Discussion
Kitchski said:
If you do try welding it, I'd drain the oil personally. The theories on it being safer with a full sump are fair, but the sump is made of monkey metal (like most of the engine 
) and if you manage to blow a hole in it while welding AND with a sump-full of oil, you'll end up with a welding torch full of oil!
Sorry Kitchski, no offence but I am afraid I just have to come back on that. Do NOT drain the oil then weld it. The remaining oil WILL vapourise and, believe me, vapourised engine oil CAN explode. ) and if you manage to blow a hole in it while welding AND with a sump-full of oil, you'll end up with a welding torch full of oil!
Ormskirk Hospital some years ago a man did that on a reserve generator sump and was killed. The oil acts both as a coolant and prevents oxygen getting to the heated area. Remove the coolant, and it gets hot. Let oxygen in as well and it goes BANG!
Weld it full or take it off. Use a MIG welder of course, not a gas torch (I assume nobody would be fool enough to get a gas torch anywhere near the oil or fuel!)
The sump is actually a pressing of good quality maleable mild steel not 'monkey metal'. You could not press sheet to that depth unless it was of good quality. Anybody who has retro fitted a turbo to one of the steel sump engines has probably had to weld in an additional oil return connection, it welds very well.
GreenV8S said:
greymrj said:
The oil acts both as a coolant and prevents oxygen getting to the heated area.
Are you assuming that the area to be welded is submerged in oil? I expect it's the shallow part of the sump which needs to be pulled out.
phillpot said:
surely the oil will be in the deep part of the sump and the damage is to the shallow part?
ChrisGadd said:
.......So plan is to remove the spark plugs and turn the engine until I can hear the knock and then get a thin piece of wire and see which cylinder is a BDC. At least this way I will know which part of the sump needs attention.
How much clearance is there normally between the bottom of the crank and the floor of the sump? 5mm? More, less? Anyway, if the sump has been pushed in enough to take up that amount of clearance, wouldn't it be obvious to the eye where the problem area is? Or perhaps you could simply run your finger along the center line of the sump with the engine turning over; if the crank is hitting the sump hard enough for you to hear it banging over the sound of the running engine then you should be able to feel the impact.Question for the V6 boys: If you were to undo the engine & gearbox mounts, can the engine be lifted just enough to slide the sump off?
v8s4me said:
Question for the V6 boys: If you were to undo the engine & gearbox mounts, can the engine be lifted just enough to slide the sump off?
Not sure I'm classed as a boy (old boy maybe 
) but simple answer.. No.the oil pick up dangles right down to the bottom of the well, lots of room needed... get that cross member cut out
I do agree with you the damage should be fairly obvious? a big dent, scratches to paint and its going to be near enough on the centre line I'd have thought?
greymrj said:
Sorry Kitchski, no offence but I am afraid I just have to come back on that. Do NOT drain the oil then weld it. The remaining oil WILL vapourise and, believe me, vapourised engine oil CAN explode. Ormskirk Hospital some years ago a man did that on a reserve generator sump and was killed. The oil acts both as a coolant and prevents oxygen getting to the heated area. Remove the coolant, and it gets hot. Let oxygen in as well and it goes BANG!
Weld it full or take it off. Use a MIG welder of course, not a gas torch (I assume nobody would be fool enough to get a gas torch anywhere near the oil or fuel!)
The sump is actually a pressing of good quality maleable mild steel not 'monkey metal'. You could not press sheet to that depth unless it was of good quality. Anybody who has retro fitted a turbo to one of the steel sump engines has probably had to weld in an additional oil return connection, it welds very well.
Don't be sorry, we've all got different ways of doing things. I've welded a fair few sumps in the past, and drained them before doing so. Obviously we have to be sensible here - we're talking little tack welds. If you were running a seam, oil out is wrong, oil in is wrong. The only right way is to take the sump off, but we're not, we're talking two small tacks. And as GreenV8S has rightly pointed out (and I'm a bit annoyed he beat me to it as I had the same thought myself after I posted Ormskirk Hospital some years ago a man did that on a reserve generator sump and was killed. The oil acts both as a coolant and prevents oxygen getting to the heated area. Remove the coolant, and it gets hot. Let oxygen in as well and it goes BANG!Weld it full or take it off. Use a MIG welder of course, not a gas torch (I assume nobody would be fool enough to get a gas torch anywhere near the oil or fuel!)
The sump is actually a pressing of good quality maleable mild steel not 'monkey metal'. You could not press sheet to that depth unless it was of good quality. Anybody who has retro fitted a turbo to one of the steel sump engines has probably had to weld in an additional oil return connection, it welds very well.
) the section in question can't be submerged anyway, as the deep pan section is miles away from the crank.As for the quality of the steel, again, only my opinion. I do a fair bit of work with them, and the quality of the steel is pretty poor, however thick it is. And of course, if it was tougher steel it might not have dented in the first place
Like I say though, different strokes for different folks. Nobody should be working on their car having taken H&S advice from anybody on here. Research it yourself and be confident in your approach, or don't attempt the job at all.
Kitchski said:
Don't be sorry, we've all got different ways of doing things. I've welded a fair few sumps in the past, and drained them before doing so. Obviously we have to be sensible here - we're talking little tack welds. If you were running a seam, oil out is wrong, oil in is wrong. The only right way is to take the sump off, but we're not, we're talking two small tacks. And as GreenV8S has rightly pointed out (and I'm a bit annoyed he beat me to it as I had the same thought myself after I posted ) the section in question can't be submerged anyway, as the deep pan section is miles away from the crank.
As for the quality of the steel, again, only my opinion. I do a fair bit of work with them, and the quality of the steel is pretty poor, however thick it is. And of course, if it was tougher steel it might not have dented in the first place
Like I say though, different strokes for different folks. Nobody should be working on their car having taken H&S advice from anybody on here. Research it yourself and be confident in your approach, or don't attempt the job at all.
) the section in question can't be submerged anyway, as the deep pan section is miles away from the crank.As for the quality of the steel, again, only my opinion. I do a fair bit of work with them, and the quality of the steel is pretty poor, however thick it is. And of course, if it was tougher steel it might not have dented in the first place
Like I say though, different strokes for different folks. Nobody should be working on their car having taken H&S advice from anybody on here. Research it yourself and be confident in your approach, or don't attempt the job at all.
So after a busy weekend doing house stuff I've managed to have a go with the dent puller and trying to glue a M12 nut underneath to use a slide hammer and I have to admit defeat. It's soooo annoying because the crank is only just catching the sump. The car is on ramps and isn't road worthy so can't take it to a local garage and I don't have a welder or the skills to tack a nut onto the sump. So does anybody out there live close enough to give me a hand ?
A mobile welder will do that for a call-out fee I would think, it really is 10mins work max, if it's already jacked up and prepped etc. Then when you've sorted it, grind the nut off and carefully linish back the weld before painting the sump again.
I have to admit I wasn't confident your glue idea would work, but I had my fingers crossed anyway!
I have to admit I wasn't confident your glue idea would work, but I had my fingers crossed anyway!
ChrisGadd said:
trying to glue a M12 nut underneath to use a slide hammer and I have to admit defeat
My suggestion: don't try to glue the nut to the sump. You only have a very small contact area and it'll be difficult to get a strong enough glue joint. Instead, weld the nut to a plate and glue the plate to the sump. That gives you a much bigger glue area. Make sure you have a plan to unglue the plate afterwards. Depending what glue you use, it might need heat and/or solvent. If you can get everything scrupulously clean and get a close fit between the two surfaces, superglue is good for this sort of thing and can be released with a little heat.Latest update, mobile welder arrived and was a top bloke with loads of experience. Ten minutes later and a M12 nut tacked onto the dent in the sump (which was almost unnoticeable) and one knock with the slide hammer 
and hey presto all well again. I'm leaving the nut on the sump because it lowers the center of gravity and will aid cornering 
One big lesson learned ... be extra careful when jacking the car. Thanks to all the help and suggestions it helped me get there in the end
and hey presto all well again. I'm leaving the nut on the sump because it lowers the center of gravity and will aid cornering One big lesson learned ... be extra careful when jacking the car. Thanks to all the help and suggestions it helped me get there in the endGood news, glad the old school methods still have their place 
Not sure about the centre of gravity though!!!
But do tell all, did he do it with oil in or out? Was there any fuss at all?
Do you realise that the next guy who buys your car is going to be on to this forum in years to come asking what is supposed to be attached to the screwed thread on the bottom of the sump
Not sure about the centre of gravity though!!!
But do tell all, did he do it with oil in or out? Was there any fuss at all?
Do you realise that the next guy who buys your car is going to be on to this forum in years to come asking what is supposed to be attached to the screwed thread on the bottom of the sump
greymrj said:
Good news, glad the old school methods still have their place
Not sure about the centre of gravity though!!!
But do tell all, did he do it with oil in or out? Was there any fuss at all?
Do you realise that the next guy who buys your car is going to be on to this forum in years to come asking what is supposed to be attached to the screwed thread on the bottom of the sump
..excellent news Chris - that's a reliefNot sure about the centre of gravity though!!!
But do tell all, did he do it with oil in or out? Was there any fuss at all?
Do you realise that the next guy who buys your car is going to be on to this forum in years to come asking what is supposed to be attached to the screwed thread on the bottom of the sump
...ref the comment above, I was looking under my car at something else yesterday and noticed I had a threaded nut welded to the bottom of my sump!...so probably had the same issue a while ago...mind you , looking at the exhaust hockey sticks I may had had a lot of underneath abuse from the roads...
greymrj said:
But do tell all, did he do it with oil in or out? Was there any fuss at all?
No fuss and decided that oil left in was a better option to try and disperse the heat, no fuss but I'm glad I got a professional in to do the welding because the sump isn't that thick.
Do you realise that the next guy who buys your car is going to be on to this forum in years to come asking what is supposed to be attached to the screwed thread on the bottom of the sump
I can't see myself selling the car it's such a joy to work on and the support given on this site is second to none
No fuss and decided that oil left in was a better option to try and disperse the heat, no fuss but I'm glad I got a professional in to do the welding because the sump isn't that thick.
Do you realise that the next guy who buys your car is going to be on to this forum in years to come asking what is supposed to be attached to the screwed thread on the bottom of the sump
I can't see myself selling the car it's such a joy to work on and the support given on this site is second to none
Well done 
ChrisGadd said:
... mobile welder arrived and was a top bloke with loads of experience. ...
Maybe get him back in the autumn and get the cross-member mod done? See Tel's thread to see how easy it is for someone who can weld. It could save you a lot of trouble in the future.Gassing Station | S Series | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff