Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

[k2sherpa]

gwm said:

k2sherpa said:

As a long term lurker / observer this is one of the reasons why I haven't signed up / posted until now, I feel some people post absolute nonsense and it all ends up in a mud slinging match. However after reading the 3 posts above I felt I had to sign up. Would any of you care to back up your general sweeping statements and maybe educate me?

I'd love to know what educated / elevated positions in society you all hold that enables you to look down on the rest of society and judge. gym, what would you class as educated but not contributing much to society? Doctor, teacher, nurse, fireman???

As an aside, I know 3 extremely wealthy individuals that are degree educated, however because of family money don't work. I'd say in that respect they don't contribute a huge amount to society (compared to a doctor, nurse, teacher, fireman). They are firm no voters. Does this mean all educated/wealthy people are no voters or is it only the ones who don't contribute to society?

Well as has been said, it's general observations from my own personal experience - empirical evidence not based on any poll. Of all the No voters I know, all work. Of the Yes voters I can think of off the top of my head, one is a perpetual student (for no good reason), one is on welfare, 2 sponge off their parents. Extending that to friends of friends, its low skilled and/ or unemployed people of the chavy type. Might sound snobby, but I don't know many people that can afford to take such a massive risk to their livelihood apart from those that don't have much to lose.

And unlike the diehard Nationalists who dare to question my patriotism because I won't vote Yes, maybe think about how lucky we are that we get to vote and respect the democracy that so many would (and have) died for.

Fair enough if that's your own experience I can't disagree. I must admit it's the snobbery aspect of a lot of the no voters that get's me. I like to think that Scot's as a whole are less prone to snobbery however you see so many posts from no voters to the contrary.

From my experience based on my circle of friends the split in voting is
J - Offshore worker - non degree - Yes
L - Medicine - Yes
M - Company Director - No
S - Teacher - Yes
S - Teacher - Yes
J - Accountant - Yes
L - Teacher - Yes
J - Farmer - No
B - Teacher - No
G - Business Degree - Yes
Me - Engineer - Yes
S - Teacher - Yes
J - Degree - Doesn't work - No
E - Degree - Doesn't work - No
K - Degree - works (use term loosely) - No

Apologies for the list, just typed it as it came out of my head along with the initials of my friends. As you can see it's the complete opposite to your list and that's my point, every person's circle of friends will be different depending on who they are, where they live, circumstances etc. And none of the Yes voters amongst my friends can afford to risk losing everything, the exact opposite, we are all voting yes as we believe things will be for the better. The last 3 no voters are all from very wealthy family's and don't work, go figure

As for your point about being lucky to be able to vote and respecting democracy, that's the main reason why I'm voting yes. In my eyes we don't have a democracy. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it's about getting an elected government you want. As it stands right now Westminster can do what they please and there's not a damn thing we can do about it, regardless of how we vote (I mean in general elections as opposed to the independence referendum). How is that democratic? With independence we can vote parties in or out based on how they perform / govern, now that's democracy.

[Rollin]

Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.

[jamieduff1981]

Rollin said:

Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.

Particularly worth noting when it's realised that you can do as much background research and soul searching as you want but your vote can be cancelled out by someone who thinks the sky is a carpet and learned all their opinions in a pub.

[Lefty]

Given the demographics involved I can see the protests after the No vote becoming really unpleasant. Vandalism, petty crime, certainly breach of the peace type stuff, even violence or rioting.

Scary really.

[k2sherpa]

jamieduff1981 said:

Rollin said:

Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.

Particularly worth noting when it's realised that you can do as much background research and soul searching as you want but your vote can be cancelled out by someone who thinks the sky is a carpet and learned all their opinions in a pub.

So Rollin do you think the people of Scotland are fairly and democratically represented with the current Westminster government? Taken straight from wikipedia "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally". The others are absolute monarchy, oligarchy or a dictatorship.

James, I'm not sure if you're referring to my opinions being learned in a pub. If so sorry to disappoint, I've done my own research and wouldn't be voting the way I am otherwise.

[jamieduff1981]

k2sherpa said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Rollin said:

Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.

Particularly worth noting when it's realised that you can do as much background research and soul searching as you want but your vote can be cancelled out by someone who thinks the sky is a carpet and learned all their opinions in a pub.

So Rollin do you think the people of Scotland are fairly and democratically represented with the current Westminster government? Taken straight from wikipedia "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally". The others are absolute monarchy, oligarchy or a dictatorship.

James, I'm not sure if you're referring to my opinions being learned in a pub. If so sorry to disappoint, I've done my own research and wouldn't be voting the way I am otherwise.

Not your opinions per se although I do believe you've arrived at the wrong conclusion.

I do believe that Scotland is fairly represented in Westminster. I believe we have more influence on England than they have on us due to our right to vote on Westminster matters but not vice versa.

I personally have a huge national pride in my British identity and actively wish to retain that prestigious identity.

The trouble with democracy is that you get what most people vote for. Promises of free stuff will always win more votes than any sort of reality talk. I will never get the government I want regardless of the size of the country because I earn too much to benefit from the vote winning free stuff but not enough to buy off politicians. I will get shafted whatever happens.

Given that, I'd rather be secure in the UK with a British passport than leap into a small-minded pit of nationalistic flag waving.

Part of me would like to see the SNP actually try to negotiate anything with international stakeholders because Salmond would get ripped apart. Not with my future though.

[Rollin]

k2sherpa said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Rollin said:

Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.

Particularly worth noting when it's realised that you can do as much background research and soul searching as you want but your vote can be cancelled out by someone who thinks the sky is a carpet and learned all their opinions in a pub.

So Rollin do you think the people of Scotland are fairly and democratically represented with the current Westminster government? Taken straight from wikipedia "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally". The others are absolute monarchy, oligarchy or a dictatorship.

James, I'm not sure if you're referring to my opinions being learned in a pub. If so sorry to disappoint, I've done my own research and wouldn't be voting the way I am otherwise.

You said

" In my eyes we don't have a democracy. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it's about getting an elected government you want. As it stands right now Westminster can do what they please and there's not a damn thing we can do about it, regardless of how we vote (I mean in general elections as opposed to the independence referendum). How is that democratic? With independence we can vote parties in or out based on how they perform / govern, now that's democracy."

I don't know who the "we" is in your statement. If "we" is people with the same political views as yourself, then you will not always get the government you want. Just like any other group in the UK.

You say democracy is when citizens participate equally. Seems you want more say for your views in the UK than other citizens. Why?

[Edinburger]

Guys, do you realise there are two other threads discussing the same points?

[HenryJM]

Edinburger said:

Guys, do you realise there are two other threads discussing the same points?

Well the only reason these others got anywhere was because of Nats who were banned from the main thread. ViperPict and pcvdriver where the obvious ones, and you have to wonder whether pcvdriver has been banned again.

[jamieduff1981]

Rollin said:

k2sherpa said:

jamieduff1981 said:

Rollin said:

Unfortunately democracy isn't about getting the government you personally want.

Particularly worth noting when it's realised that you can do as much background research and soul searching as you want but your vote can be cancelled out by someone who thinks the sky is a carpet and learned all their opinions in a pub.

So Rollin do you think the people of Scotland are fairly and democratically represented with the current Westminster government? Taken straight from wikipedia "Democracy is a form of government in which all eligible citizens are meant to participate equally". The others are absolute monarchy, oligarchy or a dictatorship.

James, I'm not sure if you're referring to my opinions being learned in a pub. If so sorry to disappoint, I've done my own research and wouldn't be voting the way I am otherwise.

You said

" In my eyes we don't have a democracy. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it's about getting an elected government you want. As it stands right now Westminster can do what they please and there's not a damn thing we can do about it, regardless of how we vote (I mean in general elections as opposed to the independence referendum). How is that democratic? With independence we can vote parties in or out based on how they perform / govern, now that's democracy."

I don't know who the "we" is in your statement. If "we" is people with the same political views as yourself, then you will not always get the government you want. Just like any other group in the UK.

You say democracy is when citizens participate equally. Seems you want more say for your views in the UK than other citizens. Why?

I can answer that. Nobody really wants a democracy but the most ardent of idealists. The vast majority who say 'democracy' really mean 'getting their own way'.

If they get what they want it's a democracy. If they don't get what they want it isn't.

Some people seem to believe that by voting for a smaller country they will somehow have more control although in practise nothing really changes. Salmond wants power although he claims this is about Scotland. It isn't. He'll never be PM of the UK so he wants his own playground.

A number of people hope that things like self-interested politicians will become a thing of the past in a smaller country. They wont. Why on earth would the type of person who becomes a career politician change to idealistic rightious people? It's nonsense - but they want to believe it. If you feel powerless it's because you are powerless and you'll always be powerless regardless of the national constitution you're powerless in.

[gofasterrosssco]

So, one of the worlds oldest democracies is no longer democratic because Labour got the boot and that doesn't suit one set of voters, hence it's now an undemocratic institution..

You could apply the same lack of understanding of what democracy means to just about any country and find a large proportion who don't always or mostly get what they vote for. Why don't we all just deseminate into little tribes so we always get the tribal leader we vote for.. As long as we all vote for him/her...

[The Moose]

I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!

[Stwdv]

Over the past weeks I have been amazed at the people I know well who are very intelligent have good jobs and i respect who will be voting yes
We should be under no illusion the level of support from all walks of life and not pigeon hole people!!!

[yellowbentines]

gofasterrosssco said:

You could apply the same lack of understanding of what democracy means to just about any country and find a large proportion who don't always or mostly get what they vote for. Why don't we all just deseminate into little tribes so we always get the tribal leader we vote for.. As long as we all vote for him/her...

Indeed. In the last Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2011 SNP got less than 50% of the votes based on number of actual individuals that voted - so by the logic of those who feel we in Scotland are governed by a Westminster parliament we didn't vote for, then surely we are also governed in Scotland by an SNP parliament that the majority didn't vote for either?

Should we divide the country up into independently governed regions based on political leaning?

I'm all for picking up the claymores and going back to clan rule

[Lefty]

The Moose said:

I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!

I'm Scottish. Born here, lived here all my life (apart from a year in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here. I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I work in a thriving industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities. I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside.

I have no idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:05

[Lefty]

The Moose said:

I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!

I'm Scottish and have Scottish ancestry going back hundreds of years. Born here, lived here all my life (well, apart from a year working in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here and plan to stay here.

I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I run a business in a thriving Scottish industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities.

I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside. My wife is from London but feels the same, way, we have no desire to live anywhere else.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:25

[Stwdv]

Lefty said:

Given the demographics involved I can see the protests after the No vote becoming really unpleasant. Vandalism, petty crime, certainly breach of the peace type stuff, even violence or rioting.

Scary really.

Its already happening with the defacing of posters ?

[rossybee]

Lefty said:

The Moose said:

I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!

I'm Scottish. Born here, lived here all my life (apart from a year in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here. I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I work in a thriving industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities. I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside.

I have no idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:05

You've pretty much summed up my views (apart from the Dublin bit, nice place that it is)

[gwm]

rossybee said:

You've pretty much summed up my views (apart from the Dublin bit, nice place that it is)

Ditto. But alas some are greedy and/ or suffer from the grass is always greener mentality.

[The Moose]

Lefty said:

The Moose said:

I know I'm coming into this a tad late, however I'm curious about it.

Could someone give me a brief run down of why some of the Scots want independence?

I ask the question as to me, it'd seem that economically Scottish independence doesn't make a lot of sense. Whilst it may well be that not everything is about money, it's rather important in this instance!!

I'm Scottish and have Scottish ancestry going back hundreds of years. Born here, lived here all my life (well, apart from a year working in Dublin). Studied here, worked here, live here and plan to stay here.

I love Scotland, it's a great place, a beautiful place, a varied place. I run a business in a thriving Scottish industry, make decent money, have a great standard of living. Good schools for my kids, good healthcare, good opportunities.

I love the roads, I love the whisky, I love the scenery, I love the cities and the islands and the countryside. My wife is from London but feels the same, way, we have no desire to live anywhere else.

I have no earthly idea why anyone would want independence.

ETA: I take serious offence that some nationalist knucklehead might suggest that I'm not a true Scot because I like things the way they are!

Edited by Lefty on Thursday 21st August 10:25

Surely there's a reason these people want independence - do we know what it is?

I'm English, never been to Scotland (that's a slight lie - I went for about 5 hours - flew into Edinburgh to buy a motorbike, found out that in fact it had been misdescribed so jumped on another bike, got on the motorway and hottailed it out of there!) although always admired it from the photographs.

I wouldn't have thought it'd make that much difference to me in the long run, however I am curious as to the thoughts behind it. None of the people I know down here who used to live in Scotland seem to be able to tell me either...