Implications of Brexit!

[wevster]

v8s4me said:

harry henderson said:

...If you are a low paid worker, like myself, mass immigration from the EU has been a disaster, wages have been held down and big employers who reap the benefits just love warning you that they can replace in an instant.....

Well you can kiss goodbye to the Working-time Directive and all the other workers' rights legislation which has been enacted over the years as a result of EU membership.

harry henderson said:

........I might sound ignorant but the sums the Government shove down our throats just don't seem to add up.....

Very true. But what is also true is the numbers quoted by the "Out" campaign are similarly spurious.

harry henderson said:

... If a family of 4 come from the EU and both parents get one of the apparently tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs that us lazy Brits don't want to do then there is no income tax being paid, £500 housing benefit is paid out, child benefits, free dental, free schools, free medical etc, etc. ...

That's not an argument for leaving the EU; that's an argument for changing our benefits system, as Alan Johnson explained some weeks ago. If we had a system which only paid out if you paid in (NIC's), then (i) there would be no incentive to come here for low paid work, (ii) our indigenous spongers would have to get off their arses and (iii) it would be the same for everyone so no issues with the EU. Problem solved. But that would need politicians with real balls.

harry henderson said:

... I also find it odd that people who would normally not believe anything politicians tell us are falling for it hook line and sinker. ...

That applies to both sides, doesn't it?

All the more reason to do your own research and make an informed decision, one way or the other, based on the facts, and not on what some politician with one eye on his/her own personal political ambition claims.

Just a point on the working time directive, it allows individual opt out. Employers just force their staff to opt out so its of no real benefit...

[v8s4me]

Deeman said:

..... A debate that's raged for years as well, is that we don't manufacture anywhere near as much as we used to ....

That's nothing to do with Europe. That's down to successive domestic governments, of all political persuasions, putting short term political gain before long-term economic growth.

Deeman said:

...... Personally, for me the issue is all to do with repeated interference...

You might want to check this, but in the last Parliament there were 121 Laws enacted, of which only 4 were as a result of EU "interference".

Deeman said:

...... . Let our countries all be and stop trying to govern and impose from the centre when your weren't actually given permission to do this in the first place, but lets trade and also enjoy our differences rather than be the united states of Europe. ...

My sentiments exactly. But we can only influence it from the inside, as the second biggest player. If we leave the rest will take advantage of us, because we will be out on own but still have to play by their rules if we want to trade with them. Check out the Norway situation.

Deeman said:

.......... I'm not naïve enough to think it'll be done in the interests of democratic rights and truly be allowed the freedom of choice....

I think that's another one of those unknown unknowns

[GreenV8S]

The part that seems to benefit us is the trade agreement. I don't understand why we are obliged to be in a legal and economic union in order to achieve that.

[mybrainhurts]

greymrj said:

Those of us who remember Europe before the EU would probably not be keen to go back to the arrangements that used to apply and the documents I used to have to carry! Do not expect France or German to be 'friendly' countries, historically neither have been.

My father used to drive his car on holiday, all over Europe, from the 1950s.

Documentation was never a problem.

Stop scaremongering.

[harry henderson]

wevster said:

v8s4me said:

harry henderson said:

...If you are a low paid worker, like myself, mass immigration from the EU has been a disaster, wages have been held down and big employers who reap the benefits just love warning you that they can replace in an instant.....

Well you can kiss goodbye to the Working-time Directive and all the other workers' rights legislation which has been enacted over the years as a result of EU membership.

harry henderson said:

........I might sound ignorant but the sums the Government shove down our throats just don't seem to add up.....

Very true. But what is also true is the numbers quoted by the "Out" campaign are similarly spurious.

harry henderson said:

... If a family of 4 come from the EU and both parents get one of the apparently tens of thousands of minimum wage jobs that us lazy Brits don't want to do then there is no income tax being paid, £500 housing benefit is paid out, child benefits, free dental, free schools, free medical etc, etc. ...

That's not an argument for leaving the EU; that's an argument for changing our benefits system, as Alan Johnson explained some weeks ago. If we had a system which only paid out if you paid in (NIC's), then (i) there would be no incentive to come here for low paid work, (ii) our indigenous spongers would have to get off their arses and (iii) it would be the same for everyone so no issues with the EU. Problem solved. But that would need politicians with real balls.

harry henderson said:

... I also find it odd that people who would normally not believe anything politicians tell us are falling for it hook line and sinker. ...

That applies to both sides, doesn't it?

All the more reason to do your own research and make an informed decision, one way or the other, based on the facts, and not on what some politician with one eye on his/her own personal political ambition claims.

Just a point on the working time directive, it allows individual opt out. Employers just force their staff to opt out so its of no real benefit...

I was made to opt out of the working time directive on day 1 or there was no job to be had, to be fair it's the only way to earn a decent wage. On the point of workers rights I was under the impression that there's none to be had until you have been employed there for 2 years. Thanks Cameron

[v8s4me]

harry henderson said:

...On the point of workers rights I was under the impression that there's none to be had until you have been employed there for 2 years. Thanks Cameron

Depends on what "rights" you're talking about, but generally speaking, do you think working conditions would be better or worse without EU "interference"?

[AutoAndy]

Nothing like a bit of politics...

It's all about internal splits in the Conservative party and votes lost to UKIP...nothing to do with the U.K. in Europe...

...but really, what we should remember is...... https://vimeo.com/85914510

Edited by AutoAndy on Wednesday 11th May 08:18

[phazed]

AutoAndy said:

...but really, what we should remember is...... https://vimeo.com/85914510

I enjoyed that

[v8s4me]

Brilliant!

[Danattheopticians]

GreenV8S said:

The part that seems to benefit us is the trade agreement. I don't understand why we are obliged to be in a legal and economic union in order to achieve that.

This is why the EU don't want us to leave. I don't understand it either. It is just our threat to Europe because Cameron didn't succeed getting the deal he wanted. Personally I believe the decision has already been made? Not saying it'll be fixed or anything

[GreenV8S]

Reminds me of an episode of The Wire where a young thug was being invited to join the local drug gang - and if he refused they'd break his knees. So we're best buddies with the rest of Europe and should definitely stay in, but if we do decide to leave our former friends and staunch allies will refuse to trade with us. Hmmm, let me think about how much of their advice is motivated by our best interests here ...

[MKnight702]

Danattheopticians said:

GreenV8S said:

The part that seems to benefit us is the trade agreement. I don't understand why we are obliged to be in a legal and economic union in order to achieve that.

This is why the EU don't want us to leave. I don't understand it either. It is just our threat to Europe because Cameron didn't succeed getting the deal he wanted. Personally I believe the decision has already been made? Not saying it'll be fixed or anything

I too am completely in favour of the EU from a trade perspective. It's the political perspective that gets my goat, that and the fantastic levels of waste.

[jwigglesworth]

Has this thread perhaps got a little away from this being an S-Series forum? Just a thought

To paraphrase The Sex Pistols: Never Mind The Bollxxxs, just get on with driving & enjoying your car!

Up the EU- right up

[DonkeyApple]

Deeman said:

IN OUT SHAKE IT ALL ABOUT, DO THE HOKEY COKEY...........

Lack of information and also lack of a healthy debate is whats missing in my opinion.

Not enough searching questions either, about the status quo.

The remit they were given in the 70's has been totally warped into something else altogether and seems more about setting down rules to govern us by, which is difficult for any sovereign state to swallow. There also seem to be a lot of politicians on the gravy train too. Funny how President Jean-Claude Juncker seems happy to encourage the likes of Amazon etc to set up their tax affairs in Luxembourg and as a result they don't pay the right taxes into the countries they trade in - no wonder our public services is broke - but Juncker isn't bothered. The principle of wages across Europe seems flawed too. So everyone migrates to the country that pays the most in Europe, leaving their own countries to raging unemployment - better still sending the money back home to live like a king and not put it back into the economy they are happy to take from.......

Moving to the Euro - poor old Greece - does one currency really fit all? Did anyone do proper credit checks before they allowed all and sundry to join up? Would you do that if you were running a business? So when those weakest economy fall over, everyone gets sucked into it............

There are some fundamental principles I personally think they (EU and Britain) need to look at long and hard - but if we just blindly sign up, we lose our right to a decent debate - why does it have to be a black and white in out on the day? Why can't the people (rather than person) challenge the way it is until we can all make a decision based on something more concrete!

I too love being able to visit Europe and being friends with Europe, but the political machine that is the EU just seems to have become far to cumbersome to be effective.

I currently stand on the side of Exit, but like everyone on here, it bothers me that we haven't been given enough information to make an informed choice either way, but in amongst the machinery there are certainly people getting very wealthy whilst the rest of us "plebs" just bluster around trying to get facts whilst still paying heavily for the pleasure.

Still they did one thing useful for us, and helped finance all the speed humps - just wish they regulated the height as well as they do fish quota's and length of banana's!!

Like all - it flippin annoys me that we are all making a decision shortly, based upon media guff which is wholly unacceptable.

If we could get decent unbiased information i'd feel a lot happier about the decision to take

Rant ends......

I think that pretty much sums it up and why we are now having a referendum. The Europe that we originally joined up to and the ambitions of that Europe no longer exist. We have found ourselves in 2016 a member of an organisation that simply doesn't fit with any of the ideals of the past.

Sure, travelling in the EU is now a little easier but one thing I know for sure is that no one in the EU is going to be rushing to not extend a warm welcome to my wallet or any Brits' if we were to leave.

I am hugely pro Europe and firmly believe we are all better off being part of the mainland and working together as a global unit. However, what Europe has become in the last 20 years, a centralised machine that exploits, endebts and enslaves the weaker people is catagorically not what any Briton, past, present or future can or should tolerate. As such, I find myself aiming to vote leave in the hopes that Britain can cause the current EU to topple and be replaced with an equitable and honest structure based on freedom of the people which we can all join up to.

I find it incredibly sad to find myself wanting something that I believe in and supported so much to be killed and built again but correctly. It is sad that a vote to remain is in fact a seal of approval for everything corrupt and wrong in the current project and it is catagorically impossible to sanction what has happened.

[KSV]

DonkeyApple said:

I think that pretty much sums it up and why we are now having a referendum. The Europe that we originally joined up to and the ambitions of that Europe no longer exist. We have found ourselves in 2016 a member of an organisation that simply doesn't fit with any of the ideals of the past.

Sure, travelling in the EU is now a little easier but one thing I know for sure is that no one in the EU is going to be rushing to not extend a warm welcome to my wallet or any Brits' if we were to leave.

I am hugely pro Europe and firmly believe we are all better off being part of the mainland and working together as a global unit. However, what Europe has become in the last 20 years, a centralised machine that exploits, endebts and enslaves the weaker people is catagorically not what any Briton, past, present or future can or should tolerate. As such, I find myself aiming to vote leave in the hopes that Britain can cause the current EU to topple and be replaced with an equitable and honest structure based on freedom of the people which we can all join up to.

I find it incredibly sad to find myself wanting something that I believe in and supported so much to be killed and built again but correctly. It is sad that a vote to remain is in fact a seal of approval for everything corrupt and wrong in the current project and it is catagorically impossible to sanction what has happened.

Couldn't agree more very well put.
Last chance saloon to change things.

[v8s4me]

In an ideal world the EU would split in two, with the leading economies operating together and not being dragged back by the smaller ones. In order of GDP that would be: Germany, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Ireland. These countries would form a powerful global trading bloc with a combined GDP on a par with the USA. Free trade and free movement limited to these countries. No more subsidies or bail-outs.

But that isn't going to happen, even if we leave.

[DonkeyApple]

v8s4me said:

In an ideal world the EU would split in two, with the leading economies operating together and not being dragged back by the smaller ones. In order of GDP that would be: Germany, United Kingdom, France, Italy, Spain, Netherlands, Sweden, Poland, Belgium, Austria, Denmark, Finland, Ireland. These countries would form a powerful global trading bloc with a combined GDP on a par with the USA. Free trade and free movement limited to these countries. No more subsidies or bail-outs.

But that isn't going to happen, even if we leave.

If we look at how we have run the most successful Union for 300 years based in common law and taxation and regulation and contrast it to the EU we can see one very major difference. We haven't tried to force the slower economies within our union to try and operate at the pace of the fastest. What we have instead done is run a system whereby when somewhere like Cornwall requires a new road or improved infrastructure then London simply pays for it. London doesn't force Cornwall to borrow more and more money and go ever deeper in debt while beating them with sticks to work harder and faster.

When you look at the EU the Med states will never ever increase natural output or come close to matching the economic pace of Germany. Forcing them to borrow more and more money in order to synthesise a false growth in economic output has proven to be a complete folly. Germany has done very well out of the EU through forcing debt into the weaker members when the only way a union can work is for that money to have been given just as London and other UK elements gives money to the economic extremities. Nor can you fudge equal competitiveness but accept the inefficiencies of geography and work with it.

I've always thought Germany to be the odd one out in the EU and that if it were to leave then the broad spectrum of economies would be far more evenly matched. Either way it is a huge project to achieve a good Union but one worth striving for but I do feel we have gone so far off course that leaving with an aim to rejoin a restructured Union at a later date is the only option to achieve that long term goal. But it does mean inviting deliberate unrest in the continent and ensuring that the many cracks are opened wide enough for a total restructuring and clear out to take place. Not a brilliant thing to do but better than sanctioning the expansionist horrors of the current deviant entity. And as you say, very clearly a sensible option to consider is a binary system where all are joined but via two distinct groups free to operate at their unforced, natural economic speeds.

[GreenV8S]

I don't see how a common currency can ever work unless all the parties are in a single economy i.e. a single government, a single fiscal system. Otherwise, the shared currency prevents the natural balance that an exchange rate provides and without that balance the less productive economies are crucified. The fact that so many countries in Europe have adopted the Euro suggests to me that they are quietly aiming for that single central European government - they've already stated that they're aiming for ever-tighter integration, although they've shut up about that since the referendum started. I don't trust the EU members to have our best interests at heart and I don't want the European government running our country. So given that I don't want to be in a European superstate, why would I want to be in Europe at all? To take advantage of the existing trade agreements seems to be the only answer.

[lewdon]

Europe sells more to us than we do to them. If we leave they will still want access to sell to us , we would not permit them to do so unless they give us access to sell to them. So no change.
The labour market should be regulated by supply and demand. If the supply side is distorted by a surplus of additional workers from poorer countries then wages are pushed down.
Unemployment in many European countries is higher than it is here, so it is easier for someone from, for example, Poland to get a job here than for someone from the UK to get a job in Poland. (A lot of youngsters in Poland are also taught English as a second language - at least enough to do an unskilled job. Not a lot or English kids learn Polish as a second language.) So the movement of people is not balanced.
Without European labour wages would re-adjust to fill the available vacancies, companies would have to train our own kids, and we would have to increase training places for the more highly skilled such as nurses, doctors etc rather than letting poorer countries pay to train them.
In short the employment situation would quickly re-adjust without the free movement of labour between countries, most jobs would still need to be done, just by different people.

[TurboTony]

I'm very

jwigglesworth said:

Has this thread perhaps got a little away from this being an S-Series forum?

I agree. This is not a political forum and there are lots of data free conversations here..... Drive your car and enjoy it, post about aspects of the car here. There are other soap boxes on which to pontificate.