at the end of my tether with my 'S'
Discussion
greyhulk said:
I've been told to check the coil & ignition module so hopefully one of them may be the cause.
how are you going to "check" those? Would a problem with either of them be likely to cause a "one off" stop then work ok for rest of journey, which is how I understand your problem?I don't know
looking at the wiring diagram that could involve Cold Start injector (try unplugging it?), Thermotime Switch or Hot Start Module?
There are some guys on here with good knowledge and experience of that engine, greymrj, barry, glen...... heed their advice rather than the "bloke down the pub who knows a bit about cars"
remember, it's an old car, it will have the odd "issue", but stick with it the fun far out weighs the grief
@phillpot thanks for the advice, I have spoke with greymrj he said to consider the ignition module & coils.
Shall have a chat with Barry at car show on Saturday as the NEC is 10mins away from me
It's difficult because im relaying the info back & forth to mechanic as I'm not clued up working around engine area
Shall have a chat with Barry at car show on Saturday as the NEC is 10mins away from me
It's difficult because im relaying the info back & forth to mechanic as I'm not clued up working around engine area
greyhulk said:
im relaying the info back & forth to mechanic as I'm not clued up working around engine area
Sounds like your mechanic isn't either My last resort is to stick it in your garage, don't go near it for at least a week, and it will fix itself.....
caveat emptor .....this doesn't always work
Edited by phillpot on Thursday 12th November 09:46
At whatever hourly rate they charge I guess it depends on just how quick they can get to the problem and parts price/availability
Sometimes it's maybe worth "biting the bullet" and getting it done, almost irrespective of cost, if it is spoiling your enjoyment of the car?
Providing that after a chat with them you are confident they can sort it without multiple return visits (and bills)!
If you do go for this option I'm in Redditch, work shifts so happy to help out with if I can with dropping it off, lifts home etc.
Carefully follow Richard's ( greymrj ) instructions, as he probably knows more about the Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection system than most of us on here.
However, like Phillpot, I'm not sure that the coil or ign module is at fault if the engine runs fine once warmed up.
Following that, it is worth having a look at the Cold Start relay ( green ) that nestles amongst a load of wires in the rainwater run-off channel between the outside of the passenger footwell and the inner wheel arch. ( It's not the best place for a relay to live! ) Unplug it, clean it up, check the contacts and the socket base, and carefully prize off the plastic cover without breaking it. If you find it is full off water, this is not helping. It may be salvageable by spraying with WD40 and then a solvent contact cleaner spray. Check the little internal contacts are not pitted, burnt or corroded. If they are, then a good replacement relay is needed.
Other components to consider are the warm-up regulator, the auxiliary air device, the fuel start valve ( cold start injector ) and the thermotime switch. All of these affect cold running of the engine.
Be systematic when diagnosing the problem and don't assume that if you have replaced a part, that the replacement is not itself defective. It has been known.
If the engine is hunting and stalling when coming to a standstill, get the mixture checked and set up properly. This needs to be done properly by a proper mechanic ideally familiar with Ford 2.8 Capri, Granada or Sierra engines ( doesn't have to be a TVR specialist ), using an exhaust gas analyser ( coupled to a probe up the exhaust ). The mixture is adjusted using a long 3mm Allen key inserted in a deep hole in the black plastic cover of the fuel distributor air plate sensor. Any adjustment should be made in small increments, as it is very sensitive. The Allen key should be withdrawn each time to avoid its' weight affecting the position of the air sensor plate.
As previously mentioned, once sorted, it will be worth all the trouble, these are great little cars.
Oh, and get yourself a copy of the "Bible", The TVR S Series by Steve Heath. 2nd Edition is best. Keep an eye on Ebay, Amazon, or Abe Books. An invaluable guide.
Good luck Steve,
Probably see you at the NEC on Saturday. TVRCC Stand, Noon. Bring biscuits.
However, like Phillpot, I'm not sure that the coil or ign module is at fault if the engine runs fine once warmed up.
Following that, it is worth having a look at the Cold Start relay ( green ) that nestles amongst a load of wires in the rainwater run-off channel between the outside of the passenger footwell and the inner wheel arch. ( It's not the best place for a relay to live! ) Unplug it, clean it up, check the contacts and the socket base, and carefully prize off the plastic cover without breaking it. If you find it is full off water, this is not helping. It may be salvageable by spraying with WD40 and then a solvent contact cleaner spray. Check the little internal contacts are not pitted, burnt or corroded. If they are, then a good replacement relay is needed.
Other components to consider are the warm-up regulator, the auxiliary air device, the fuel start valve ( cold start injector ) and the thermotime switch. All of these affect cold running of the engine.
Be systematic when diagnosing the problem and don't assume that if you have replaced a part, that the replacement is not itself defective. It has been known.
If the engine is hunting and stalling when coming to a standstill, get the mixture checked and set up properly. This needs to be done properly by a proper mechanic ideally familiar with Ford 2.8 Capri, Granada or Sierra engines ( doesn't have to be a TVR specialist ), using an exhaust gas analyser ( coupled to a probe up the exhaust ). The mixture is adjusted using a long 3mm Allen key inserted in a deep hole in the black plastic cover of the fuel distributor air plate sensor. Any adjustment should be made in small increments, as it is very sensitive. The Allen key should be withdrawn each time to avoid its' weight affecting the position of the air sensor plate.
As previously mentioned, once sorted, it will be worth all the trouble, these are great little cars.
Oh, and get yourself a copy of the "Bible", The TVR S Series by Steve Heath. 2nd Edition is best. Keep an eye on Ebay, Amazon, or Abe Books. An invaluable guide.
Good luck Steve,
Probably see you at the NEC on Saturday. TVRCC Stand, Noon. Bring biscuits.
Edited by glenrobbo on Thursday 12th November 12:34
Any other S1 2.8 owner reading this, just a quick note.
The 2.8 is very different to the 2.9; different heads, cam, timing, ignition system, injection, management. Do not assume that a garage which has worked on the later and more numerous 2.9 EFi engine will have a clue about the older 2.8. The guys who know them are getting few and far between, and worth getting to know.
Always eliminate spark problems on the 2.8 BEFORE messing with the K Jetronic, the injection system is far simpler. When you are SURE that is right then it is time to get involved in the black art of K Jet systems.
If the 2.8 engine starts and runs OK then will not restart after stalling or stopping, then suspect a heat related problem with the ignition which is causing the spark to weaken or even fail completely. That can be enough to allow the engine to stall at low revs when hot . Eliminate this first. These cars are 25 years old, if the coil or ignition module is original then it is well past its sell by date. These fail with time and heat.
The coil on the 2.8 is often mounted on the plenum, this is fundamentally bad idea as it is directly heated by the engine. Move it off the engine. Not so much of a problem on a Granada with its big engine bay and big rad, but the outside of the S1 engine itself is not as well cooled.
If you suspect a possible weak spark problem then it might be worth running the car in the driveway with the bonnet open which will keep the module from heating up (and the coil, though to a lesser extent). When hot switch off and try to restart. If the problem has disappeared then I would strongly suspect the module.
The Steve Heath bible completely misses the role of the ignition module on the 2.8! The wiring diagram does show it correctly, and the relationship of the wiring to the distributor.
There is one exception to the 'dont mess with the K Jet first' rule. If it fails to restart when hot just check if there is a strong smell of petrol from the exhaust. If so then try disconnecting the cold start unit (blue connector, top offside of plenum chamber). Turn the engine over a few times and if it starts to fire then the cold start has been cutting in when it shouldnt. This is a known fault and can be annoyingly intermittent.
Glenrobbo is quite right about adjusting the mixture and the care necessary with the allen key BUT, a word of warning. Before you adjust it just think a bit first. If the mixture has gone out of adjustment then why has it gone out of adjustment. Be very sure there isnt another problem, such as an air flow or air leak problem, first because once you have adjusted that screw, and that WASNT the problem, it will be a devil of a job to get the settings right again. (Been there, done that, got the dirty T shirt!)
The 2.8 is very different to the 2.9; different heads, cam, timing, ignition system, injection, management. Do not assume that a garage which has worked on the later and more numerous 2.9 EFi engine will have a clue about the older 2.8. The guys who know them are getting few and far between, and worth getting to know.
Always eliminate spark problems on the 2.8 BEFORE messing with the K Jetronic, the injection system is far simpler. When you are SURE that is right then it is time to get involved in the black art of K Jet systems.
If the 2.8 engine starts and runs OK then will not restart after stalling or stopping, then suspect a heat related problem with the ignition which is causing the spark to weaken or even fail completely. That can be enough to allow the engine to stall at low revs when hot . Eliminate this first. These cars are 25 years old, if the coil or ignition module is original then it is well past its sell by date. These fail with time and heat.
The coil on the 2.8 is often mounted on the plenum, this is fundamentally bad idea as it is directly heated by the engine. Move it off the engine. Not so much of a problem on a Granada with its big engine bay and big rad, but the outside of the S1 engine itself is not as well cooled.
If you suspect a possible weak spark problem then it might be worth running the car in the driveway with the bonnet open which will keep the module from heating up (and the coil, though to a lesser extent). When hot switch off and try to restart. If the problem has disappeared then I would strongly suspect the module.
The Steve Heath bible completely misses the role of the ignition module on the 2.8! The wiring diagram does show it correctly, and the relationship of the wiring to the distributor.
There is one exception to the 'dont mess with the K Jet first' rule. If it fails to restart when hot just check if there is a strong smell of petrol from the exhaust. If so then try disconnecting the cold start unit (blue connector, top offside of plenum chamber). Turn the engine over a few times and if it starts to fire then the cold start has been cutting in when it shouldnt. This is a known fault and can be annoyingly intermittent.
Glenrobbo is quite right about adjusting the mixture and the care necessary with the allen key BUT, a word of warning. Before you adjust it just think a bit first. If the mixture has gone out of adjustment then why has it gone out of adjustment. Be very sure there isnt another problem, such as an air flow or air leak problem, first because once you have adjusted that screw, and that WASNT the problem, it will be a devil of a job to get the settings right again. (Been there, done that, got the dirty T shirt!)
Happy to be shot down in flames here as I am no expert and nowhere near as knowledgeable as some of these guys but many many moons ago I had a 2.8 Granada Ghia (nice car and I loved it) but I had a very similar sounding issue with that. It would run absolutely fine and then cut out every now and again and then refused to start.
Suspecting ignition problems, I took the distributor cap off and found that it had condensation inside. A quick wipe out with a rag and it would start again without a problem. I never got to the bottom of why the dizzy cap used to get damp in it (it wasn't cracked or anything) but this worked every time.
Thought it might be worth adding, just in case, but have no idea whether this is relevant or not.
Incidentally, my car was carb fed and not fuel injected. Again, not sure if this makes a difference.
Andy
Suspecting ignition problems, I took the distributor cap off and found that it had condensation inside. A quick wipe out with a rag and it would start again without a problem. I never got to the bottom of why the dizzy cap used to get damp in it (it wasn't cracked or anything) but this worked every time.
Thought it might be worth adding, just in case, but have no idea whether this is relevant or not.
Incidentally, my car was carb fed and not fuel injected. Again, not sure if this makes a difference.
Andy
It is just possible, in theory at least, for the air pressure in the distributor to change as the pressure in the engine changes. It shouldn't happen but can with a worn distributor. In theory the distributor head isnt air tight so it should vent out OK. But it could lead to persistent condensation in the distributor. Never actually heard of it as a 2.8 Cologne problem but these are now very old engines so it is a possibility.
As always guys thank you for sharing your knowledge, the more I read up about this issue the more I think maybe the 'ignition module' is the culprit, as greymrj first pointed out.
If this isn't the cause then the chat i had with adrien earlier will point me in the direction of the cold start injector, thermo time switch
If this isn't the cause then the chat i had with adrien earlier will point me in the direction of the cold start injector, thermo time switch
greyhulk said:
Are you going NEC car show too?
No, it is a very big and busy show, lots to see (if you can get near anything)... not really my thing.If yo are going (i have been before) I'd strongly suggest getting there as the doors open, this will give you a couple of relatively quiet hours, it'll be rammed by midday ........... enjoy
So I just fitted new ht leads, i noticed when taking out the old ones there was one that looked slightly broke & two which weren't numbered, got my 'S' bible out, put the new ht leads in as shown, ran car for a good 30minutes 1. No overheating with the new fan auto kicking in at 80° (finally) & 2. It did not cut out what so ever.. Now everytime I've ran the car within 5mins or less it cuts out, could the dodgy ht lead or maybe two mixed up wrong way round have been the cause?
greyhulk said:
one that looked slightly broke
The one you're holding?that is like that to fit in the angled cover, presumably that is the one to the coil?
greyhulk said:
could two mixed up wrong way round have been the cause?
that would give a constant and very noticeable mis-fire as soon as the engine started, if it would start at all (try it ).
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