Manchester congestion charge
Discussion
I posted this information on the General gassing forum, but I thought it might be of more interest here.
I just picked up some info about the proposed Manchester congestion charge
Details are:
Proposed start: 2012 (contingent on funding for public transport)
Charges:
07:00-09:30 weekdays (inbound) £2 to cross the outer zone (approx M60), £1 to cross the inner zone (not yet decided)
16:00-18:30 weekdays (outbound) £1 to cross each zone.
For those who may want to have their say, there will be neighbourhood forums on the subject at the following places:
Ashton-u-Mersey school, Sale 10th July 7-9pm
St Mary's Church, Partington, 10th July 7-9pm
Trafford Town Hall, Stretford, 3rd July 6-8pm
Flixton House, Flixton, 11 July, 7-9pm
I just picked up some info about the proposed Manchester congestion charge
Details are:
Proposed start: 2012 (contingent on funding for public transport)
Charges:
07:00-09:30 weekdays (inbound) £2 to cross the outer zone (approx M60), £1 to cross the inner zone (not yet decided)
16:00-18:30 weekdays (outbound) £1 to cross each zone.
For those who may want to have their say, there will be neighbourhood forums on the subject at the following places:
Ashton-u-Mersey school, Sale 10th July 7-9pm
St Mary's Church, Partington, 10th July 7-9pm
Trafford Town Hall, Stretford, 3rd July 6-8pm
Flixton House, Flixton, 11 July, 7-9pm
what happens if you have to take your children to school across the M60 boundary, as a friend of mine will have to?
it is to far to walk.
will buses be charged and will they then pass this charge onto the passengers?
I suspect that irrespective of forums it is too late and the whole thing is a forgone conclusion!!!!!
it is to far to walk.
will buses be charged and will they then pass this charge onto the passengers?
I suspect that irrespective of forums it is too late and the whole thing is a forgone conclusion!!!!!
jessica said:
I suspect that irrespective of forums it is too late and the whole thing is a forgone conclusion!!!!!
Not if we stand and fight and make sure that those that think they are in power realise congestion charging is totally unacceptable. If they do bring it in, no-one must pay the charge and then the courts system will fail and the whole thing colapses. Remember those who think they are in power work for us, and they must be made to remember they work for us.First of all apologies for not being there last night too but thank you very much for passing on the information gathered.
From what is said I think it is reasonably safe to assume that the M60 itself will not be included in the charge, to do so would add insult to injury as this is the only way of circumnavigating the charge area if it were to go ahead. It takes a bit of wind out of my sails but I won't be giving up.
Suggestions for questions to be asked at these meetings, these are not meant as simple "don't do it" arguments as many people in those meetings will be all for the charge. Instead you need to make them question their beliefs and witness the lack of credibility in the answers from the hosts of the meetings:
Technology to be used - the London CC is hopeless in its accuracy and this is well documented. You can be charged for going past a junction on the edge of the zone even if you don't dip into it. The number of false positives is also frankly frightening. The operators of the London CC also confess that only a percentage of charges are ever recovered as some cars are untracable back to their owners. The new system needs to be proven as 100% (or at least 99%) accurate and since we know that this is impossible it can be used as a major stumbling block to progress of the system.
Impact on traffic and parking in outlying regions - the introduction of the charge is going to leave outlying areas swamped in parked cars from the start of the charge period in the morning to the end of the period in the evening? Where are they going to park and who is going to provide security?
Alternative methods of controlling congestion - what has been considered and estimated? Is there going to be any development to alleviate congestion on the trunk roads that bypass the zones? The M60 as-is, despite being recently widened in places is woefully inadequate for the task. The trunk roads into and out of the area are already at bursting point in places. The congestion charge will not alleviate this traffic by itself, further road plannning is required to enable it, failure to do so will make the situation worse not better. What about road repair in those outlying areas - some of the roads are already of appalling quality and the added load is going to quickly worsen that situation.
Where is the money going from the congestion charge - so far I have seen nothing to explain whose pockets will be lined from the revenue. What projects will the money be used for?
Any more suggestions?
From what is said I think it is reasonably safe to assume that the M60 itself will not be included in the charge, to do so would add insult to injury as this is the only way of circumnavigating the charge area if it were to go ahead. It takes a bit of wind out of my sails but I won't be giving up.
Suggestions for questions to be asked at these meetings, these are not meant as simple "don't do it" arguments as many people in those meetings will be all for the charge. Instead you need to make them question their beliefs and witness the lack of credibility in the answers from the hosts of the meetings:
Technology to be used - the London CC is hopeless in its accuracy and this is well documented. You can be charged for going past a junction on the edge of the zone even if you don't dip into it. The number of false positives is also frankly frightening. The operators of the London CC also confess that only a percentage of charges are ever recovered as some cars are untracable back to their owners. The new system needs to be proven as 100% (or at least 99%) accurate and since we know that this is impossible it can be used as a major stumbling block to progress of the system.
Impact on traffic and parking in outlying regions - the introduction of the charge is going to leave outlying areas swamped in parked cars from the start of the charge period in the morning to the end of the period in the evening? Where are they going to park and who is going to provide security?
Alternative methods of controlling congestion - what has been considered and estimated? Is there going to be any development to alleviate congestion on the trunk roads that bypass the zones? The M60 as-is, despite being recently widened in places is woefully inadequate for the task. The trunk roads into and out of the area are already at bursting point in places. The congestion charge will not alleviate this traffic by itself, further road plannning is required to enable it, failure to do so will make the situation worse not better. What about road repair in those outlying areas - some of the roads are already of appalling quality and the added load is going to quickly worsen that situation.
Where is the money going from the congestion charge - so far I have seen nothing to explain whose pockets will be lined from the revenue. What projects will the money be used for?
Any more suggestions?
jessica: no, buses won't be charged. There's talk of more dedicated bus lanes (thus increasing congestion) and new metro lines to Traff Centre, Stockport and the airport. There'll also be a number of park+rides outside the outer zone. I'll have to check over the details when I get home tonight.
jimbro1000: if I understand correctly, it'll be a device that you carry in the car, and it debits every time you pass the detectors. There will be arrangements for infrequent visitors to get a one-off device. How it copes with people who just cross over without any way to pay, I don't know. Presumably they use ANPR to note the car number, and then a big foot descends from the sky and crushes you.
BTW, although it was advertised as being about the CC in the paper, the CC part seemed peripheral - it was basically an open forum on all matters Trafford. I only stayed about 15 minutes - long enough to pick up a few bits of paper (and to overhear an animated conversation bemoaning the proliferation of badly timed traffic lights) - before I left to do other things.
jimbro1000: if I understand correctly, it'll be a device that you carry in the car, and it debits every time you pass the detectors. There will be arrangements for infrequent visitors to get a one-off device. How it copes with people who just cross over without any way to pay, I don't know. Presumably they use ANPR to note the car number, and then a big foot descends from the sky and crushes you.
BTW, although it was advertised as being about the CC in the paper, the CC part seemed peripheral - it was basically an open forum on all matters Trafford. I only stayed about 15 minutes - long enough to pick up a few bits of paper (and to overhear an animated conversation bemoaning the proliferation of badly timed traffic lights) - before I left to do other things.
Sim89 said:
I want to know where all the ridiculous taxes go
1. Iraq2. Afganistan
3. European Union
4. Remainder split between NHS, schools etc and causes like London Olympics.
I can also give some examples of where it doesn't go
1. Building enough jails
2. Renewing the road infrastructure
3. A decent and affordable public transport system
I can also add that having been "lucky" enough to have worked for most of the last few weeks in London, I have got some opinions on congestion charging from those who use it. At first it slightly improved the situation, but now it is back to how it was, except people are now paying extra for the privelege of sitting in the traffic. The Underground seemed to be a different delay everyday and the Buses are a law onto themselves. It was quicker to walk two miles with a suitcase in tow than either use car/bus/tube.
OK, this is what they say the package will include:
GMPTE bumph said:
30km of new Metro lines (Chorlton-Airport, Chorltn-East Didsbury, Droylsden-Ashton, Oldham, Rochdale, Trafford Park and Stockport)
New bus priority lanes, more buses and some high-quality express services for commuters.
Longer, better and cleaner trains, plus platform and station improvements
New transport interchanges for the regional centre, Altrincham, Rochdale, Stockport and Bolton, a bypass for Ashton and a new transport hub for Wigan.
Local and strategic park and rides at rail and metro stations
New yellow school buses.
On collecting the charge itself, it saysNew bus priority lanes, more buses and some high-quality express services for commuters.
Longer, better and cleaner trains, plus platform and station improvements
New transport interchanges for the regional centre, Altrincham, Rochdale, Stockport and Bolton, a bypass for Ashton and a new transport hub for Wigan.
Local and strategic park and rides at rail and metro stations
New yellow school buses.
GMPTE bumph said:
The charging system would be a simple-to-use card reader. When the vehicle crosses the charging point, the charge is deducted from the card. Infrequent users can register for a scheme enabling them to pre-pay.
What could possibly go wrong?Major Bloodnok said:
jimbro1000: if I understand correctly, it'll be a device that you carry in the car, and it debits every time you pass the detectors. There will be arrangements for infrequent visitors to get a one-off device. How it copes with people who just cross over without any way to pay, I don't know. Presumably they use ANPR to note the car number, and then a big foot descends from the sky and crushes you.
BTW, although it was advertised as being about the CC in the paper, the CC part seemed peripheral - it was basically an open forum on all matters Trafford. I only stayed about 15 minutes - long enough to pick up a few bits of paper (and to overhear an animated conversation bemoaning the proliferation of badly timed traffic lights) - before I left to do other things.
Sounds like I got away lightly then BTW, although it was advertised as being about the CC in the paper, the CC part seemed peripheral - it was basically an open forum on all matters Trafford. I only stayed about 15 minutes - long enough to pick up a few bits of paper (and to overhear an animated conversation bemoaning the proliferation of badly timed traffic lights) - before I left to do other things.
The tracking device sounds like one of the RF-tags that they were talking about putting into number plates. You could just as easily attach it to a windscreen embedded in a paper disc so it doubles up as a visual cue as well. The whole thing smacks of big brother and a major invasion of privacy - maybe not immediately but as part of the grander scheme it offers the powers-that-be far too much information for our respective good. This is exactly the kind of scheme that the government was forced to shelve last year after public opposition.
A terrifying psychology underpins this monumental folly, one evidenced by GMPTE's own publicity in which it cites Livingslime's assault on London as if it's anything other than a disaster for those unfortunates not characterised by membership to the self same Stalinist Elector's voting gene pool, antipodean backpackers or Eastern European oligarchs of dubious means; instead GMPTE present the chaos of the capital's Congestion Tax as something fundamentally good, worthy and obviously desirable.
Such utopian folly: I wondered from whence, once they've driven to despair/ out of the country, those able and/or bothered to continue funding their drab, uniform vision of a socialist landscape, they will uncover the requisite, bottomless money pit (the one they [and their loathesome, unelected, eurocommie traitors] currently believe exists beneath every private sector enterprise in the western world?)
Perhaps there is one man on the planet possessing an even greater luddite gene than the Mayorus Minimum, one to whom the next level of communist ruination bedevilling Britain can next turn - yes, Bolsover's favourite messiah, the incomparable economic success story bar none, Kim Jong-il.
Such utopian folly: I wondered from whence, once they've driven to despair/ out of the country, those able and/or bothered to continue funding their drab, uniform vision of a socialist landscape, they will uncover the requisite, bottomless money pit (the one they [and their loathesome, unelected, eurocommie traitors] currently believe exists beneath every private sector enterprise in the western world?)
Perhaps there is one man on the planet possessing an even greater luddite gene than the Mayorus Minimum, one to whom the next level of communist ruination bedevilling Britain can next turn - yes, Bolsover's favourite messiah, the incomparable economic success story bar none, Kim Jong-il.
Edited by derestrictor on Wednesday 27th June 19:07
Yup really great idea this lets look at the figures eh!!
Car 2001 Mondeo 2.0 tddi average mpg commuting 35mpg
route Ashton-u-Lyne- Manchester city center Bolton 5 days a week round trip 38 miles
taxes taken by the downing street scum
fuel 6 gallons @ £4:20 per gallon £25:20 tax 80% £20:16
Road tax £185 per annum £ 3:56
projected congestion charge £5:00 per day £25:00
total weekly shafting by the cretin party £48:72
now multiply that by 52 for the yearly figure £2533:44
This figure is just extortion I mean when Dick Turpin used to
rob you at least he had the good grace to wear a mask!!!!
Now a few years ago we had an uprising regarding the proposed
increases in fuel duty
we need to make these people in power realise that the motorist will only take so much.
The entire cabinets collective IQ is the same as a tin of beans
And we havn't yet discussed who's going to fund the equipment that will need to make this system work (but i've a pretty good idea who'll foot the bill)
Please someone, anyone who has any influence or the wherewithall
to fund a party to back the 20,000,000 motorists of this once great country please step forward because I for one would give you my vote.
Regards Rob
Car 2001 Mondeo 2.0 tddi average mpg commuting 35mpg
route Ashton-u-Lyne- Manchester city center Bolton 5 days a week round trip 38 miles
taxes taken by the downing street scum
fuel 6 gallons @ £4:20 per gallon £25:20 tax 80% £20:16
Road tax £185 per annum £ 3:56
projected congestion charge £5:00 per day £25:00
total weekly shafting by the cretin party £48:72
now multiply that by 52 for the yearly figure £2533:44
This figure is just extortion I mean when Dick Turpin used to
rob you at least he had the good grace to wear a mask!!!!
Now a few years ago we had an uprising regarding the proposed
increases in fuel duty
we need to make these people in power realise that the motorist will only take so much.
The entire cabinets collective IQ is the same as a tin of beans
And we havn't yet discussed who's going to fund the equipment that will need to make this system work (but i've a pretty good idea who'll foot the bill)
Please someone, anyone who has any influence or the wherewithall
to fund a party to back the 20,000,000 motorists of this once great country please step forward because I for one would give you my vote.
Regards Rob
Edited by tdm34ds on Wednesday 27th June 23:27
tdm34ds said:
Now a few years ago we had an uprising regarding the proposed
increases in fuel duty
we need to make these people in power realise that the motorist will only take so much.
The entire cabinets collective IQ is the same as a tin of beans
And we havn't yet discussed who's going to fund the equipment that will need to make this system work (but i've a pretty good idea who'll foot the bill)
I think this is where a lot of people are making a grave mistake - the people behind the current scheme are proving themselves to be of at least notable intellect and are applying it to this matter.increases in fuel duty
we need to make these people in power realise that the motorist will only take so much.
The entire cabinets collective IQ is the same as a tin of beans
And we havn't yet discussed who's going to fund the equipment that will need to make this system work (but i've a pretty good idea who'll foot the bill)
The basic idea is to get traffic monitoring equipment countrywide as the basis of pay-as-you-drive taxation but as already proven the public won't stand for it. The government backs down on the idea, remarkably gracefully (no doubt earning themselves some brownie points with various voters). Instead of using the elected management process to push the idea instead they foist it off on the unelected management - the local councils. You can't vote these people out of power and the due process to get them to turn back on any of the hairbrained schemes is painful to say the least.
Rather than face the combined force of a million or so vocal voters nationwide who publically made their thoughts very clear on the governments own website they have divvied the country up so that just a handful of admittedly large cities now have the project pilot under their control. The number of constituents likely to raise a voice against it is hugely reduced and far less likely to get themselves organised but to make things even worse they throw in the £30m donation towards public transport in your region if you take up the congestion charge *and* make the systems intercompatible so they can be joined up in the future.
As already pointed out a rather substantial 60-odd percent of the public have said they don't want a congestion charge in Manchester but a similarly substantial 50-odd percent (see the other thread on congestion charging for more accurate figures) stated that the public transport was needed. That is clever work on behalf of the council. The actual percentage that would reject the congestion charge outright on that basis is in the region of just 10% although a further 50% don't like the idea but might just accept it if the public transport idea worked well enough. It also suggests that the remaining 40% are all for the congestion charge irrespective of what it means for public transport. So what you are left with is a 4:1 vote in favour of the charge.
So in the end it looks highly likely that the government will get its way regardless of what has gone before and worse still will come up squeeky clean from the matter, possibly even with a rise in popularity over the public transport improvements.
Tell me then - are these the acts of a bunch of stupid people with IQs that read more like the football results?
I'm with you all the way on standing up to this - it is a horribly insidious approach and if successful paves the way for yet more heartache for motorists. Assuming that your opponent is stupid however is a recipe for failure. Just standing up and shouting "go home" is just going to make you look stupid and have virtually no impact at all on the process. What is needed is a more considered approach. Go along to the community meetings and raise all those questions, make the other visitors think about what they are actually accepting, do this and the 4:1 vote swings in your favour. Ultimately you have to be in the right meetings with the right evidence that suggests that proves that the council is wrong. Just remember that the civil servants employed by city hall are paid to do this and are not directly answerable to the public. They can steamroller you on this so you have to make them fear for their jobs. Don't just send one letter of complaint to your local council, send 3 or 4, a few weeks apart and make sure it is recorded delivery - it might cost more but it gives you the proof that they have received it and most likely ignored it.
selwonk said:
I've just come in from near Ashton. Set off at 8.15, went to the ATM, filled the car up, came through the city centre (Deansgate) and I was at Old Trafford Cricket Ground for 8.45
What congestion?
Of course but don't let such realities obscure the opportunity for another damn good round of tax assaulting.What congestion?
with the traffic in the city center being brutal (try commuting there daily by car in the morning!) and with devolution (MCC could directly access cash it generates?) + all the investment/building in the city, I think there's a good chance the congestion charge will pop its head up again soon
Can't see it coming up again soon. Think people would go ape s
t what with all the traffic the road works are causing on the M60 which in turn is why everything is so much worse right now. I've gone to go to the trafford centre a couple times now and for no reason the traffic just comes to an absolute standstill for 2 miles it takes nearly an hour to get through and then.... nothing.
To be fair they should have never imposed the 50mph average limit for so much of the m60 and for so long. That was a ridiculous decision. Especially since they never seem to be working on the bloody thing!
t what with all the traffic the road works are causing on the M60 which in turn is why everything is so much worse right now. I've gone to go to the trafford centre a couple times now and for no reason the traffic just comes to an absolute standstill for 2 miles it takes nearly an hour to get through and then.... nothing.To be fair they should have never imposed the 50mph average limit for so much of the m60 and for so long. That was a ridiculous decision. Especially since they never seem to be working on the bloody thing!
If a colleague and councillor in Bolton is to be beleived then, they oppose it. We were sold the cogestion charge on the basis of other transport improvements, all of which have or are have or are happening. My personal opinion is much of the city centre congestion has been deliberatly engineered, why replace every pelican crossing point, junction layout improvements which seem to drag on for months, but then what do I know!
Gassing Station | North West | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff