Making Money in Photography

Making Money in Photography

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RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
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Weddings is a tricky one for sure.

Having recently second shot a few there is a lot more to them (as a primary shooter) than just pointing the camera and fiddling with dials.


The photographer usually becomes the de-facto wedding expert, from talking to the bride pre wedding and getting her over nerves, to getting flowers pinned onto grooms-men ( right side, right way). Then 'running' the day/crowd as needed.

Its these kind skills that I think make you a good wedding tog rather than just the photography side, which is hard enough ( no plants out of peoples heads, dark sts, white dresses, all conditions etc).

Simpo Two

85,149 posts

264 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
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RobDickinson said:
The photographer usually becomes the de-facto wedding expert, from talking to the bride pre wedding and getting her over nerves, to getting flowers pinned onto grooms-men ( right side, right way). Then 'running' the day/crowd as needed.
Yep. You can take the best photos ever but if you have no interpersonal skills they won't work with you and it'll show. The tog is one of the team that make a wedding day work. Venue manager, tog, florist, cake bod, string quartet, toastmaster, DJ/band - all should know what's required of them and how they fit together to make the big picture.

budfox

1,510 posts

128 months

Tuesday 29th September 2015
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I make a decent amount of money from photography because it's one of the things I'm "good enough" at. From building websites to designing posters, SEO work, writing copy, coming up with marketing campaigns and of course photography, I'm quite often the only person that an individual or a small business has to deal with when something needs delivering.

I'm not an expert at any of it, but I always have plenty of work. I find that my clients love to deal with someone they can rely on, who will just get the job done at a fair price and within a timescale.

So what point am I making? That there are tens of thousands of better photographers than me, but that makes no difference. Because I can do "other stuff" too I get paid for photography.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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budfox said:
I make a decent amount of money from photography because it's one of the things I'm "good enough" at. From building websites to designing posters, SEO work, writing copy, coming up with marketing campaigns and of course photography, I'm quite often the only person that an individual or a small business has to deal with when something needs delivering.

I'm not an expert at any of it, but I always have plenty of work. I find that my clients love to deal with someone they can rely on, who will just get the job done at a fair price and within a timescale.

So what point am I making? That there are tens of thousands of better photographers than me, but that makes no difference. Because I can do "other stuff" too I get paid for photography.
I write. When I started I used to send in lot of articles on spec and I'd probably have around a third accepted. An editor of a magazine for which I wrote half a dozen articles a year suggested I should illustrate the articles with photographs. The acceptance rate went up to about 80%, sometimes more. I once had 26 non-commissioned articles accepted on the trot.

With articles, the trick is to supply what the editor wants. The writing has to hit the deadline, be within 10% of the wordage, and be in easily understood English. The function of the pictures is to support the text, explaining something that would take too much space, and looking 'nice'. Nice is a complex word but you soon get the hang of it. Flights of fancy, and lots of arty imagery, be it in the pictures or text, is frowned on.

I used to edit a car club magazine. Images with articles used to be a real pain sometimes. Decent copy was supplied with images at odd angles, weird Photoshop effects and, strangely common, having nothing to do with the text.

The cover image and the double page spread on pp 2 and 3 could be arty, although only one of them at a time. For the vast majority of the rest, such self indulgence was to be abhorred. 72 pages, four or more images on each page, so getting on for 300 pictures, with just one being arty. Not great odds.

I had an excellent photographer, Andy Hills, a PH regular, and his images were clear, crisp, showed the cars (whatever) to their best advantage and he sent in a dozen or so for each subject. The perfect photographer for publications. (Thanks, Andy.) He could produce some imaginative and artistic images, but they don't pay the bills.

If you want to take photographs, discover what your market wants and supply that. You can, on occasion, go all Picasso, but don't expect any thanks. Or money.


Simpo Two

85,149 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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Derek Smith said:
I had an excellent photographer, Andy Hills, a PH regular, and his images were clear, crisp, showed the cars (whatever) to their best advantage and he sent in a dozen or so for each subject. The perfect photographer for publications. (Thanks, Andy.) He could produce some imaginative and artistic images, but they don't pay the bills.
Did he get paid (more than petrol money) though?

RobbieKB

Original Poster:

7,715 posts

182 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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I am still reading this and I'm loving all the replies and discussion, keep it up! I've been really busy lately as I got approached by a company that makes apps for small business about having an app made. I politely declined and then got chatting with them about the work they do. Long story short I usurped their graphical designer who wasn't very good and took too long and now they send me work most days. hehe

It certainly feels like all roads lead to weddings with portraiture at the moment. I'm told by pretty much any person I speak to about photography that they'd 'have me shoot their wedding without a doubt' but it's something I'm reticent to do still. Technically I know I could handle it, wrangling large groups I reckon I might be ok but I know so little about weddings and as has already been said, you need to be a kind of expert in Weddings. We'll see. Perhaps I'll act as a second shooter for someone to build confidence.

nitrodave

1,262 posts

137 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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Become a paparazzi. Stalk politicians and celebrities until you catch one with a hooker and bags of cocaine then sell the pics to the tabloids

Simpo Two

85,149 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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RobbieKB said:
as has already been said, you need to be a kind of expert in Weddings. We'll see. Perhaps I'll act as a second shooter for someone to build confidence.
Everyone has to start somewhere. A pole vaulter has to vault his first pole. It's a question of managing expectations - be honest with the couple, and price according to experience and portfolio.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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Simpo Two said:
Derek Smith said:
I had an excellent photographer, Andy Hills, a PH regular, and his images were clear, crisp, showed the cars (whatever) to their best advantage and he sent in a dozen or so for each subject. The perfect photographer for publications. (Thanks, Andy.) He could produce some imaginative and artistic images, but they don't pay the bills.
Did he get paid (more than petrol money) though?
He got expenses if he asked for them.

The point of the post was to explain what editors want from images. Andy's submissions, in the main, were by no means arty, just a gift to the picture editor. He sent in the occasional stunning one, where he used his imagination and creativity, and we all admired them, and didn't print them.

We also had a professional photographer who used to supply the occasional image to the club (for free) - see http://www.davidlord.co.uk/. He'd pick some really attractive ones for the inside front cover, but his main fare was crisp, clear actions shots from various angles or, perhaps, someone recognisable near one of 'our' cars.

As an aside, I only seemed to see him when he was soaking wet.

Have a look at what he supplies before giving up the day job.


Simpo Two

85,149 posts

264 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
He got expenses if he asked for them.

The point of the post was to explain what editors want from images. Andy's submissions, in the main, were by no means arty, just a gift to the picture editor. He sent in the occasional stunning one, where he used his imagination and creativity, and we all admired them, and didn't print them.

We also had a professional photographer who used to supply the occasional image to the club (for free) - see http://www.davidlord.co.uk/. He'd pick some really attractive ones for the inside front cover, but his main fare was crisp, clear actions shots from various angles or, perhaps, someone recognisable near one of 'our' cars. As an aside, I only seemed to see him when he was soaking wet.

Have a look at what he supplies before giving up the day job.
You say 'Have a look at what he supplies before giving up the day job', yet Andy took exactly what you wanted to complete your glossy magazine (I used to take it) and got paid nothing for them. And the professional gave you photos for free. Lucky he had other clients to pay his bills...

It illustrates perfectly is how difficult it is to make a living taking photos. The editor wins, the club that pays him wins, the PBT (poor bloody tog) gets nothing.

tog

4,517 posts

227 months

Wednesday 30th September 2015
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nitrodave said:
Become a paparazzi. Stalk politicians and celebrities until you catch one with a hooker and bags of cocaine then sell the pics to the tabloids
But make sure no one else gets the picture as well.

RobbieKB

Original Poster:

7,715 posts

182 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
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Simpo Two said:
RobbieKB said:
as has already been said, you need to be a kind of expert in Weddings. We'll see. Perhaps I'll act as a second shooter for someone to build confidence.
Everyone has to start somewhere. A pole vaulter has to vault his first pole. It's a question of managing expectations - be honest with the couple, and price according to experience and portfolio.
As coincidences go, I was offered a wedding gig this morning for next year. I haven't replied yet; need to think it through!

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Thursday 1st October 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
You say 'Have a look at what he supplies before giving up the day job', yet Andy took exactly what you wanted to complete your glossy magazine (I used to take it) and got paid nothing for them. And the professional gave you photos for free. Lucky he had other clients to pay his bills...

It illustrates perfectly is how difficult it is to make a living taking photos. The editor wins, the club that pays him wins, the PBT (poor bloody tog) gets nothing.
Small point: I didn't get paid.

I write professionally. There are thousands of amateurs out there who write for free. If it wasn't for websites giving away data and information I could have people queuing up for my books. I have had to change what I do over the years to cope with this wealth of freebie copy. No one owes me a living.

I write a fair bit of free stuff for my own purposes. I create the occasional video and post a lot of pictures on websites. It is the problem with the internet. The reverse of this, of course, is that the internet provides a steady market for those who want such work.

WH Smith magazines could, in all probability, fill their pages with unsolicited copy that ends up on the editors' desks, or probably on the dedicated slush-pile reader's desk, but they choose not to because they want quality copy and images.

I wanted to get my copy published for money regularly so I took up photography. If you want your images published then one answer is to take up writing. Editors are not after deathless prose in the same way they are not after stunning images all the time. Copy in English, on time, and to length is the same as images that are in focus, not blurred and vertical verticals. Editors don't want to spend a long time Photoshopping images in the same way they don't want to have to rewrite paragraphs.

If you regularly supply copy and images to a magazine, sooner or later the editor will commission you. It's not easy, but they if it was, everyone would be doing it for money.

No one is owed a living in their choice of profession. We all know there is room at the top, but there is room in the middle as well.


trackdemon

12,149 posts

260 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
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I'm breaking my personal rule of don't post online after you've been to the pub with mates, but... whatever.

I couldn't help but notice you responded with rhetoric of your own, which supports your own model, but ignored responding to the original question. Be good to get a relevant reply.

I regard myself as 80-90% photographer, but 10-20% of my income is derived from writing; as such I'm published in some pretty good titles. However, I find stories of 'free' photography difficult to countenance; I know club magazines have small budgets..... but they don't have 'no budget'. Why should any photographer be in a position whereby they are virtually expected to deliver images for free, and at a decent level of quality? Does the magazine make no money at all? Of course not, or it would cease to exist.

Does the editor receive some benefit from it's publication? Of course: loan cars, event invites, perhaps a share of the advertising proceeds. Everyone who benefits should share in the spoils. And photographers should unite in insisting they want to be paid. The problem, of course, is that many up and coming snappers are duped into thinking that offering free shots will path their way to a new career - it has, and never will be, thus. By offering your shots for free, you're telling the editor that you place a value of £00.00 on our work, which is difficult to recover from. Sadly, there are some who will publish crap because it's cheap (ie; free), but if you genuinely want to make a living in the industry you need to charge proper money for your work. Your day rate should be £200 as a minimum, and don't expect to work loads. If it's a hobby, then please keep it as such, because every 'free' printed picture is robbing a professional of work that should be paid for. Photography isn't easy, no matter your subject matter, and cars are a tricky niche all of their own. It is, however, massively satisfying once you get it right, and well worth the years of low-to-no earnings whilst you figure out how to deliver what your client needs. Job meets hobby, generates income.

The freebies will always be rubbish, otherwise why would you be free. And you don't want to be rubbish, do you? Do YOU?.....

Digitalize

2,850 posts

134 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
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I've been doing it just over a year now, professionally, after doing a degree in it.

I don't really have much advice, do something you love, have a passion for, and just don't stop, the second you stop you're falling behind. Make yourself as fluid and helpful as possible, people don't want to work with anyone that makes work for them, no matter how good they are. Be polite, good at networking, and switched on. And just keep doing it. Specialise too, one or two areas.

I'd like to think that's worked for me so far, but who knows maybe all my editors/designers hate me and I'm hanging by the skin of my teeth!

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
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trackdemon said:
I'm breaking my personal rule of don't post online after you've been to the pub with mates, but... whatever.

I couldn't help but notice you responded with rhetoric of your own, which supports your own model, but ignored responding to the original question. Be good to get a relevant reply.

I regard myself as 80-90% photographer, but 10-20% of my income is derived from writing; as such I'm published in some pretty good titles. However, I find stories of 'free' photography difficult to countenance; I know club magazines have small budgets..... but they don't have 'no budget'. Why should any photographer be in a position whereby they are virtually expected to deliver images for free, and at a decent level of quality? Does the magazine make no money at all? Of course not, or it would cease to exist.

Does the editor receive some benefit from it's publication? Of course: loan cars, event invites, perhaps a share of the advertising proceeds. Everyone who benefits should share in the spoils. And photographers should unite in insisting they want to be paid. The problem, of course, is that many up and coming snappers are duped into thinking that offering free shots will path their way to a new career - it has, and never will be, thus. By offering your shots for free, you're telling the editor that you place a value of £00.00 on our work, which is difficult to recover from. Sadly, there are some who will publish crap because it's cheap (ie; free), but if you genuinely want to make a living in the industry you need to charge proper money for your work. Your day rate should be £200 as a minimum, and don't expect to work loads. If it's a hobby, then please keep it as such, because every 'free' printed picture is robbing a professional of work that should be paid for. Photography isn't easy, no matter your subject matter, and cars are a tricky niche all of their own. It is, however, massively satisfying once you get it right, and well worth the years of low-to-no earnings whilst you figure out how to deliver what your client needs. Job meets hobby, generates income.

The freebies will always be rubbish, otherwise why would you be free. And you don't want to be rubbish, do you? Do YOU?.....
I'm not sure you fully grasp the reasons why people contribute to club magazines.

You demand a share of the profits for those who contribute to the magazine. Does that go for other members of the club as well: chairman, regional organisers, the guy who does the accounts? In practice, if the club did pay all those who contributed, the result for all contributors would be virtually the same.

I belong to a rugby club. It is kept going through people who give up time and expertise to support it. We have two regular photographers who take photographs each match so that those who could not get there can enjoy the play vicariously. According to you, he should charge for his time and effort. We should also pay the chair, the other committee members, the coaches, the Safeguarding Officer, the touch judges, the chap who sells the programmes and the bloke who videos all the matches for the purposes of analysis.

We can't do that. We can, like most teams at our level, barely afford the few players we pay.

Are photographers in some way special in this scenario or should, perhaps, all the accountants join with them and go on strike? You seem to want to limit the freedom of action of those who wish to contribute.

It might come as a surprise but it wasn't all that often that I had so many cars to test that I couldn't find room to park my own car in my drive.

There is no expectation, no demand, no requirement; people volunteer, perhaps to give something back. It is what people do. All plans to make money out of photography should take the realities into consideration.

By the way, you suggest that freebies are always rubbish. Not so. As I pointed out, we had freebies from a top of the range pro. I've used images from keen amateurs that have been perfect for the magazine's needs. And that is the only criterion to judge a photograph for publication by: is it what the editor wants.

The only way to learn any skill is to do it and have someone else value it. Editors provide this function, free of charge. They either accept it or they don't. If it is the former, it is good, and if it is the latter, it is not good. You learn this whether you charge for your copy/images or not.

No one owes photographers a living and certainly not editors who have a choice of freebies that provide exactly what they want.

I understand where you are coming from, but you are ignoring the realities. Any business model must take the fact that people will provide photographs to publications purely for the thrill of seeing their work in print.


MartinP

1,275 posts

237 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
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There are always going to be talented amateur photographers prepared to give their images away for little or no payment. If you want to make a living from photography you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you are competing against those on a regular basis. It's also more fun if you can really enjoy the genre that you choose to shoot, rather than taking something you enjoyed as a hobby a turning it into a job that you hate.

You need to identify what genre to target, who your customers will be, how they are going to find you and what is your USP that will make them pick you. Then work out what your pricing will be, what products/services you'll offer, how many jobs you'll need to do to be able to pay yourself the salary that you want etc. Then comes the hard work of actually doing it and be prepared for the emotional roller coaster ride that follows...

It can be mighty satisfying though smile


Simpo Two

85,149 posts

264 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
quotequote all
Derek Smith said:
Small point: I didn't get paid.

I write professionally.
Apologies, I thought once that you said you were (not a living wage but a part of it). So, you're a professional writer who writes for free.

Did the printer print it for free too?

Derek Smith said:
There are thousands of amateurs out there who write for free.


Well they would wouldn't they!

RobDickinson

31,343 posts

253 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
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Perhaps if we had a thread entitled 'Not making money from photography' we could shift all this chat to there..

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Friday 2nd October 2015
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
Derek Smith said:
Small point: I didn't get paid.

I write professionally.
Apologies, I thought once that you said you were (not a living wage but a part of it). So, you're a professional writer who writes for free.

Did the printer print it for free too?

Derek Smith said:
There are thousands of amateurs out there who write for free.


Well they would wouldn't they!
I didn't get paid for editing the magazine. However, at the time, now and before, I wrote professionally.

I got a lot out of my four years. The most enjoyable benefit was the enjoyment. Others in the club talked of the magazine but I could say my magazine. I feel certain that the contributors all enjoyed contributing and seeing their work published.

I can now more or less predict the chances of a non-commissioned article being accepted. There's never 100% put there's pretty safe.

I think you misinterpret my use of amateur. I mean non-professional, in other words it is not their main or only source of income.

I consider myself a professional writer. I get paid for the majority of my work. I write in order to be published rather than for my own purposes. Most writers have other sources of income.

I also write for free on, for instance, PH. That said, I use PH. The best way to improve one's writing is to write and review. Social media, under which heading I'd include the PH forums, is excellent for practice. The different threads, on differing subjects, is good exercise. Further, one writing 'trick' when confronted by a blank Word doc that is reluctant to be filled is to write something else. I warm up on PH, flex my writing muscles, particularly before 10am.

So to be clear: I didn't get paid to edit the magazine. I got some, but by no means all, of my expenses paid. I am glad I edited the magazine and do not feel I am owed anything for volunteering. I went into the role for my own purposes and these were fulfilled.

Now I write either directly for money or as an exercise targeted at making money.

I also take a lot of photographs and take video, mainly to illustrate articles or for SEO purposes.

Customs and Excise are happy that I'm professional, given the fact that they allow my costs against income.

On the OP's point: the fact remains that you have to tune your output to the market if you want your writing or photography to support you. JK Rowlings are not thick on the ground. It is no good complaining about how things are. You need to work out where the market is and go there. The internet has good points and bad points for those who want copy or images published. One of my articles for a website was republished over 40 times in a month. I could either complain about that or use it on my CV. (I'm available for work by the way.)

There have never been so many photographers getting paid for their images despite everyone and their dog having cameras. The same goes for writers. The market moves on, perhaps not upwards all the time, but it does provide opportunities for those who are willing to be flexible.

If anyone wants to be a professional photographer or writer, then, as in all business ventures, study your market, find a slot that either is vacant or where you can be better than the majority, and go for it. Be active. Whilst having images on the likes of Getty, promotion is everything. Get out there and sell your work and yourself.