Making Money in Photography
Discussion
Simpo Two said:
BlimeyCharlie said:
BlimeyCharlie said:
My thoughts are that I have a 'mate' who is a 'photographer'. He fails to take any of his expenses into account (literally) but seems to think earning £200 is brilliant. It is, but not when it costs £300 to earn.
Assuming his gear is paid for, how does he spend £300 to earn £200?Take a straightforward article on something technical. You need to interview the manufacturer. His premises are located 370 miles away, round trip. You have to go because you want to illustrate the article and the images he's supplied are dreadful.
That's fuel, tyres, servicing, wear and tear. Your camera is already paid for but not the journey, the overnight stay, that's Premier Inn level. So journey costs and accommodation. Then there's the food costs at a services there and back.
You get offered £250 for the article. If you told yourself how much your really got from it you would never do it again.
Not to mention those time when the person refuses permission to use his company name or other copyrighted material just because he didn't like the 'tone' of the article. I.e. it included comparisons with the competition. No matter how you try to work around not using the company/product name, you are stuffed. A whole day, the journey, all wasted.
Derek Smith said:
Take a straightforward article on something technical. You need to interview the manufacturer. His premises are located 370 miles away, round trip. You have to go because you want to illustrate the article and the images he's supplied are dreadful.
That's fuel, tyres, servicing, wear and tear. Your camera is already paid for but not the journey, the overnight stay, that's Premier Inn level. So journey costs and accommodation. Then there's the food costs at a services there and back.
You get offered £250 for the article. If you told yourself how much your really got from it you would never do it again.
'Offered'? I've always worked on quotes and purchase orders, and charged mileage and accommodation on top. Speculation is folly.That's fuel, tyres, servicing, wear and tear. Your camera is already paid for but not the journey, the overnight stay, that's Premier Inn level. So journey costs and accommodation. Then there's the food costs at a services there and back.
You get offered £250 for the article. If you told yourself how much your really got from it you would never do it again.
BlimeyCharlie said:
It doesn't help he trumpets his 'work' as brilliant, when it is the opposite. Let other people decide if it is brilliant.
I really don't like photographers who have that attitude. I'd never go around and say that I'm amazing. I'm still on a learning curve and will be for some time. I know too well that there are plenty of photographers who are better than me anyway. Spending £300 to earn £200 sounds very confusing to me. Someone explain again haha.
£200 is a nice payment. I always thought that doing more shoots closer to home sounds better so you don't have to concern yourself with the fuel, tickets and accommodation. When you say about Premier Inn accommodation though, I do like Premier Inn.
One approach to making photography pay.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/business/peter-l...
How many snappers the marks in the market could support at the prices he charges (and allegedly achieves) has probably not yet been fully researched. There may be room for one or two more players.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/business/peter-l...
How many snappers the marks in the market could support at the prices he charges (and allegedly achieves) has probably not yet been fully researched. There may be room for one or two more players.
Edited by LongQ on Saturday 10th October 02:32
LongQ said:
One approach to making photography pay.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/business/peter-l...
How many snapper the marks in the market could support at the prices he charges (and allegedly achieves) has probably not yet been fully researched. There may be room for one or two more players.
Astonishing read. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/business/peter-l...
How many snapper the marks in the market could support at the prices he charges (and allegedly achieves) has probably not yet been fully researched. There may be room for one or two more players.
I'm so glad I started this thread; it's great to read people's thoughts on the subject.
I also might use it as a sort of monthly diary to document the start of my career for anyone interested in doing the same. I hope that isn't too self-indulgent.
I made a reasonable amount of money in my first month (Sept) as full time. I'm not talking full-time job money yet and I am working 50-60 hour weeks, but it was enough to pay my outgoings and have some left over. I had a few photoshoot jobs and several restoration jobs. I've also started working with a company who cold approached me about an app for my website as a quasi-designer. They tried to sell me an app and instead hired me. I've used PS for creating GUIs and logos so they're paying me to freelance that. I need to improve how much I'm bringing in if I am to make a living from all this, but it's a very encouraging start.
October has started well. I've provisionally booked 3 weddings and I have a meeting next week about a 4th despite not advertising or even mentioning weddings to anyone at any point. They all seem to have come off the back of a shoot I did 2 weeks ago which was slightly wedding-esque in places, albeit unintentionally for the most part. I've had a lot of restoration work come in which seems to mark the start of the Christmas rush I had a feeling might happen given people's interest. I've been setting up on every stock website which is time consuming. I think I will make around the same amount as last month unless something photography related unexpectedly comes in.
I had a dark start to the week if I'm honest. I had nothing coming in and very little in the pipeline. After a couple of hours of extreme doubt and moping, I started working on things for myself and by Thursday I had a lot going on.
Big thank you to Simpo who was on the phone to me yesterday for ages discussing how to approach wedding photography for the first time. Also, big thanks to Ed for his emails too.
As you were gents.
I also might use it as a sort of monthly diary to document the start of my career for anyone interested in doing the same. I hope that isn't too self-indulgent.
I made a reasonable amount of money in my first month (Sept) as full time. I'm not talking full-time job money yet and I am working 50-60 hour weeks, but it was enough to pay my outgoings and have some left over. I had a few photoshoot jobs and several restoration jobs. I've also started working with a company who cold approached me about an app for my website as a quasi-designer. They tried to sell me an app and instead hired me. I've used PS for creating GUIs and logos so they're paying me to freelance that. I need to improve how much I'm bringing in if I am to make a living from all this, but it's a very encouraging start.
October has started well. I've provisionally booked 3 weddings and I have a meeting next week about a 4th despite not advertising or even mentioning weddings to anyone at any point. They all seem to have come off the back of a shoot I did 2 weeks ago which was slightly wedding-esque in places, albeit unintentionally for the most part. I've had a lot of restoration work come in which seems to mark the start of the Christmas rush I had a feeling might happen given people's interest. I've been setting up on every stock website which is time consuming. I think I will make around the same amount as last month unless something photography related unexpectedly comes in.
I had a dark start to the week if I'm honest. I had nothing coming in and very little in the pipeline. After a couple of hours of extreme doubt and moping, I started working on things for myself and by Thursday I had a lot going on.
Big thank you to Simpo who was on the phone to me yesterday for ages discussing how to approach wedding photography for the first time. Also, big thanks to Ed for his emails too.
As you were gents.
Edited by RobbieKB on Saturday 10th October 12:09
thelittleegg said:
From reading this thread it sounds like going out as a photographer, it's a struggle, but if you have mixed skills or a speciality, then you've more of a chance.
Does anyone make anything from stock images? I figure you'll never make a living from them, but anything?
The top stock photographers make a living, but it's generally their full-time occupation. Many have staff to assist in shoots and to do all the keywording and uploading etc. I decided to have a go in 2007; shooting some images just for stock and uploading to several of the more popular "micro-stock" sites. I've earned around $15,000 in total from around 500 images, but don't upload much at the moment. Monthly earnings are decreasing because of that and as a result of less income/sale generally in the industry nowadays, and a massive increase in the size of stock libraries. Shutterstock for example, has over 60 million images online! It's hard to get your shots at the top of the searches.Does anyone make anything from stock images? I figure you'll never make a living from them, but anything?
I did enjoy the experience though and it made me work at improving my photography. Not a "get rich quick" area for most though, just a bit of pocket-money!
If it helps the RPS are running an event covering the business side of photography.
http://www.rps.org/events/2015/november/09/introdu...
http://www.rps.org/events/2015/november/09/introdu...
markmullen said:
If it helps the RPS are running an event covering the business side of photography.
http://www.rps.org/events/2015/november/09/introdu...
Lesson one: organize a conference for 200 notes per person. http://www.rps.org/events/2015/november/09/introdu...
I would actually really like to attend that, but although it may be considered shortsighted of me, I'm using my money on marketing and portfolio building at the moment. If anyone goes, let me know how worthwhile it was though. Perhaps I'll be able to justify it in the future.
I think that there is a market for decent lower level photography tuition. A lot of people buy very capable dslr cameras and don't really have a clue.
My wife went on a course, two Saturday mornings £50 and she did not learn much.
Or something like..
http://unshaken-photography.co.uk/short-photograph...
Clearly you have to put some effort into build a decent course.
D
My wife went on a course, two Saturday mornings £50 and she did not learn much.
Or something like..
http://unshaken-photography.co.uk/short-photograph...
Clearly you have to put some effort into build a decent course.
D
davidd said:
I think that there is a market for decent lower level photography tuition. A lot of people buy very capable dslr cameras and don't really have a clue.
My wife went on a course, two Saturday mornings £50 and she did not learn much.
Or something like..
http://unshaken-photography.co.uk/short-photograph...
Clearly you have to put some effort into build a decent course.
D
I thought the idea of the courses was to have a great expenses paid trip to some pleasant or exotic location, hopefully with some photographic potential. Best if funded by well heeled retirees who have similar travel desires and are happy to go home with something purporting to be Fine Art, taken with their own fair shutter finger, that they can hang on the wall as a conversation starter but will have cost them, all in, less than a Peter Lik.My wife went on a course, two Saturday mornings £50 and she did not learn much.
Or something like..
http://unshaken-photography.co.uk/short-photograph...
Clearly you have to put some effort into build a decent course.
D
The idea of flooding one's local market with former potential customers doing their own thing and providing a living for Photobox and Blurb seems a little counter productive. Of course doing that in someone else's patch may have some purpose .....
If one could great a paid for course that was more like a personal promotion exercise and led to additional lucrative work that might be different. So the idea has potential certainly, especially if the medium term objective is to move "up market" and use the sessions as a learning exercise for the darks arts of tuition.
As a form of "mass market" tuition (and I mean that in a kindly way) developed as an end product for the long term .... I'm not so sure. Direct it to towards mobile phone photography (at least in part) and it may have longer legs to stretch.
There is a market for tuition.
But you cant push students that fast in the field and only do so much at a go in classrooms. Some people really only can manage 1 or 2 ideas at a time and photograpy is a bunch of technical stuff that needs to come together into a creative expression.
Another outlet is online videos for training, either shooting or processing. You need a following for this to work but it can be good. I am hideous doing these though so havnt bothered
But you cant push students that fast in the field and only do so much at a go in classrooms. Some people really only can manage 1 or 2 ideas at a time and photograpy is a bunch of technical stuff that needs to come together into a creative expression.
Another outlet is online videos for training, either shooting or processing. You need a following for this to work but it can be good. I am hideous doing these though so havnt bothered
RobDickinson said:
There is a market for tuition.
But you cant push students that fast in the field and only do so much at a go in classrooms. Some people really only can manage 1 or 2 ideas at a time and photograpy is a bunch of technical stuff that needs to come together into a creative expression.
Another outlet is online videos for training, either shooting or processing. You need a following for this to work but it can be good. I am hideous doing these though so havnt bothered
Quite a few "names" in the UK seemed to get into the online tutorial/video market a few years ago. I have not followed developments so I have no idea if they are still active or, perhaps, have made fortunes and retired. But you cant push students that fast in the field and only do so much at a go in classrooms. Some people really only can manage 1 or 2 ideas at a time and photograpy is a bunch of technical stuff that needs to come together into a creative expression.
Another outlet is online videos for training, either shooting or processing. You need a following for this to work but it can be good. I am hideous doing these though so havnt bothered
I totally agree with you about pushing and not pushing considerations.
Does anybody start off with a Photography Appreciation Course?
I suspect that many people could get something from the outline understanding about how and why an image looks as it does. Why the nice portrait with a pleasantly out of focus background can be relatively easy to achieve (even by luck) with, say, a "dSLR" and the right lens and so much more challenging with a pocket camera or phone - unless software is deployed but even then ...
RobDickinson said:
There is a market for tuition.
But you cant push students that fast in the field and only do so much at a go in classrooms. Some people really only can manage 1 or 2 ideas at a time and photograpy is a bunch of technical stuff that needs to come together into a creative expression.
Another outlet is online videos for training, either shooting or processing. You need a following for this to work but it can be good. I am hideous doing these though so havnt bothered
I have used both types of training.But you cant push students that fast in the field and only do so much at a go in classrooms. Some people really only can manage 1 or 2 ideas at a time and photograpy is a bunch of technical stuff that needs to come together into a creative expression.
Another outlet is online videos for training, either shooting or processing. You need a following for this to work but it can be good. I am hideous doing these though so havnt bothered
The local one was an accompanied walk around a local city riverbank with around ten in a group. The trainer took us to the best vantage points and views, told us various settings and how to use live view focusing on a tripod (tbh not something I had done up to that point. There were three or four ladies in the group who were obviously repeat customers of his, and who got most of his time. I did find it useful for the tips and locations, it was a really good evening as far as I was concerned but the group was too big.
I have also used Karl Taylor's training videos and found them superb. I still refer to them and would recommend them without hesitation. He is just releasing a video on making money from photography. Maybe that is how you do it!
Over here in Aachen (Germany), all of our local camera shops work together to run beginner and intermediate courses, with the owners of the shops taking it in turns to share their years of knowledge and experience out to those attending. They do a pretty wide variety of topics too, and from memory each 2-5 hour course was capped at 49 euro other than some of the specialist topics where they would bring in outsiders from the industry.
Never been on any of them, but after seeing their event list when picking up a new lens a few years back I've recommended to a few work colleagues who previously came asking me for help with X/Y/Z after they returned from a weekend away without the photos they expected to come back with. Since then they've joined a few of the courses and instead of questions I now get photos from their weekend outings in my inbox instead (normally of trains, family members, pets and the occasional landscape)
I'm not suggesting coming to Aachen for a course, just to keep your eyes peeled as you may find similar courses being run by local shops or even community centres/colleges, usually allowing you a greater chance of direct feedback from the tutor(s) than some of the big events where it's a ratio of 50+ to 1.
p.s. Sounds like things are starting off well, the key to almost any small business is other people getting your name out there (positively) for you without you physically doing the legwork, that allows you to do your own advertising/setup work while at least a base income is coming in and growing from there. Keep up the good (hard) work!
Never been on any of them, but after seeing their event list when picking up a new lens a few years back I've recommended to a few work colleagues who previously came asking me for help with X/Y/Z after they returned from a weekend away without the photos they expected to come back with. Since then they've joined a few of the courses and instead of questions I now get photos from their weekend outings in my inbox instead (normally of trains, family members, pets and the occasional landscape)
I'm not suggesting coming to Aachen for a course, just to keep your eyes peeled as you may find similar courses being run by local shops or even community centres/colleges, usually allowing you a greater chance of direct feedback from the tutor(s) than some of the big events where it's a ratio of 50+ to 1.
p.s. Sounds like things are starting off well, the key to almost any small business is other people getting your name out there (positively) for you without you physically doing the legwork, that allows you to do your own advertising/setup work while at least a base income is coming in and growing from there. Keep up the good (hard) work!
I want to keep good to my word for both my own benefit and anyone else in a similar position, so here's my monthly update.
It feels at the moment as if my 'business plan' is working well, despite being the polar opposite of what trustworthy people advise. I am kind of throwing mud and seeing what sticks and then exploring what it stuck to. To be specific, I'm doing photography in a certain area for a reduced rate, then taking that job to other similar companies and offering my services. This has got me a few jobs and a lot of provisional work that may or may not materialise.
October wasn't bad in the grand scheme of things, but I just about scraped by paying my outgoings with nothing left over. It was almost all restoration work with one engagement shoot. The bright side to this is, November is looking as if it will be a good month.
I have booked 2 weddings and their deposits will land this month. I have booked an engagement shoot (who may book me for their wedding off the back of it), a portrait session with a personal trainer for his website, some restoration work, a family portrait and I picked up a job working with a watch company. They are a fairly new brand and I am doing some macro images of their watches and then some fashion editorial stuff. In addition to the cash, they gifted me one of their watches which was nice. I'm going to use my work for them to approach other watch companies, two of which I spoke to beforehand who want to hire me but couldn't do so without proof I have photographed watches commercially before.
I have real ups and downs with confidence, but I'd say I'm generally satisfied with how things are going. I anticipate that my lack of studio experience might halt the pace I want to move at and I'm not sure how to resolve that quite yet.
It feels at the moment as if my 'business plan' is working well, despite being the polar opposite of what trustworthy people advise. I am kind of throwing mud and seeing what sticks and then exploring what it stuck to. To be specific, I'm doing photography in a certain area for a reduced rate, then taking that job to other similar companies and offering my services. This has got me a few jobs and a lot of provisional work that may or may not materialise.
October wasn't bad in the grand scheme of things, but I just about scraped by paying my outgoings with nothing left over. It was almost all restoration work with one engagement shoot. The bright side to this is, November is looking as if it will be a good month.
I have booked 2 weddings and their deposits will land this month. I have booked an engagement shoot (who may book me for their wedding off the back of it), a portrait session with a personal trainer for his website, some restoration work, a family portrait and I picked up a job working with a watch company. They are a fairly new brand and I am doing some macro images of their watches and then some fashion editorial stuff. In addition to the cash, they gifted me one of their watches which was nice. I'm going to use my work for them to approach other watch companies, two of which I spoke to beforehand who want to hire me but couldn't do so without proof I have photographed watches commercially before.
I have real ups and downs with confidence, but I'd say I'm generally satisfied with how things are going. I anticipate that my lack of studio experience might halt the pace I want to move at and I'm not sure how to resolve that quite yet.
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