Discussion
Nigel Worc's said:
There is a lot of activity lately on the M5, I use the stretch between the M6 down to Jnc 11a ..... a lot.
I noticed yesterday it was the start of the "silly season", where you start to mix with lots of people who don't generally use motorways.
For the first time in ages I had a car come up behind me quickly (despite me doing normal motorway speeds) flashing his lights to get me out of the way it was a old T redg primera, then a focus that must have been doing around a ton (wide wheels, stick on bits etc)
Do they make life more interesting or annoying for you ?
I don't get annoyed at the numptys on the motorway. It's just another day at work. I noticed yesterday it was the start of the "silly season", where you start to mix with lots of people who don't generally use motorways.
For the first time in ages I had a car come up behind me quickly (despite me doing normal motorway speeds) flashing his lights to get me out of the way it was a old T redg primera, then a focus that must have been doing around a ton (wide wheels, stick on bits etc)
Do they make life more interesting or annoying for you ?
It's a sad fact that the standard of driving on the motorway is typical of the overall standard in the country...poor. It reinforces my point about some of the silly and extreme posts about Police 'baiting' drivers. We don't need to do anything. There's plenty of drivers to keep us busy,who are blind and deaf, that manage to hang themselves without any help from us.
Battenburg Bob said:
I don't get annoyed at the numptys on the motorway. It's just another day at work.
It's a sad fact that the standard of driving on the motorway is typical of the overall standard in the country...poor.
Bob, you're obviously on the "front line" of traffic policing. So, in consideration of your above statement, what do you think is the solution? I'm honestly interested.It's a sad fact that the standard of driving on the motorway is typical of the overall standard in the country...poor.
I try to take pride in my driving at all times, as - I suspect - do most PH'ers. But I do (and mrs m) get incredibly frustrated at the slack-jawed numptiness of many other drivers. Maybe there is no solution? If so, what do you think is the reason for all these examples of sh!te driving?
There is no solution. Other than revoking every driving licence and making everybody take a tough and extended driving test. In my view the current one is too lax and too simple. How can you have a test that in no way incorporates motorway driving. Give someone a licence after spending 90% of the time doing 30mph, then let them loose at 90-100mph on a motorway. Middle lane hogging and the like is just plain ignorance, many just can't comprehend that they really shouldn't choose any lane that happens to suit them at the time.
And criticising someone's driving is like telling them you want to rape their daughter. They simply won't accept it, so it'll never change.
And criticising someone's driving is like telling them you want to rape their daughter. They simply won't accept it, so it'll never change.
Hmm.
One of the problems with trying to achieve a top standard for everyone is that there will always be some measurement that claims to have identified the best 5, 10 or 20% and therefore implies the rest are well below par. I'll be generous and allow that they may just have got their assessment right, but I would bet that 95% are well off the mark.
On Friday evening I observed an articulated middle lane numpty on the A50 (a 3 lane motorway standard road at the point of observation). The chances were that three miles later he would indeed be in the correct lane again when the left lane became the slip road northbound at M1 J24a. But meantime he had come off a 2 lane section and simply sat in the middle lane. This surprised me. DHL drivers don't normally do that in my experience.
In mitigation there was hardly any traffic about and it mattered not a jot that he sat in the middle lane. But it seemed strange.
Last Tuesday evening I was present when an elderly gentleman in a modern car, reversing slowly into a parking space in a fairly empty pub car park, managed to misjudge his manoeuvre and gently crunch the wing of a car already parked. A warning call from someone else in the car park was a fraction too late for him to react. The driver probably should not be on the road but the worst case scenario OF THIS PARTICULAR ACTION is a little scratched paint, maybe. I didn't go to look.
As I have become older it occurs to me that driving is actually not that difficult a task to do quite adequately most of the time for most people even if they are not passionately consumed by the activity. Indeed over the years one of the old key skills - car control in marginally adverse conditions - has been largely removed from the equation, along with mechanical sympathy and so on, as engineering standards and safety features have been added to vehicles.
It occurs to me that probably the most important factors in modern driving, now more affordable for more people than it was when the RTA stats were at their worst, are clearly communicating to others what you are about to do (when there is a need to) and being able to interpret and predict what others are likely to do whether they communicate it or not. For most day to day situations this, with a modicum of courtesy extended to other road users, will be enough. I'm not sure how you can test for that.
I have sympathy with the idea of everyone experiencing something like motorway driving with guidance from an experienced coach. However:
a) that is clearly not always practical depending on location.
b) it may be totally unnecessary for a large number of drivers who only wish to potter around their local area
c) to justify the effort and costs it would require a convincing analysis that many major problems on the motorways were caused solely by lack of motorway experience.
d) anyone born in the last 30 years who's family travelled about during that time is likely have been exposed to a motorway experience. If they have an interest in driving they will have observed good and bad driving behaviour. Whether they absorbed and understood and subsequently applied it is another matter. If they did then they probably should not need a lot of motorway (or similar) tuition. If they didn't then one might start to wonder if they should be allowed on the roads at all, even on a bicycle.
I have 2 daughters in their early 20s. Both have been driving on full licences since they were 17. We live near a motorway but more importantly nearly all of their lessons involved using some near motorway standard roads for some of the time. Plus as a family we used motorways quite a lot and would 'observe' on road and traffic situations by discussion as we travelled.
Other families don't.
My daughters recently observed that, as drivers, their friends seem to split into two camps. Those with confidence, who typically come from families with a keen awareness of the driving process (as judged by being passengers when the parents were driving) and those who don't have much basic confidence or, seemingly, much awareness.
Most people drive at least tens of thousands of miles in their driving lifetime without having a serious accident. A few are less fortunate. Whether the time effort and cost of attempting to improve the motorway driving standards of a proportion of the population (if it could be readily identified) would have a measurable effect on the numbers remains to be seen.
I spent a good many hours a few years ago ploughing through a decade or more of the Government's official RTA database annual report looking for patterns that were significant. I didn't find any thast were 'huge', though there was a suggestion that there were more TWV fatalities on LH bends (as I recall) than RH bends (it may have been the other way around) and that the majority of child pedestrian fatalities (a generally smaller number than you might believe from the headlines) related to the ages of 10/11 to 16 and occurred about an hour after schools close for the day. I also suspect that most of those incidents don't often occur close to schools.
In summary, I doubt very much whether we know now, or will ever know, what to do to make the roads a better place to be for all concerned. Experimenting on the margins of knowledge may not produce the desired results. As applied to 'the masses' regulation tends to constrain opportunities to the lowest common denominator. That may well NOT be what keen drivers would like to see.
As for 'baiting' ...
Some time last year as I was about to join my local stretch of the A50 one murky, damp, early evening I observed 3 (maybe 4 but I could have missed the lead vehicle in the spray) travelling at a speed distinctly faster than the main traffic and passing from a 2 lane DC to a 3 lane DC with 2 staggered high speed joining lanes. "Gosh!" I thought, "they must have been travelling quickly since I am doing 70 ..." Then I thought, "The Ferrari was leaving a reasonable gap but whatever the dark saloon that was following him was almost attached to his bumper. Not good at that junction at that speed in a light spray ..."
A mile down the road my lights picked up the Ferrari, stopped on the almost non-existent 'hard shoulder' just by a service area (for some reason), with the dark saloon, strobes and blues now flashing, stopped behind it.
Baiting or not the way the stop appears to have developed and subsequently been effected did not strike me as entirely wise and could have been handled differently. There was time and space in the nect few miles as the crew in the unmarked car must surely have known. But then, what do I know?
I doubt I will be driving 20 years from now. Maybe not even 10 years from now if the tracking concepts the EU (and the FIA/EURONCAP seem to promote) have actually been introduced. Getting people off the road will be easy then. Just bill them fine them and tax them. No need for limio lanes for the 'great and good', the roads will be empty. So this discussion and any long term talk of raising driving standards might, ultimately, be of no importance.
On that happy note ... have a great holiday weekend.
One of the problems with trying to achieve a top standard for everyone is that there will always be some measurement that claims to have identified the best 5, 10 or 20% and therefore implies the rest are well below par. I'll be generous and allow that they may just have got their assessment right, but I would bet that 95% are well off the mark.
On Friday evening I observed an articulated middle lane numpty on the A50 (a 3 lane motorway standard road at the point of observation). The chances were that three miles later he would indeed be in the correct lane again when the left lane became the slip road northbound at M1 J24a. But meantime he had come off a 2 lane section and simply sat in the middle lane. This surprised me. DHL drivers don't normally do that in my experience.
In mitigation there was hardly any traffic about and it mattered not a jot that he sat in the middle lane. But it seemed strange.
Last Tuesday evening I was present when an elderly gentleman in a modern car, reversing slowly into a parking space in a fairly empty pub car park, managed to misjudge his manoeuvre and gently crunch the wing of a car already parked. A warning call from someone else in the car park was a fraction too late for him to react. The driver probably should not be on the road but the worst case scenario OF THIS PARTICULAR ACTION is a little scratched paint, maybe. I didn't go to look.
As I have become older it occurs to me that driving is actually not that difficult a task to do quite adequately most of the time for most people even if they are not passionately consumed by the activity. Indeed over the years one of the old key skills - car control in marginally adverse conditions - has been largely removed from the equation, along with mechanical sympathy and so on, as engineering standards and safety features have been added to vehicles.
It occurs to me that probably the most important factors in modern driving, now more affordable for more people than it was when the RTA stats were at their worst, are clearly communicating to others what you are about to do (when there is a need to) and being able to interpret and predict what others are likely to do whether they communicate it or not. For most day to day situations this, with a modicum of courtesy extended to other road users, will be enough. I'm not sure how you can test for that.
I have sympathy with the idea of everyone experiencing something like motorway driving with guidance from an experienced coach. However:
a) that is clearly not always practical depending on location.
b) it may be totally unnecessary for a large number of drivers who only wish to potter around their local area
c) to justify the effort and costs it would require a convincing analysis that many major problems on the motorways were caused solely by lack of motorway experience.
d) anyone born in the last 30 years who's family travelled about during that time is likely have been exposed to a motorway experience. If they have an interest in driving they will have observed good and bad driving behaviour. Whether they absorbed and understood and subsequently applied it is another matter. If they did then they probably should not need a lot of motorway (or similar) tuition. If they didn't then one might start to wonder if they should be allowed on the roads at all, even on a bicycle.
I have 2 daughters in their early 20s. Both have been driving on full licences since they were 17. We live near a motorway but more importantly nearly all of their lessons involved using some near motorway standard roads for some of the time. Plus as a family we used motorways quite a lot and would 'observe' on road and traffic situations by discussion as we travelled.
Other families don't.
My daughters recently observed that, as drivers, their friends seem to split into two camps. Those with confidence, who typically come from families with a keen awareness of the driving process (as judged by being passengers when the parents were driving) and those who don't have much basic confidence or, seemingly, much awareness.
Most people drive at least tens of thousands of miles in their driving lifetime without having a serious accident. A few are less fortunate. Whether the time effort and cost of attempting to improve the motorway driving standards of a proportion of the population (if it could be readily identified) would have a measurable effect on the numbers remains to be seen.
I spent a good many hours a few years ago ploughing through a decade or more of the Government's official RTA database annual report looking for patterns that were significant. I didn't find any thast were 'huge', though there was a suggestion that there were more TWV fatalities on LH bends (as I recall) than RH bends (it may have been the other way around) and that the majority of child pedestrian fatalities (a generally smaller number than you might believe from the headlines) related to the ages of 10/11 to 16 and occurred about an hour after schools close for the day. I also suspect that most of those incidents don't often occur close to schools.
In summary, I doubt very much whether we know now, or will ever know, what to do to make the roads a better place to be for all concerned. Experimenting on the margins of knowledge may not produce the desired results. As applied to 'the masses' regulation tends to constrain opportunities to the lowest common denominator. That may well NOT be what keen drivers would like to see.
As for 'baiting' ...
Some time last year as I was about to join my local stretch of the A50 one murky, damp, early evening I observed 3 (maybe 4 but I could have missed the lead vehicle in the spray) travelling at a speed distinctly faster than the main traffic and passing from a 2 lane DC to a 3 lane DC with 2 staggered high speed joining lanes. "Gosh!" I thought, "they must have been travelling quickly since I am doing 70 ..." Then I thought, "The Ferrari was leaving a reasonable gap but whatever the dark saloon that was following him was almost attached to his bumper. Not good at that junction at that speed in a light spray ..."
A mile down the road my lights picked up the Ferrari, stopped on the almost non-existent 'hard shoulder' just by a service area (for some reason), with the dark saloon, strobes and blues now flashing, stopped behind it.
Baiting or not the way the stop appears to have developed and subsequently been effected did not strike me as entirely wise and could have been handled differently. There was time and space in the nect few miles as the crew in the unmarked car must surely have known. But then, what do I know?
I doubt I will be driving 20 years from now. Maybe not even 10 years from now if the tracking concepts the EU (and the FIA/EURONCAP seem to promote) have actually been introduced. Getting people off the road will be easy then. Just bill them fine them and tax them. No need for limio lanes for the 'great and good', the roads will be empty. So this discussion and any long term talk of raising driving standards might, ultimately, be of no importance.
On that happy note ... have a great holiday weekend.
Edited by LongQ on Wednesday 15th April 00:33
I can only speak for my area (and my shift). Under 90 doesn't even get a look, otherwise we'd never be doing anything else. Over 90 is a grey area. If you do it for mile after mile with a fully marked Volvo behind you, then it doesn't say a lot about your observation skills.
Over 100 and you'll be getting a ticket. Over 100 in poor weather and/or driving like a kn@bber, then it's likely you'll be reported. 120+ and even more likely you'll be reported (although a ticket is not entirely out of the question)
Despite what a good proportion of those who contribute to SP+L think, we're not robots, not there to 'stitch' people up and use guidelines as just that, guidelines.
Over 100 and you'll be getting a ticket. Over 100 in poor weather and/or driving like a kn@bber, then it's likely you'll be reported. 120+ and even more likely you'll be reported (although a ticket is not entirely out of the question)
Despite what a good proportion of those who contribute to SP+L think, we're not robots, not there to 'stitch' people up and use guidelines as just that, guidelines.
Battenburg Bob said:
I can only speak for my area (and my shift). Under 90 doesn't even get a look, otherwise we'd never be doing anything else. Over 90 is a grey area. If you do it for mile after mile with a fully marked Volvo behind you, then it doesn't say a lot about your observation skills.
Over 100 and you'll be getting a ticket. Over 100 in poor weather and/or driving like a kn@bber, then it's likely you'll be reported. 120+ and even more likely you'll be reported (although a ticket is not entirely out of the question)
Despite what a good proportion of those who contribute to SP+L think, we're not robots, not there to 'stitch' people up and use guidelines as just that, guidelines.
Nice response thank you.Over 100 and you'll be getting a ticket. Over 100 in poor weather and/or driving like a kn@bber, then it's likely you'll be reported. 120+ and even more likely you'll be reported (although a ticket is not entirely out of the question)
Despite what a good proportion of those who contribute to SP+L think, we're not robots, not there to 'stitch' people up and use guidelines as just that, guidelines.
After reading my question back I thought it might seem a bit provocative, but it was a sincere question.
I feel conspicuous over 90, so I rarely do that...plus 90 is actually pretty rapid by any standard. I like 85
I wonder if the 70 limit will ever be raised?
Safe driving all.
Nick
TVR Moneypit said:
You seem like one of the good guys Bob.
Most are, I've been in an unmarked vehicle following a clown at high speed (but driving OK) who couldn't see an obvious official vehicle behind, he just got flashed and the loud finger, no more. Good policing.By the same token, I've had a m/c officer pull vehicles for me and seen someone aim straight for him. The driver got a lot of grief (rightly) and it took some hours to thoroughly search that one.
Seeing some of the wrecks they deal with is pretty scarey.
Rob. said:
Bob, how much truth is there in the "anything 100mph + is an instant roadside ban"? Does this ever happen? I.e - the driver is taken to the station whilst you or a colleague takes the offenders car for them.
Well, that's a new one. There is no such thing as a 'roadside ban' and the only time we seize cars is for no ins or no licence.
A high speed will result in being reported for court. It's then up to them whether you get banned or not. Sounds like someone is spinning you porkies.
MarkoTVR said:
Nice to hear there is some common sense out there. 
Totally agree with the comments regarding no motorway experience in the standard test. I've always thought it to be ridiculous to have nothing in there given the size of the motorway network now.
The Motorway netrwork has hardly expanded for years. Totally agree with the comments regarding no motorway experience in the standard test. I've always thought it to be ridiculous to have nothing in there given the size of the motorway network now.
How do you propose that someone from, say, North West Wales or the North of Scotland obtains motorway experience? And then, assuming you have a split licence complication (hmm, I see more revenue for the Government in this one), how do you police it?
Can anyone come up with any figures that clearly show that the majority of serious motorway accidents are primarily caused by inexperienced drivers and that prior tuition would be the clear answer to eliminating the problem? Or should there be a requirement, as in flying, that people must complete a certain number of motorway hours per annum to retain their full road access licence?
Would such a move be more valuable than, say, placing controls on LHD trucks and explaining to all and sundry that large trucks have blind spots and that to sit alongside them at any time for any reason (even when stationary in some cases) is not a good idea? (To take just one example.)
How about tiredness. Would more closely spaced rest places have a greater value than annoying road signs telling us '"Don't drive tired"?
Someone somewhere 'Thinking something is a good idea' is how we ended up with the ever increasing controls and restrictions we have at the moment and I have yet to see any clear proof that the controls, in most cases, in any way contribute to the claims made for them.
Battenburg Bob said:
I can only speak for my area (and my shift). Under 90 doesn't even get a look, otherwise we'd never be doing anything else. Over 90 is a grey area. If you do it for mile after mile with a fully marked Volvo behind you, then it doesn't say a lot about your observation skills.
Over 100 and you'll be getting a ticket. Over 100 in poor weather and/or driving like a kn@bber, then it's likely you'll be reported. 120+ and even more likely you'll be reported (although a ticket is not entirely out of the question)
Despite what a good proportion of those who contribute to SP+L think, we're not robots, not there to 'stitch' people up and use guidelines as just that, guidelines.
I don't know Bob in any way, even through IAM work, but I can advise that I've never been stopped on a motorway, let alone just in Bobs area, and I tend to cruise around the indicated 85 mark (very seldom do I ever exceed this), providing it is safe to do so.Over 100 and you'll be getting a ticket. Over 100 in poor weather and/or driving like a kn@bber, then it's likely you'll be reported. 120+ and even more likely you'll be reported (although a ticket is not entirely out of the question)
Despite what a good proportion of those who contribute to SP+L think, we're not robots, not there to 'stitch' people up and use guidelines as just that, guidelines.
I love bank holiday driving (from the amusing point of view), and today went to see my Brother in Polesworth, using the M's 5 42 6 tollish then 42 again.
You just have to sit back, hold your position and try not to be alongside anyone as the different motorways merge, I wish I had a camera system in my car, the different ways people have of using these merge junctions is sad, but fascinating at the same time.
LongQ said:
Hmm.
On Friday evening I observed an articulated middle lane numpty on the A50 (a 3 lane motorway standard road at the point of observation. The chances were that three mile later he would indeed be in the correct lane again when the left lane became the slip road northbound at M1 J24a. But meantime he had come off a 2 lane section and simply sat in the middle lane. This surprised me. DHL drivers don't normally do that in my experience.
In mitigation there was hardly any traffic about and it mattered not a jot that he sat in the middle lane. But it seemed strange.
I'm ALWAYS frustrated by the middle lane hoggers on that section of roadOn Friday evening I observed an articulated middle lane numpty on the A50 (a 3 lane motorway standard road at the point of observation. The chances were that three mile later he would indeed be in the correct lane again when the left lane became the slip road northbound at M1 J24a. But meantime he had come off a 2 lane section and simply sat in the middle lane. This surprised me. DHL drivers don't normally do that in my experience.
In mitigation there was hardly any traffic about and it mattered not a jot that he sat in the middle lane. But it seemed strange.
PhilLL said:
LongQ said:
Hmm.
On Friday evening I observed an articulated middle lane numpty on the A50 (a 3 lane motorway standard road at the point of observation. The chances were that three mile later he would indeed be in the correct lane again when the left lane became the slip road northbound at M1 J24a. But meantime he had come off a 2 lane section and simply sat in the middle lane. This surprised me. DHL drivers don't normally do that in my experience.
In mitigation there was hardly any traffic about and it mattered not a jot that he sat in the middle lane. But it seemed strange.
I'm ALWAYS frustrated by the middle lane hoggers on that section of roadOn Friday evening I observed an articulated middle lane numpty on the A50 (a 3 lane motorway standard road at the point of observation. The chances were that three mile later he would indeed be in the correct lane again when the left lane became the slip road northbound at M1 J24a. But meantime he had come off a 2 lane section and simply sat in the middle lane. This surprised me. DHL drivers don't normally do that in my experience.
In mitigation there was hardly any traffic about and it mattered not a jot that he sat in the middle lane. But it seemed strange.
It depends on the traffic volume. Mostly the trucks are cautious moving to lane 1 of the three after the Derby East join - and rightly so of course as they can have high speed traffic joining to their left. By the time they are into that manoeuvre they also have to consider the entrance to and exit from the services, so stayinging in what was lane 1 of the 2 lane section can make sense for them if they can see traffic related to the service area. After that there is the possibility of something moving into lane one from the gravel works and then maybe traffic in lane one slowing and queuing to take the Long Eaton/Donington exit. A few hundred yards later you have 2 lanes joining from the other side of the junction and possibly a queue in lanes 2 and 3 heading for J24. If you are not heading M1 north on the J24a slip road you need to move across anyway.
All this happens in about 3 miles or so, so in relatively heavy traffic the options for moving to lane one may be few and the time spent there may be short.
But my observation was on a day and at a time with very light traffic indeed. Hence the surprise.
Because the traffic was light it didn't make much difference to me BUT such unexpected behaviour had me wondering what I was approaching - the DHL markings were only on the tractor unit (also unusual) so from the back it could have been anything with some UK style reg plate but even that was partly obscured so that being certain it was a UK plate rather than from some other part of the world was not possible until gwtting quite close to the vehicle.
No big deal really but certainly unexpected.
Rob. said:
LongQ said:
the DHL markings were only on the tractor unit (also unusual)
Not really though? DHL hold contracts (Boots, M&S clothing) where there name does`nt even appear on the vehicles. If it does then often only the tractor unit as the customer wants there name on the trailers.The odd thing on this one was that, as far as I can recall, the trailer was a little tatty and unmarked - hence my surprise at seeing a DHL logo on the tractor unit.
Either way and with or without DHL involvement the lane 'hogging' from a UK registered rig was unusual IMO.
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