Discussion
TJC46 said:
Here you go......enough gates here to keep anyone happy. http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/fuel-hose-fu...
Blimey! I'm even more confused now 
phillpot said:
I'm presuming the Carbuilder hose is "Gates" but not "Barricade"(but never-the-less quite serviceable)?
It's too cheap and construction looks simpler?
- 
CBS have listed one as fuel injection hose, and one as Ethanol-proof fuel injection hose. That tells me all I need to know!It's too cheap and construction looks simpler?
- Here's the Gates 3225 we've had:
It was probably the oldest hose of all the failures, fitted to a Griffith:
That bend is extreme, but it was on the bends that it was struggling. Of all the failures I've seen, the Gates one was the least severe. Worth pointing out that on some of the original stuff I've seen on Chimaeras and Griffiths from the factory (part number eludes me, but it has yellow text) I have never seen an issue! I feel particularly bad for those people who remove the original stuff because it's getting on a bit, and replace with the J30R9 stuff. They'd have been better off with the original!
Here's the German one, before any pressure was applied:
After 30PSI was applied:
From memory, I think that was one about 4 years old.
Then the usual SAE J30R9-marked stuff:
That hose was fitted to a Griffith about one year before that picture was taken. It feels very soft while fuel is still in it, then goes rock hard once the fuel is removed.
I personally don't like the braided ones as (aside from being a bit of a faff) you can't see the inner hose inside, so if it was going to fail, you'd have no idea as the braiding hides it. I've never seen a braided one fail though, in fairness.
For me at the moment, it's Barricade or go home!
It was probably the oldest hose of all the failures, fitted to a Griffith:
That bend is extreme, but it was on the bends that it was struggling. Of all the failures I've seen, the Gates one was the least severe. Worth pointing out that on some of the original stuff I've seen on Chimaeras and Griffiths from the factory (part number eludes me, but it has yellow text) I have never seen an issue! I feel particularly bad for those people who remove the original stuff because it's getting on a bit, and replace with the J30R9 stuff. They'd have been better off with the original!
Here's the German one, before any pressure was applied:
After 30PSI was applied:
From memory, I think that was one about 4 years old.
Then the usual SAE J30R9-marked stuff:
That hose was fitted to a Griffith about one year before that picture was taken. It feels very soft while fuel is still in it, then goes rock hard once the fuel is removed.
I personally don't like the braided ones as (aside from being a bit of a faff) you can't see the inner hose inside, so if it was going to fail, you'd have no idea as the braiding hides it. I've never seen a braided one fail though, in fairness.
For me at the moment, it's Barricade or go home!
I have been following this thread with interest, as following Southways anouncement I checked my fuel lines which were replaced in 2009 and they are indeed showing early signs of cracking. My problem (as also appears to be Joe's) is what to them replace with and where to get it. My car originally had black nylon /plastic fuel lines which I now regret changing. Where do you get Gates Barricade from and how much is it? What size reel do you have to buy and is there an opportunity for sharing the costs?
Any thoughts on this being an Ethanol problem, they do seam to be putting in larger amounts in these days. Fuel is now E10 in some places, I did note on the Barracuda hose is says Ethanol proof, maybe they know normal fuel hose is not. I do run Teflon Steel braided, I assume it is Ethanol proof but who knows exactly what s
t they put in petrol these days.
t they put in petrol these days. Right, I'm going to risk a torrent of derision and raise an "Emperor's New Clothes" question.
Why would copper tube be a problem for fuel lines? If the fuel line is fixed in position with ethanol proof rubber hose used at the ends for connecting to parts such as the fuel filter, injector distributor etc. then it is not going to be subjected to any movement. OK, there will be some vibration and heat and so it may loose some malleability over time, but why would that matter?
Cunifer costs about £6.40/m compared to 8mm copper tube from the plumbers merchant at around £1.50/m. Is it really that critical? Copper tube wall thickness is around .75mm so that has to capable of taking some pressure, hasn’t it?
OK, let the derision begin.....
Why would copper tube be a problem for fuel lines? If the fuel line is fixed in position with ethanol proof rubber hose used at the ends for connecting to parts such as the fuel filter, injector distributor etc. then it is not going to be subjected to any movement. OK, there will be some vibration and heat and so it may loose some malleability over time, but why would that matter?
Cunifer costs about £6.40/m compared to 8mm copper tube from the plumbers merchant at around £1.50/m. Is it really that critical? Copper tube wall thickness is around .75mm so that has to capable of taking some pressure, hasn’t it?
OK, let the derision begin.....
I cant see whats wrong with copper. Mine has plumbers copper on and all good.
Ive just changed my rubber hoses after a couple of years just as a precautionary measure. The rubber that came off was just Gates universal that my local factors sell. still all ok, no splits. So used the same stuff this time around.
I think with the rubber hose its a case of keeping on top of it with regular checks.
Those pics above are worrying tho.
Ive just changed my rubber hoses after a couple of years just as a precautionary measure. The rubber that came off was just Gates universal that my local factors sell. still all ok, no splits. So used the same stuff this time around.
I think with the rubber hose its a case of keeping on top of it with regular checks.
Those pics above are worrying tho.
GreenV8S said:
TJC46 said:
I replaced like for like on my car which was copper pipe.
Not to worry you, but the original pipe probably wasn't copper - at least, it shouldn't have been. Copper pipe isn't a good choice for a fuel line because of the work hardening problem.The original that came off was copper, i could tell on how malleable it was and the green oxidation stains that were also on it.
v8s4me said:
Why would copper tube be a problem for fuel lines?
In a static setup it would be fine, but copper doesn't cope with vibration well. Over time it will work harden, become brittle and eventually crack. The better it is supported and the bigger bore it is the slower this will happen, but it will happen. This is why OEMs went from copper/brass to steel and then to cunifer. Are you really sufficiently interested in saving a few quid in pipe to produce a setup that is less safe than a normal mass production car? If so, you probably don't need that ethanol proof liner on the hoses. And those cracked hoses look terrible, but they didn't actually fail yet, did they? Probably some money to be saved there too. 
There's nothing 'wrong' with copper fuel lines. TVR used it from new, and I've NEVER seen a fuel hard line fail other than rusty steel ones as fitted to normal production cars.
Cunifer, however, is better. It doesn't work harden like copper does, and doesn't cost much more money, relatively speaking. It's a direct replacement for copper, and the only downside is that it's very slightly stiffer and therefore a bit trickier to form. Still easy enough though.
Cunifer, however, is better. It doesn't work harden like copper does, and doesn't cost much more money, relatively speaking. It's a direct replacement for copper, and the only downside is that it's very slightly stiffer and therefore a bit trickier to form. Still easy enough though.
In the end I went with copper pipe from the back to the n/s/f wheel-arch and Gates hose from there to the metering head. I replaced all the hoses at the back around the fuel pump/filter etc with Gates hose as well. It was a right bast
rd of a job mainly because of the limited access you get with axle stands.
The old pipes were very badly cracked and perished so if your car is a similar age then I'd urge you to check your hoses carefully and change them asap if they are in any way showing their age.
One of the guys on the Wedge Forum (The Hatter) suggested using an 8mm brass compression fitting to crimp an olive on the end of the pipe, then cut off the fitting. This seemed like a much neater idea than soldering so I applied a pot of tea to his original idea and came up with this...
Clever eh? 'toms-dad' came up with a neat improvement. By assembling the olive on a short piece of pipe and doing the fitting up finger tight you can then remove the pipe and leave everything locked in place with the olive nicely centered. This means you can easily crimp an olive onto the end of a pipe while lying underneath the car with restricted access.
With a bit of practice I reckon you could crimp an olive on single handed.
Presumably you could use this on 8mm Cunifer as well.
rd of a job mainly because of the limited access you get with axle stands.The old pipes were very badly cracked and perished so if your car is a similar age then I'd urge you to check your hoses carefully and change them asap if they are in any way showing their age.
One of the guys on the Wedge Forum (The Hatter) suggested using an 8mm brass compression fitting to crimp an olive on the end of the pipe, then cut off the fitting. This seemed like a much neater idea than soldering so I applied a pot of tea to his original idea and came up with this...
Clever eh? 'toms-dad' came up with a neat improvement. By assembling the olive on a short piece of pipe and doing the fitting up finger tight you can then remove the pipe and leave everything locked in place with the olive nicely centered. This means you can easily crimp an olive onto the end of a pipe while lying underneath the car with restricted access.
With a bit of practice I reckon you could crimp an olive on single handed.
Presumably you could use this on 8mm Cunifer as well.
Edited by v8s4me on Tuesday 28th March 23:49
Had this braided made up from a local tractor/hydraulic specialist to get from tank to pump, says its rated for unleaded and to 3000 psi, still need the 2" piece of rubber to join them up, he had this SAE 100 R6 in stock but do you think this will be ok? says low pressure hose when check It online but also see it has max working pressure of 400 psi http://www.hydraulichose-fittings.com/lowpressure/... and not sure if good for unleaded? The fuel pump and crimped on reducer from braided hose can be pretty much butted up against each other.Only wanted to tidy up the cradle but Stupid design on the V8 means draining the fuel tank to get the cradle off as the hose passes through a hole in it, good time to check all the hoses though and noticed the small piece from pump was cracked. wanted this back together today, will get my refurbished steering rack back from Kileys in the week and want to be driving by next weekend, have not driven all winter, has been the longest I have had the car off the road since I have had it and these little bits of sunshine are giving me withdrawal symptoms!
I'm no expert on hoses, but Google suggests that's only a general purpose oil/water/air hose and not suitable for unleaded fuel. My Googling suggests you need SAE J30 or equivalent with a nitrile liner to tolerate unleaded petrol blended with ethanol.
If it's any consolation, I replaced that ugly low hanging piece of hose with half inch copper inside a heat shield and it fits far better, further away from the exhaust, doesn't hang down in harms way and much easier to get to fit. You might consider that as an alternative while you have it all apart.
If it's any consolation, I replaced that ugly low hanging piece of hose with half inch copper inside a heat shield and it fits far better, further away from the exhaust, doesn't hang down in harms way and much easier to get to fit. You might consider that as an alternative while you have it all apart.
Edited by GreenV8S on Saturday 1st April 14:05
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