Implications of Brexit!
Discussion
Dont want to get too embroiled in the campaign, (although I am a confirmed member of the IN campaign!), however I have just found out a couple of interesting small implications. Most of the people I have talked to who are in favour of OUT seem to have little idea of the actual mechanisms and operation of the EU and just seem to focus on prejudices.
I have just found out that there would be implications in just taking the S on the Eurotrip.
We have mutual insurance acceptance, I can drive my car anywhere in Europe within my existing insurance for quite a long period. That mutual arrangement would cease. I have mutual health insurance cover in the EU, that would also cease.
At the moment we have free access to Europe without serious passport or visa issues. That would have to change. If we are separated from the EU security systems then access to Europe via the UK would be expected to be tightened to protect the EU, raising the prospect of a form of Visa.
At the moment there are certain issues in respect of the use of credit cards which are 'mutual', and there is some considerable doubt about how that would change.
Those of us who remember Europe before the EU would probably not be keen to go back to the arrangements that used to apply and the documents I used to have to carry! Do not expect France or German to be 'friendly' countries, historically neither have been.
I have just found out that there would be implications in just taking the S on the Eurotrip.
We have mutual insurance acceptance, I can drive my car anywhere in Europe within my existing insurance for quite a long period. That mutual arrangement would cease. I have mutual health insurance cover in the EU, that would also cease.
At the moment we have free access to Europe without serious passport or visa issues. That would have to change. If we are separated from the EU security systems then access to Europe via the UK would be expected to be tightened to protect the EU, raising the prospect of a form of Visa.
At the moment there are certain issues in respect of the use of credit cards which are 'mutual', and there is some considerable doubt about how that would change.
Those of us who remember Europe before the EU would probably not be keen to go back to the arrangements that used to apply and the documents I used to have to carry! Do not expect France or German to be 'friendly' countries, historically neither have been.
greymrj said:
... Most of the people I have talked to who are in favour of OUT seem to have little idea of the actual mechanisms and operation of the EU and just seem to focus on prejudices.....
Agreed. I'm not sure the issues you raise though would be major sticking points, but you never know. The cost issue is the one which makes me laugh. Taking Nigel Lawson's figures (interviewed on the Marr show the other week) the NET cost to the UK is £10bn pa. That doesn't even cover two tooled up aircraft carriers. Loose change in return for what we get out of membership. This now includes a TVR factory which is being built in an Enterprise Zone funded with EU money. The only problem with Europe is the French
Unfortunately neither side is helping informed debate because they are both running negative campaigns, and both sides are misrepresenting the true positions as regards the benefits and downsides.
Edited by v8s4me on Tuesday 10th May 11:09
Can't see any of these points being an issue: as the European member countries still have to retain the open border policy no change there.And as the current border checks are done to get out in to UK no change there either? No doubt insurance will continue to be offered as it is now as this already includes non-eu countries. Agree France is the problem so perhaps easy to just eject them instead?😁
Staying in means - Everything will stay as we know it now, and I'm fairly with that. We know the facts about IN as we are IN now!
Leaving means - Could be better for Britain - Who knows? - it's not the 70's any more? Could is not a fact it's speculation. Could be worse - Again, who knows? We can't "give it a go and see" because once the decision is made, that's it! OUT = Speculation only with NO FACTS!
A horse in the Grand National that is running at 100/1 COULD and in the past HAS won the race - FACT. But gambling with that knowledge means you could win 100x your stake and be better off, you could have it E/W and get place and win something back at 20x your stake (Half your outlay) and be better off. So gambling on this has FACTS that you can use but you still KNOW it's not a good idea to bet on that horse without some very good insider information. None of us have this information, you can't E/W bet on the EU it's all or nothing. It MIGHT give us the chance of a better Britain but I'm not ready to BET on OUT because OUT is an OUTSIDE bet!
That's how I'm looking at it and as much as I don't know what is right for this country I don't want to risk a change that we cannot reverse!
Not a campaign to stay in, just my way of interpreting the situation.
Leaving means - Could be better for Britain - Who knows? - it's not the 70's any more? Could is not a fact it's speculation. Could be worse - Again, who knows? We can't "give it a go and see" because once the decision is made, that's it! OUT = Speculation only with NO FACTS!
A horse in the Grand National that is running at 100/1 COULD and in the past HAS won the race - FACT. But gambling with that knowledge means you could win 100x your stake and be better off, you could have it E/W and get place and win something back at 20x your stake (Half your outlay) and be better off. So gambling on this has FACTS that you can use but you still KNOW it's not a good idea to bet on that horse without some very good insider information. None of us have this information, you can't E/W bet on the EU it's all or nothing. It MIGHT give us the chance of a better Britain but I'm not ready to BET on OUT because OUT is an OUTSIDE bet!
That's how I'm looking at it and as much as I don't know what is right for this country I don't want to risk a change that we cannot reverse!
Not a campaign to stay in, just my way of interpreting the situation.
That seems to be the whole basis of the 'IN' campaign in a nutshell. But it's interesting that at the start of the negotiations the PM stated explicitly that leaving EU was an option if the negotiations were unsuccessful. If he is to be believed now, that would have been catastrophically dangerous for the country and he would have to have been spectacularly stupid to consider it in return for the relatively minor concessions he was seeking.
I'm definitely in the out camp. What's the worst that could happen, if it goes tits up we could just join again. If we don't get out know we will never get the chance again.
The EU seems to be a fantastic club to be a member of if you are any country but Germany, France or Britain, the less you put in the more benefits you get out. If you are a low paid worker, like myself, mass immigration from the EU has been a disaster, wages have been held down and big employers who reap the benefits just love warning you that they can replace in an instant.
I might sound ignorant but the sums the goverment shove down our throats just don't seem to add up. If a family of 4 come Frome the EU and both parents get one of the apparently tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs that us lazy Brits don't want to do then there is no income tax being paid, £500 housing benefit is paid out, child benefits, free dental, free schools, free medical etc, etc. I don't begrudge anyone anything, but stop telling me that mass immigration of unskilled labour brings a net profit to the country.
I also find it odd that people who would normally not believe anything politicians tell us are falling for it hook line and sinker. The only reason more politicians are not backing the out campaign is because it will be career suicide for them when we end up staying in.
The EU seems to be a fantastic club to be a member of if you are any country but Germany, France or Britain, the less you put in the more benefits you get out. If you are a low paid worker, like myself, mass immigration from the EU has been a disaster, wages have been held down and big employers who reap the benefits just love warning you that they can replace in an instant.
I might sound ignorant but the sums the goverment shove down our throats just don't seem to add up. If a family of 4 come Frome the EU and both parents get one of the apparently tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs that us lazy Brits don't want to do then there is no income tax being paid, £500 housing benefit is paid out, child benefits, free dental, free schools, free medical etc, etc. I don't begrudge anyone anything, but stop telling me that mass immigration of unskilled labour brings a net profit to the country.
I also find it odd that people who would normally not believe anything politicians tell us are falling for it hook line and sinker. The only reason more politicians are not backing the out campaign is because it will be career suicide for them when we end up staying in.
harry henderson said:
What's the worst that could happen, if it goes tits up we could just join again.
How?You are already by saying this, accepting there is a potential flaw with leaving, unknown of course. Joining back up won't be simple.
If you are firmly out, you have your opinion and I respect anyone who does have an opinion either way. I'm in because I don't know. You appear to be out because you believe or hope something will improve. Truth be told we don't know. But just being honest the ability to join again won't be easy.
I don't like the scare tactics tho. We won't be at more risk of war or any of that BS!
I'm just being realistic about what could happen, being better off means vastly different things to different people. Take a large employer who makes millions off the backs of low paid works, if low skilled labour is reduced then wages go up. This is a disaster for big business but brilliant for the workers. Then there's those who can afford a new 100k Mercedes, they might have to to pay an extra 5%import tax on it so disaster for them but it won't bother me. Then if there are less migrants cramming in to working class northern towns then maybe my boy won't have to be in a class of 40 with most not speaking English, another bonus for me.
What I am getting at is there will good and bad results of leaving for everyone but I truly believe that people like myself will be better off out.
On the point about them not letting us back in the EU, I think it is irrelevant anyway. If we get out just watch how fast the likes of France etc pull out too. There won't be an EU to re join.
What I am getting at is there will good and bad results of leaving for everyone but I truly believe that people like myself will be better off out.
On the point about them not letting us back in the EU, I think it is irrelevant anyway. If we get out just watch how fast the likes of France etc pull out too. There won't be an EU to re join.
IN OUT SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT, DO THE HOKEY COKEY...........
Lack of information and also lack of a healthy debate is whats missing in my opinion.
Not enough searching questions either, about the status quo.
The remit they were given in the 70's has been totally warped into something else altogether and seems more about setting down rules to govern us by, which is difficult for any sovereign state to swallow. There also seem to be a lot of politicians on the gravy train too. Funny how President Jean-Claude Juncker seems happy to encourage the likes of Amazon etc to set up their tax affairs in Luxembourg and as a result they don't pay the right taxes into the countries they trade in - no wonder our public services is broke - but Juncker isn't bothered. The principle of wages across Europe seems flawed too. So everyone migrates to the country that pays the most in Europe, leaving their own countries to raging unemployment - better still sending the money back home to live like a king and not put it back into the economy they are happy to take from.......
Moving to the Euro - poor old Greece - does one currency really fit all? Did anyone do proper credit checks before they allowed all and sundry to join up? Would you do that if you were running a business? So when those weakest economy fall over, everyone gets sucked into it............
There are some fundamental principles I personally think they (EU and Britain) need to look at long and hard - but if we just blindly sign up, we lose our right to a decent debate - why does it have to be a black and white in out on the day? Why can't the people (rather than person) challenge the way it is until we can all make a decision based on something more concrete!
I too love being able to visit Europe and being friends with Europe, but the political machine that is the EU just seems to have become far to cumbersome to be effective.
I currently stand on the side of Exit, but like everyone on here, it bothers me that we haven't been given enough information to make an informed choice either way, but in amongst the machinery there are certainly people getting very wealthy whilst the rest of us "plebs" just bluster around trying to get facts whilst still paying heavily for the pleasure.
Still they did one thing useful for us, and helped finance all the speed humps - just wish they regulated the height as well as they do fish quota's and length of banana's!!
Like all - it flippin annoys me that we are all making a decision shortly, based upon media guff which is wholly unacceptable.
If we could get decent unbiased information i'd feel a lot happier about the decision to take
Rant ends......
Lack of information and also lack of a healthy debate is whats missing in my opinion.
Not enough searching questions either, about the status quo.
The remit they were given in the 70's has been totally warped into something else altogether and seems more about setting down rules to govern us by, which is difficult for any sovereign state to swallow. There also seem to be a lot of politicians on the gravy train too. Funny how President Jean-Claude Juncker seems happy to encourage the likes of Amazon etc to set up their tax affairs in Luxembourg and as a result they don't pay the right taxes into the countries they trade in - no wonder our public services is broke - but Juncker isn't bothered. The principle of wages across Europe seems flawed too. So everyone migrates to the country that pays the most in Europe, leaving their own countries to raging unemployment - better still sending the money back home to live like a king and not put it back into the economy they are happy to take from.......
Moving to the Euro - poor old Greece - does one currency really fit all? Did anyone do proper credit checks before they allowed all and sundry to join up? Would you do that if you were running a business? So when those weakest economy fall over, everyone gets sucked into it............
There are some fundamental principles I personally think they (EU and Britain) need to look at long and hard - but if we just blindly sign up, we lose our right to a decent debate - why does it have to be a black and white in out on the day? Why can't the people (rather than person) challenge the way it is until we can all make a decision based on something more concrete!
I too love being able to visit Europe and being friends with Europe, but the political machine that is the EU just seems to have become far to cumbersome to be effective.
I currently stand on the side of Exit, but like everyone on here, it bothers me that we haven't been given enough information to make an informed choice either way, but in amongst the machinery there are certainly people getting very wealthy whilst the rest of us "plebs" just bluster around trying to get facts whilst still paying heavily for the pleasure.
Still they did one thing useful for us, and helped finance all the speed humps - just wish they regulated the height as well as they do fish quota's and length of banana's!!
Like all - it flippin annoys me that we are all making a decision shortly, based upon media guff which is wholly unacceptable.
If we could get decent unbiased information i'd feel a lot happier about the decision to take
Rant ends......
harry henderson said:
...If you are a low paid worker, like myself, mass immigration from the EU has been a disaster, wages have been held down and big employers who reap the benefits just love warning you that they can replace in an instant.....
Well you can kiss goodbye to the Working-time Directive and all the other workers' rights legislation which has been enacted over the years as a result of EU membership.harry henderson said:
........I might sound ignorant but the sums the Government shove down our throats just don't seem to add up.....
Very true. But what is also true is the numbers quoted by the "Out" campaign are similarly spurious.harry henderson said:
... If a family of 4 come from the EU and both parents get one of the apparently tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs that us lazy Brits don't want to do then there is no income tax being paid, £500 housing benefit is paid out, child benefits, free dental, free schools, free medical etc, etc. ...
That's not an argument for leaving the EU; that's an argument for changing our benefits system, as Alan Johnson explained some weeks ago. If we had a system which only paid out if you paid in (NIC's), then (i) there would be no incentive to come here for low paid work, (ii) our indigenous spongers would have to get off their arses and (iii) it would be the same for everyone so no issues with the EU. Problem solved. But that would need politicians with real balls. harry henderson said:
... I also find it odd that people who would normally not believe anything politicians tell us are falling for it hook line and sinker. ...
That applies to both sides, doesn't it?All the more reason to do your own research and make an informed decision, one way or the other, based on the facts, and not on what some politician with one eye on his/her own personal political ambition claims.
Deeman said:
... Did anyone do proper credit checks before they allowed all and sundry to join up? Would you do that if you were running a business? So when those weakest economy fall over, everyone gets sucked into it............
There's a much simpler test for membership. As a country, do they have decent plumbing? Yes = IN, No = Out. Think about it.
Simples
According to Cameron leaving will create World War 3 ? I thought Angela Merkel won that without firing a single bullet ) .
The League Of Nations did a great job of stopping war in Europe .... Just that Germany and Italy decided to opt out in the 1930s
Can't see the EU being any different. History is in the same class as statistics ... you can use both to justify which ever argument you choose.
The League Of Nations did a great job of stopping war in Europe .... Just that Germany and Italy decided to opt out in the 1930s
Can't see the EU being any different. History is in the same class as statistics ... you can use both to justify which ever argument you choose.v8s4me said:
There's a much simpler test for membership. As a country, do they have decent plumbing? Yes = IN, No = Out.
Think about it.
Simples
Joe - they would do well to listen to you. Simple straightforward and effective advice. I like your style but it would mean rural france would be out of the EU!!!Think about it.
Simples
Here’s a few solid facts from a reliable source measured in GDP.
Largest global economy; USA = $17.4tn
2nd largest global economy; EU Zone = $13.4tn (China = $10.4tn)
2nd Largest economy in EU Zone; UK = $3tn
Big fish in a big pond, or small fish in a big pond? Which do you think gets the best deal when negotiating with the likes of China, the USA and other global markets? You decide.
The big question is though; have we become the 5th largest economy in the world because we have been part of the EU, or have we managed that all on our own? You decide.
Something else to consider. Our “membership fee” of £10bn (as per Nigel Lawson) represents 0.05% of our GDP (in round figures). Now put that in numbers we can understand. A low paid worker on minimum wage would earn about £13,400pa for a 40 hour week after tax. 0.05% of his annual wage is £6.70. Not even enough for 2 pints of beer (down south prices). £10bn sounds like a lot of money, but it needs to be considered in the context of national GDP.
Largest global economy; USA = $17.4tn
2nd largest global economy; EU Zone = $13.4tn (China = $10.4tn)
2nd Largest economy in EU Zone; UK = $3tn
Big fish in a big pond, or small fish in a big pond? Which do you think gets the best deal when negotiating with the likes of China, the USA and other global markets? You decide.
The big question is though; have we become the 5th largest economy in the world because we have been part of the EU, or have we managed that all on our own? You decide.
Something else to consider. Our “membership fee” of £10bn (as per Nigel Lawson) represents 0.05% of our GDP (in round figures). Now put that in numbers we can understand. A low paid worker on minimum wage would earn about £13,400pa for a 40 hour week after tax. 0.05% of his annual wage is £6.70. Not even enough for 2 pints of beer (down south prices). £10bn sounds like a lot of money, but it needs to be considered in the context of national GDP.
Edited by v8s4me on Tuesday 10th May 21:07
v8s4me said:
Here’s a few solid facts from a reliable source measured in GDP.
Largest global economy; USA = $17.4tn
2nd largest global economy; EU Zone = $13.4tn (China = $10.4tn)
2nd Largest economy in EU Zone; UK = $3tn
Big fish in a big pond, or small fish in a big pond? Which do you think gets the best deal when negotiating with the likes of China, the USA and other global markets? You decide.
The big question is though; have we become the 5th largest economy in the world because we have been part of the EU, or have we managed that all on our own? You decide.
Something else to consider. Our “membership fee” of £10bn (as per Nigel Lawson) represents 0.05% of our GDP (in round figures). Now put that in numbers we can understand. A low paid worker on minimum wage would earn about £13,400pa for a 40 hour week after tax. 0.05% of his annual wage is £6.70. Not even enough for 2 pints of beer (down south prices). £10bn sounds like a lot of money, but it needs to be considered in the context of national GDP.
Joe - the business side of it - well that's a debate - have we made the EU bigger than it should be and caused ourselves a problem. A debate that's raged for years as well, is that we don't manufacture anywhere near as much as we used to, the polluting trades having gone to china and india etc and which serve them well. Remember that EU babble a few years back about all number plates were to be made in Germany - self serving interests! I think at the time Germany might have been in the chair too! Its probably better for business - probably. (especially considering you lot sourced a cheap batch of brake servo's before they deftly bumped the price up) Personally, for me the issue is all to do with repeated interference. Let our countries all be and stop trying to govern and impose from the centre when your weren't actually given permission to do this in the first place, but lets trade and also enjoy our differences rather than be the united states of Europe. There are many aspects which are for the better - not sure Chezza Blair (Booth) integrating human rights laws to make a legal industry out of, were all good though! Largest global economy; USA = $17.4tn
2nd largest global economy; EU Zone = $13.4tn (China = $10.4tn)
2nd Largest economy in EU Zone; UK = $3tn
Big fish in a big pond, or small fish in a big pond? Which do you think gets the best deal when negotiating with the likes of China, the USA and other global markets? You decide.
The big question is though; have we become the 5th largest economy in the world because we have been part of the EU, or have we managed that all on our own? You decide.
Something else to consider. Our “membership fee” of £10bn (as per Nigel Lawson) represents 0.05% of our GDP (in round figures). Now put that in numbers we can understand. A low paid worker on minimum wage would earn about £13,400pa for a 40 hour week after tax. 0.05% of his annual wage is £6.70. Not even enough for 2 pints of beer (down south prices). £10bn sounds like a lot of money, but it needs to be considered in the context of national GDP.
Edited by v8s4me on Tuesday 10th May 21:07
I think deep down, we all know we'll never be allowed to leave anyway........ I'm not naïve enough to think it'll be done in the interests of democratic rights and truly be allowed the freedom of choice.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff