1988 S1 brake servo and master cylinder

1988 S1 brake servo and master cylinder

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Discussion

PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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Hi all,

I know there have been some other posts on this (so apologies if some of you are losing the will to live on the subject) and various opinions and info on tbe internet, but I'm still not 100% on the correct upgrade for my S1. Is the PSA328 servo correct...I've seen a couple for the £350 mark recently? Is there another servo and cylinder that requires slight mods only to fit and still retains the integrity of the original?

My understanding is that the early models were fitted with a saab master cylinder which had a remote resevoir and a fiesta servo..., so does mine look like all fiesta mk2/mk3?

Any advice welcome!!

Cheers,

PhilH

.


phillpot

17,105 posts

182 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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That looks different to all the later cars, possibly some S1's used parts from TVRs "Wedge" stocks?


Could be Cortina? Glenrobbo will probably be able to tell you more when he pops along.


mk1fan

10,512 posts

224 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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Surely the Ford Ka servo and master cylinder would suffice. £100 should get a very solid or NOS items of the bay where the e's live.

magpies

5,129 posts

181 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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mk1fan said:
Surely the Ford Ka servo and master cylinder would suffice. £100 should get a very solid or NOS items of the bay where the e's live.
These are fitted to more modern TVRs and this is what I've fitted to my S1 - note must be KA 'abs' type as they have the correct bore and not the non abs m/c.

NOTE: I'm not saying fitting this to your car is ok - also need to inform your insurer


Edited by magpies on Monday 27th October 20:31

PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Monday 27th October 2014
quotequote all
Thanks chaps.

Any particular date range on the ford Ka parts?

The cortina reference brings back fond memories....My father brought a 1.6 in navy blue must have been mid eighties, I can remember commenting just after he bought it on how I liked the way It whined louder and louder with acceleration and each gear change....don't think he was too impressed at the time!

The old girls don't whine like they used to!😄

AutoAndy

2,265 posts

214 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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Hi...in my earlier research, I found was that the options were Saab or Fiesta mk3.

Saab is easy to tell as the plastic reservoir was round and mounted on the end of a pipe on the bulk head. The Fiesta one was on top of the master cylinder, similar to yours but slightly different looking.

My S3 had a Saab one so no telling when they changed! I have heard, mainly from Glen, that S1s could have real odd ball variants, poss Cortina source.

The Saab ones are impossible to get and the Ford ones aren't much better. Have heard about Ka , but no experience of them. I hear that Griff and Chim owners also started with the Fiesta mk3s and are having the same problems... Not sure if they have sorted yet.

Good luck...

Edited by AutoAndy on Monday 27th October 21:19

magpies

5,129 posts

181 months

Monday 27th October 2014
quotequote all
the whole range of Ka only had two types of m/c abs and non abs. non abs ones have a smaller bore but the abs version has the same as the TVR S

PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Monday 27th October 2014
quotequote all
I've looked at some photos on ebay and it does look Cortina! Although the bore size is showing 20.6 so not the 22.2 people are saying is required.

Anyway I still need the servo so all Ka looks like the option.

Cheers everyone.

PhilH

glenrobbo

35,089 posts

149 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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Hi Phil,
Just got back on PH. had a hectic past few days!
Looking at your pic, your set-up looks the same as my S1, which is neither SAAB nor Fiesta. The secret to identifying lies in the numbers on the red plastic tag band on the master cylinder, which on mine are difficult to make out with certainty.
The best guess, so I have been told, is that it is 13/16" bore, probably from the Ford P100 pick-up, but whether this was the Cortina- or Sierra- based variant, I am unsure. It is possible that a Sierra servo may fit our early S1's. It is a lot deeper ( fatter? ) than the other two servo types, but with a smaller outside diameter.

I still have the original set-up, of which the servo is getting quite corroded.
I have obtained a new Fiesta servo from Holland, but these are unfortunately now sold out. I also have a second hand master cyl. from ebay, just need to get a replacenent seal kit. However, the original brake pipework will not stretch to fit the new part, so will also need replacing. Whether the servo operating rod from the pedal is compatible, I have yet to determine. I shall be tackling all this over winter.

The SAAB set-up on later S1's has a chunky cast master cyl like ours, bit with a remote brake fluid reservoir mounted on the bulkhead. Neither a currently available. This was superceded by the Fiesta set-up, with integral reservoir mounted on a machined tubular master cyl.
Replacing the SAAB servo with the Fiesta servo meant that you also had to fit a Fiesta master cyl. as well, because the two systems were incompatible. It is also necessary to re-drill the bulkhead mounting holes and open up the clevis pin hole in the pedal to suit the Fiesta operating rod.
To complicate matters, there are different Fiesta variations, I gather the correct one for use on the S is 22.2mm bore, non-abs master cyl. from the Fiesta Mk III

In our case, it is possible that a Sierra servo and master cyl MAY fit, but I cannot be certain until I source them to try out, hopefully in the near future. I would rather keep my S1 original, but still have the Fiesta bits as a back-up.

Basically, between us, we are breaking new ground here smile I'll post on here when I have further information.
Meanwhile, if you could try to decipher the code on the red band on your m/cyl, it could.be helpful to narrow the search for the origins.

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Monday 27th October 2014
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Speak to Keith @ Racetech. They've had some servos custom-made and we've tested one - it worked a treat! They've also had cast master cylinders made from scratch too.

Here's a pic (it won't let me post it directly for some reason!)

https://www.facebook.com/SouthwaysAutomotive/photo...

That's fitted to my own car. Haven't driven this one yet, but I've fitted another and driven that, and was more than happy with the result. I don't think they're going to be stupid money either, certainly not £350 anyway.

greymrj

3,316 posts

203 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
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Hi Phil, a lot of research was done on this in 2008, see
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
However, as predicted the availability of some of the alternative parts has now become just as difficult.
The above article, which then formed the basis of an article in Sprint, will still give you important details regarding the original fitments, or at least as far as we knew at the time!

Since then Glenrobbo recognised that his was an as yet undefined system, not SAAB as had been believed to be the case for all S1's. I did try to identify Glen's set up but we did not have sufficient information to make a definitive identification.

Yours isnt SAAB and does not appear Fiesta either! I agree that it does look like the pictures Glan sent me of his car. Difficult to say from what I can see so far but both your car and Glen's appear to have a rather squarer look to the section of the servo, while the SAAB and Fiesta servos (which have identical outer shells) are more tapered to the outside.

Do you think you could send me a better picture (I cannot blow that one up to see enough detail). If you could get the number from the red tag it might help confirm the master cylinder fitted, we couldnt get it all clearly from Glen.

I wonder also if you could both let me have chassis numbers for your cars to see if there is evidence that a batch of cars were made with this different system. Do you both believe the systems fitted are likely to be original, or is there any evidence that someone has already changed them?
I take it the label I can see on your servo doesnt provide any info? It doesnt for example suggest the servo supplier? (in which case it is almost certainly not original)

Personally I do not believe that these are Sierra components, although it would be nice to be proved wrong. The TRW/Lucas data DVD does not show Sierra options which appear compatible with the performance of the SAAB or Fiesta set ups.
I suppose it is just possible that Cortina units might have been used but as the Cortina ceased production in 1982 and the S1 was essentially a 1988 car that doesnt seem too likely. The TRW/Lucas data I have does not go back that far, but I do have Lockheed/Delphi going back to Cortina Mk111 and nothing their looks promising.

I have said all I have to say about using a great deal of care in the selection of alternative brake parts, some people already see me as a prophet of doom! But do please ensure you do it right, we cannot afford to lose any S's! And, as advised above, notify your insurer. This is definitely a notifiable change.

glenrobbo

35,089 posts

149 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
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Hi Richard wavey
I just tried to send you a lengthy mms message, but it won't send, so I sent a short text with Austin's chassis no.

That label on our servos is just info about correct brake fluid type, nothing about maker's name or part no.
I do believe that our installations are original, there is nothing in the comprehensive service history to suggest it has been replaced.

The earliest S was a 1986 car, the first batch was 1987/ early '88, and I wonder if producion of Cortina- based P100's carried on for a while after 1982?
It's not inconceivable that TVR bought a batch of surplus stock servos & m/cylinders after Ford no longer required them. Which could well mean that Phil & I are blessed with Cortina items, not Sierra. Unless the P100 set-up was type specific. Is there anything about this in your Lockheed/ Delphi data file?
I need to have a look at a Sierra servo for a physical comparison, perhaps that would eliminate it from the search. The Classic Car Show should present ab opportunity to narrow down the search. smile

Finally, I wonder which set-up was used on the Wedges?

Don't you just love TVR's? biggrin

PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all
Guy's thanks for the posts.

I'm glad I'm not the only one struggling to identify this!

I'm hoping that glenrobbo and I do have the same set-up and that I may be able to help shed some more light on it. I have the code from the band which is pretty clear 66231 02 38/62 380 W. The 0 at the end looks more like a closed bracket ) but I'm thinking its probably a slight miss-stamp.

I've looked through a ton of Tvr websites and no doubt the S series especially the 1 is not as well represented as say the chim's and Griff's! Yep I've checked out Racetech quite a few times but didn't know that Kitchski so thanks will give them a call.

One thing I can say with confidence is that the servo and cylinder must be original, not just because of the lousy condition but that I have all the history (including each owner) and all the major components that have been changed. looking under the bonnet not much has been, but as glenrobbo pointed out some of us (everyone to their own though) like to keep it as original as possible. I finding myself getting quite OCD trying to source original parts and attempting to bring her up to her former glory.

Yes no problem greymrj I'll send the chassis number over this evening and I'll send a few more shots which may be a bit clearer although probably still upside down!biggrin


PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all

PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all

glenrobbo

35,089 posts

149 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all
Nice one Phil, your red tag numbers tally with mine for the first 11 digits, threafter mine are indistinct, but could be ..... 29 IN W instead of your ....380 W.

Also there is a number on my master cyl, 746602947 0318 .
This is a body casting number and the cyl. can have one of various bore sizes machined into it, which is identified by the tag number & colour.
Also I think it may be a Girling part?

For information, the 13/16" bore size, which I suspect ours to be, is 0.812", or 20.6mm.
This is smaller than the usual 22.2mm ( 0.874" ) bore used on the later S / Fiesta Mk III m/cyls.

N.B. This information is just what I have gleaned to date from various sources, and should not be considered definative without confirmation. I can accept no responsibility for incorrect information unwittingly given.

Good luck!
Glen.

PhilH73

Original Poster:

63 posts

113 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all


What do you think Glenrobbo?

Its a Girling Mk3 Cortina servo.

Edited by PhilH73 on Tuesday 28th October 13:32

greymrj

3,316 posts

203 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all
This is indeed intriguing, and you do indeed learn something every day! The Ford P100 was in production, not necessarily just in the UK, well into the S era and only petered out in 1994.

According to the Lockheed/Delphi 2005/6 parts schedule (which is a whole 1328 pages long!) there was only ever 1 servo/mastercylinder listed for the P100, and it was Lucas with a 22.2mm cylinder bore! (To remind me later, the L/D ref is LM39027).

That contrasts with the Sierra in that period which lists 5 different fitment options, two from Lucas and three from Bendix! Now I come to think of it I remember this period when Ford were using different suppliers for the same vehicle and the service side got very confusing.

Of those five options, one of them (and it appears to have been a minor one) was the same as the P100. (LM39027). Frustratingly it appears to have been on a minority of 1.6, 1.8 and 2.0 Sierras but not on the V6's!

I am just going to note, for reference, that this servo/mastercylinder, nor one with these dimensions, is common with the Cortina.

Nothing very definitive yet, and we must remember that Lockheed/Delphi were not original parts suppliers for these cars. I will try to find time to pursue this further using the Lucas/TRW parts DVD's and see if cross reference is possible and I can arrive at a TRW number to check for currency. So far I have not been able to find pictures, which is not surprising given the number of variants, of the servo or mastercylinder. concerned.

glenrobbo

35,089 posts

149 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
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A couple of pics of Austin's brake set-up....






glenrobbo

35,089 posts

149 months

Tuesday 28th October 2014
quotequote all
PhilH73 said:


What do you think Glenrobbo?

Its a Mk3 Cortina servo.
That looks very promising Phil. smile
Where did you find that?

I'd like to see a Sierra servo for comparison.

I wonder if Richard can come up with the final solution. ( He's like a dog with a bone when he gets a problem to solve ) wink