more stable by having it against your eye
- It allows me to concentrate on the composition and not get distracted
- What you see is what you get. If I have accidentally left exposure comp on +3 then I'll immediately see it which you would not do with an OVF.

Apart from the last point, optical VFs do the same!

As for focus points the examples you show has the EVF with more points than the DSLR - but that is camera-specific - mid/top Nikon for example have 51 points. I tried 51 but found in practice it took too long to scroll around them so all my work is done with it set to 11. You can of course move the camera a little bit to get the closest point exactly where you want it if not manually focusing. There are also diferent kinds of focus sensors, some are better/more accurate than others.

I don't EVFs because they are not 'real' - they divorce the user from reality - but then I've used them for decades; a newbie might well prefer looking at an idiot-proof telly

[marctwo]

Simpo Two said:

Apart from the last point, optical VFs do the same!

As for focus points the examples you show has the EVF with more points than the DSLR - but that is camera-specific - mid/top Nikon for example have 51 points. I tried 51 but found in practice it took too long to scroll around them so all my work is done with it set to 11. You can of course move the camera a little bit to get the closest point exactly where you want it if not manually focusing. There are also diferent kinds of focus sensors, some are better/more accurate than others.

I don't EVFs because they are not 'real' - they divorce the user from reality - but then I've used them for decades; a newbie might well prefer looking at an idiot-proof telly

Both have advantages and disadvantages. Personally I like being able to see what the picture will actually look like before I have taken it and think that's a rather big advantage for EVFs. Suggesting they are only for newbies is a bit narrow-minded. I am not saying that CSCs are always better than DSLRs, I am just trying to cut through the DSLR snobbery and look at the actual facts.

[Simpo Two]

marctwo said:

Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Therefore preferring one system over another is not 'snobbery', but personal taste. There are EVF snobs and Bridge Camera snobs too!

marctwo said:

Suggesting they are only for newbies is a bit narrow-minded.

It is perfectly normal to suggest that something 'difficult' (like looking through a piece of glass?) is better suited to beginners. Personally if I want to look at something I want to see it directly, not have a layer of gubbins telling me what it thinks is right. You say 'What you see is what you get' but that is subjective - a histogram is a more accurate way of judging exposure than a TV connected to an eyeball, not least because the brightness you perceive will depend on your own built in aperture ring - the iris - and that will vary according to ambient light.

But going back to the plot, the OP wants a small camera with as much DSLR capability as possible, and if the closest fit to that has an EVF then that is the best overall answer for him.

[marctwo]

Simpo Two said:

marctwo said:

Both have advantages and disadvantages.

Therefore preferring one system over another is not 'snobbery', but personal taste. There are EVF snobs and Bridge Camera snobs too.

I'm all for personal preference but there is a lot of snobbery about though. The 'your camera is small so must be a toy' brigade. I am not suggesting you are one of them, but I just want to make sure there is a balanced debate.

The bottom line is that all of the cameras we have discussed are going to give good results. There is no 'best' camera, only the 'most suitable' and, as you state, this is down to personal preference.