Pinch bolts for steering column U/J
Discussion
Good morning, I have recently had some issue with my UJ's which may/may not be of interest.
I got an advisory at last year's mot, but by this winter the steering was actually scary at speed!
I finally put car on the ramps to do a check and found play in both UJ's. I cranked up the torque on all pinch bolts, but no improvement. So, ordered a set or replacement UJ's and bolts (I used the same bolts as You with nylocs.)
What I found after removal was that the top UJ was totally shot (ie. I could twist it and see a large amount of play). The lower UJ however did not have any visible play in it (ie. I couldn't twist it). The problem with the lower UJ was that despite giving the bolts a large amount of torque, it simply would not clamp firmly onto the shaft. This was the cast/forged lower UJ which I know others have used. My replacement was a pressed steel type, which clearly by it's design will 'give' a little when you tighten the bolts, so to me, this is a better option. The manufacturer (I think it was Rally Design) no longer sell the cast/forged type. I think that says a lot!!.
So, in summary, I think your bolts are correct, but maybe this is not the problem. Suffice to say, my steering has been transformed.
Hope this is useful,
Graham
I got an advisory at last year's mot, but by this winter the steering was actually scary at speed!
I finally put car on the ramps to do a check and found play in both UJ's. I cranked up the torque on all pinch bolts, but no improvement. So, ordered a set or replacement UJ's and bolts (I used the same bolts as You with nylocs.)
What I found after removal was that the top UJ was totally shot (ie. I could twist it and see a large amount of play). The lower UJ however did not have any visible play in it (ie. I couldn't twist it). The problem with the lower UJ was that despite giving the bolts a large amount of torque, it simply would not clamp firmly onto the shaft. This was the cast/forged lower UJ which I know others have used. My replacement was a pressed steel type, which clearly by it's design will 'give' a little when you tighten the bolts, so to me, this is a better option. The manufacturer (I think it was Rally Design) no longer sell the cast/forged type. I think that says a lot!!.
So, in summary, I think your bolts are correct, but maybe this is not the problem. Suffice to say, my steering has been transformed.
Hope this is useful,
Graham
Sandgrounder said:
Good morning, I have recently had some issue with my UJ's which may/may not be of interest.
I got an advisory at last year's mot, but by this winter the steering was actually scary at speed!
I finally put car on the ramps to do a check and found play in both UJ's. I cranked up the torque on all pinch bolts, but no improvement. So, ordered a set or replacement UJ's and bolts (I used the same bolts as You with nylocs.)
What I found after removal was that the top UJ was totally shot (ie. I could twist it and see a large amount of play). The lower UJ however did not have any visible play in it (ie. I couldn't twist it). The problem with the lower UJ was that despite giving the bolts a large amount of torque, it simply would not clamp firmly onto the shaft. This was the cast/forged lower UJ which I know others have used. My replacement was a pressed steel type, which clearly by it's design will 'give' a little when you tighten the bolts, so to me, this is a better option. The manufacturer (I think it was Rally Design) no longer sell the cast/forged type. I think that says a lot!!.
So, in summary, I think your bolts are correct, but maybe this is not the problem. Suffice to say, my steering has been transformed.
Hope this is useful,
Graham
Thanks Graham, I forgot to mention I'd replaced the U/J with a Rally Design forged one, but as the old one was also forged I didn't think this could be the source of the problem. I'm going to call them today to see if they have any advice.I got an advisory at last year's mot, but by this winter the steering was actually scary at speed!
I finally put car on the ramps to do a check and found play in both UJ's. I cranked up the torque on all pinch bolts, but no improvement. So, ordered a set or replacement UJ's and bolts (I used the same bolts as You with nylocs.)
What I found after removal was that the top UJ was totally shot (ie. I could twist it and see a large amount of play). The lower UJ however did not have any visible play in it (ie. I couldn't twist it). The problem with the lower UJ was that despite giving the bolts a large amount of torque, it simply would not clamp firmly onto the shaft. This was the cast/forged lower UJ which I know others have used. My replacement was a pressed steel type, which clearly by it's design will 'give' a little when you tighten the bolts, so to me, this is a better option. The manufacturer (I think it was Rally Design) no longer sell the cast/forged type. I think that says a lot!!.
So, in summary, I think your bolts are correct, but maybe this is not the problem. Suffice to say, my steering has been transformed.
Hope this is useful,
Graham
It was also clearly a long day yesterday as I didn't check the Bolt list on the forum before posting!
I also fitted the Rally Design forged lower u/j and have experienced the same problem. The u/j is such a substantial lump that it takes a colossal torque on the nuts & bolts to close up the slots and clamp onto the splines.
I think the bolts are stretching. This causes concern because it means the bolts must be approaching their yield point.
My old worn lower u/j was a cast/forged design, but altogether a much more dainty item which clamped effectively with far fewer white knuckles of torque.
I'm thinking of contacting RD and asking for their comments. I consider this to be a safety issue.
Another thing, there is not a lot of clearance between the bolt tails and the chassis when you fit this oversize u/j, I shortened my 8mm HT bolts so there was just a couple of threads protruding from the nut, which gave just enough clearance over a full revolution of the steering shaft.
I think the bolts are stretching. This causes concern because it means the bolts must be approaching their yield point.
My old worn lower u/j was a cast/forged design, but altogether a much more dainty item which clamped effectively with far fewer white knuckles of torque.
I'm thinking of contacting RD and asking for their comments. I consider this to be a safety issue.
Another thing, there is not a lot of clearance between the bolt tails and the chassis when you fit this oversize u/j, I shortened my 8mm HT bolts so there was just a couple of threads protruding from the nut, which gave just enough clearance over a full revolution of the steering shaft.
I got the pressed steel lower UJ from Rally Design. Rally Design have stopped selling the cast block (or at least, they had a month ago).
As is typical, I tidied may garage two days ago and threw the packaging/receipt away, so I can't give the Part No. but just phone them back and get them to describe the lower UJ to you!! I certainly wouldn't be modifying a part that is supposed to fit.
You have to phone them because it is not easy to find UJ's using their search facility!!!
Good luck.
As is typical, I tidied may garage two days ago and threw the packaging/receipt away, so I can't give the Part No. but just phone them back and get them to describe the lower UJ to you!! I certainly wouldn't be modifying a part that is supposed to fit.
You have to phone them because it is not easy to find UJ's using their search facility!!!
Good luck.
Car Builder Solutions have come to our rescue again, they are a VERY useful company! See page 55, item UJP3 in their current catalogue. Pressed steel universal steering joint WITH FORD SIERRA TRIANGLE END!!!!
http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/steering-uni...
Loads of other useful steering components and hundredss of other bits to keep our S's on the road.
http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/steering-uni...
Loads of other useful steering components and hundredss of other bits to keep our S's on the road.
greymrj said:
Car Builder Solutions have come to our rescue again, they are a VERY useful company! See page 55, item UJP3 in their current catalogue. Pressed steel universal steering joint WITH FORD SIERRA TRIANGLE END!!!!
http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/steering-uni...
Loads of other useful steering components and hundredss of other bits to keep our S's on the road.
And that U/J looks just as shiny in real life. I've bought this along with the lower U/J from CBS and will be fitting them this weekend.http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/steering-uni...
Loads of other useful steering components and hundredss of other bits to keep our S's on the road.
Just a point that might be worth adding. Obviously you need to use a high tensile bolt for the pinch bolt. What is sometimes forgotten is that you need to use a high tensile NUT as well. If the nut is not a high tensile one then the threads can stretch and deform limiting the torque and risking the nut eventually coming adrift.
If you buy from CBS then ask for Chris and ask him to supply a matched high tensile bolt and nylock nut at the same time. This was discussed at Stoneleigh and it was less than £2 extra incl.
I hope it works OK for you foot2firewall and that you report back.
If you buy from CBS then ask for Chris and ask him to supply a matched high tensile bolt and nylock nut at the same time. This was discussed at Stoneleigh and it was less than £2 extra incl.
I hope it works OK for you foot2firewall and that you report back.
greymrj said:
Just a point that might be worth adding. Obviously you need to use a high tensile bolt for the pinch bolt. What is sometimes forgotten is that you need to use a high tensile NUT as well. If the nut is not a high tensile one then the threads can stretch and deform limiting the torque and risking the nut eventually coming adrift.
If you buy from CBS then ask for Chris and ask him to supply a matched high tensile bolt and nylock nut at the same time. This was discussed at Stoneleigh and it was less than £2 extra incl.
I hope it works OK for you foot2firewall and that you report back.
All the pinch bolts and nuts I have fitted are high tensile, but I agree the nut is easily overlooked (as I almost did). Both CBS UJ's fitted easily, although it did take some grease and a bit of leverage to get the clamping plate across the face of the steering column the first time on the top shiny UJ, after that it was fine. The only real problem I had with the top UJ was that the angle of the UJ meant that the casings rubbed against each other at certain points when I turned the steering wheel. I tried pushing the top UJ further up the steering column and pushing the bottom UJ further down, all in an attempt to reduce the angle. But in the end I had to take a Dremel to the casing and remove some metal for clearance. Its all on this thread: http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... regards JustinIf you buy from CBS then ask for Chris and ask him to supply a matched high tensile bolt and nylock nut at the same time. This was discussed at Stoneleigh and it was less than £2 extra incl.
I hope it works OK for you foot2firewall and that you report back.
What is "high tensile"?
In automotive terms I think of 8.8 as "standard" and 10.9 (and above) as "high tensile".
But a quick search on Ebay suggests a lot of sellers term 8.8 as "high tensile", which I guess you could argue it is compared to the nuts 'n bolts you get with a kids climbing frame or garden swing!
Thanks for the feedback Justin, any chance of sending me a picture by PM so I can refer the issue to CBS, they may be able to get their supplier to modify slightly.
I take it that you had no problems getting the joints to tighten up on the shafts, which is a problem we have had with other joints? Glad it worked out OK for you. 
Regarding what qualifies as HT, looks like you were trained to be careful Mike! Virtually everything on a car is under enough load to justify high tensile so it makes sense to specify 8.8, which is the usual spec for high tensile bolts. Higher tensile ones certainly exist, those on the drive shaft joints are 12.6 from memory and the special conrod bolts Burton supply for our engines are way higher than that! It is however so easy to see 8.8 on the bolt, then fit it with a mild steel nut, even a nicely plated mild steel nut!
I take it that you had no problems getting the joints to tighten up on the shafts, which is a problem we have had with other joints? Glad it worked out OK for you. Regarding what qualifies as HT, looks like you were trained to be careful Mike! Virtually everything on a car is under enough load to justify high tensile so it makes sense to specify 8.8, which is the usual spec for high tensile bolts. Higher tensile ones certainly exist, those on the drive shaft joints are 12.6 from memory and the special conrod bolts Burton supply for our engines are way higher than that! It is however so easy to see 8.8 on the bolt, then fit it with a mild steel nut, even a nicely plated mild steel nut!
greymrj said:
Thanks for the feedback Justin, any chance of sending me a picture by PM so I can refer the issue to CBS, they may be able to get their supplier to modify slightly. I take it that you had no problems getting the joints to tighten up on the shafts, which is a problem we have had with other joints? Glad it worked out OK for you.
Regarding what qualifies as HT, looks like you were trained to be careful Mike! Virtually everything on a car is under enough load to justify high tensile so it makes sense to specify 8.8, which is the usual spec for high tensile bolts. Higher tensile ones certainly exist, those on the drive shaft joints are 12.6 from memory and the special conrod bolts Burton supply for our engines are way higher than that! It is however so easy to see 8.8 on the bolt, then fit it with a mild steel nut, even a nicely plated mild steel nut!
I'll take some pictures tomorrow, although of course I have now removed some metal it won't be so obvious, but it will show the angle of the UJ. I take it that you had no problems getting the joints to tighten up on the shafts, which is a problem we have had with other joints? Glad it worked out OK for you. Regarding what qualifies as HT, looks like you were trained to be careful Mike! Virtually everything on a car is under enough load to justify high tensile so it makes sense to specify 8.8, which is the usual spec for high tensile bolts. Higher tensile ones certainly exist, those on the drive shaft joints are 12.6 from memory and the special conrod bolts Burton supply for our engines are way higher than that! It is however so easy to see 8.8 on the bolt, then fit it with a mild steel nut, even a nicely plated mild steel nut!
I had no problem with tightening the joint up on the shaft - which is exactly the problem I had with the previous one from RD (who for the record immediately refunded me when I got in touch with them.)
Regarding the high tensile nuts - I almost used some nuts left over from a cheap nut & bolt pack I bought from a DIY shed (bought for DIY not the car) and the bolts are unmarked, so I assumed them to be mild steel and almost forgot the nuts to likely be the same.
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