Who is bogging off after the YES vote?
Discussion
GoneAnon said:
The EU have NOT said that. An unelected official, however senior, expressed HIS opinion. That is all.
What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
Seems clear to me - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybus...What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
It's obviously not a guaranteed result of independance but as advice goes it's pretty clear.
GoneAnon said:
slipstream 1985 said:
GoneAnon said:
slipstream 1985 said:
A big supermrket chain (none i have previously or currently worked for) have put on hold a new store needed in the east side of scotland to wait and see what the vote brings. Mainly an English based outfit so I imagine they are waiting incase of a yes vote and will pull the plans.
I heard there was a similar situation when Santa Claus Land voted to become independent. The Santa's Little Helpers Company put their investment plans on hold ahead of the referendum result.Luckily, the elves voted the right way, the Christmas gift business has gone from strength to strength, and we all lived happily ever after.
In other words, a story about an un-named company, in an un-named location, at an unspecified time, without any evidence to support any aspect isn't really a story, unless it's in the BBC, in the mainstream press or on the Scotland forum of Pistonheads!
The funny thing about businesses is that they exist to make money. They aren't trading here to ensure we don't starve on our own, after all. If they can make enough money they will operate anywhere. Tesco have already said as much and I can't be bothered going looking for statements from the rest. All the wailing about the difficulty of operating across the border is a bit nonsensical when the same companies already trade across lots of other borders.
As for my source most people in the retail world know how each other are doing and you tend to meet people as you change from company to company.
Sainsburys being 1 of the few bigger outfits to actually be doing well just now as tesco,asda and morrisons are currently having their asses handed to them by aldi and lidl.
barryrs said:
GoneAnon said:
The EU have NOT said that. An unelected official, however senior, expressed HIS opinion. That is all.
What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
Seems clear to me - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybus...What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
It's obviously not a guaranteed result of independance but as advice goes it's pretty clear.
GoneAnon said:
barryrs said:
GoneAnon said:
The EU have NOT said that. An unelected official, however senior, expressed HIS opinion. That is all.
What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
Seems clear to me - http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybus...What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
It's obviously not a guaranteed result of independance but as advice goes it's pretty clear.
GoneAnon said:
I'm not reading all of that but I did browse the exchange of letters between an MSP and an unelected commissioner and I can't see anything even remotely clear-cut about Scotland being out of the EU. If I'm missing something please point me towards the document I need to read.
You've been shown the documents you need to read to get a clear understanding of the position, but apparently you can't be bothered to read them.
Bottom line: If Scotland exits the UK, then it exits the EU. There may be a way for Scotland to negotiate a swift (or swifter than average) entry to the EU, but it is highly unlikely to be able to do so and retain all the UK's existing opt-outs. It is also extremely likely that it will have to commit to joining the Euro, for which it will have to have its own currency, central bank, and run a balanced budget (i.e. no significant deficit) for a significant period beforehand.
It clearly states that Scotland would not be a signatory of EU treaties upon independance and as such would need to apply, under which article is debatable.
Considering the EU is founded upon treaties and any action it takes is based upon them if Scotland isn't a signatory how would EU membership be possible?
The Scottish government within the latest report accept that they cannot apply until independance is achieved so even with an optimistic 18 month application process there will be a period of non membership where treaties do not apply.
I know this is not 100% fact as we won't know for sure until the process is started however all the evidence suggests the above to be the case so there is considerable risk.
That risk has not been acknowledged publicly by the SNP.
Considering the EU is founded upon treaties and any action it takes is based upon them if Scotland isn't a signatory how would EU membership be possible?
The Scottish government within the latest report accept that they cannot apply until independance is achieved so even with an optimistic 18 month application process there will be a period of non membership where treaties do not apply.
I know this is not 100% fact as we won't know for sure until the process is started however all the evidence suggests the above to be the case so there is considerable risk.
That risk has not been acknowledged publicly by the SNP.
Well, as I'm REALLY not fussed about being in or out of the EU, I'm happy to stick with my YES vote and see what happens after the 18th. Not long to go now.
All the people trying to make this into any kind of single issue decision need to look around them.
There is more to it than £s, currency or whatever. The fundamental thing is that if we had remained independent for the last 300 and odd years and were being invited to join the UK today on the terms we have now, would we?
59 MPs out of 650 (and our number is going down again!)
No seat on the Monetary Policy Committee (so how much control will we have on interest rates and currency in this new union)
We'll store your nukes in our country so you don't have to. And we'd love to keep the rusting hulks tied up near our capital city.
Unelected house of Lords, many of them place-men who "just happen" to be party donors.
You can decide when and why to send our people off to war.
Aye right!
All the people trying to make this into any kind of single issue decision need to look around them.
There is more to it than £s, currency or whatever. The fundamental thing is that if we had remained independent for the last 300 and odd years and were being invited to join the UK today on the terms we have now, would we?
59 MPs out of 650 (and our number is going down again!)
No seat on the Monetary Policy Committee (so how much control will we have on interest rates and currency in this new union)
We'll store your nukes in our country so you don't have to. And we'd love to keep the rusting hulks tied up near our capital city.
Unelected house of Lords, many of them place-men who "just happen" to be party donors.
You can decide when and why to send our people off to war.
Aye right!
Glasgow isn't our capital city.
Out of curiosity - what is it you understand the advantages and disadvantages of EU membership are?
I acknowledge that you place no value on it, as you place no value on the advantages and disadvantages the United Kingdom brings.
I'm fascinated to know whether your dismissiveness of the EU is based upon carefully considered weighing up of the facts or whether like many people it's filed away under 'I know nothing about it therefore it's not needed' - like the sort of people who just go through their computer deleting things they don't recognise then wonder why something doesn't work any more.
Out of curiosity - what is it you understand the advantages and disadvantages of EU membership are?
I acknowledge that you place no value on it, as you place no value on the advantages and disadvantages the United Kingdom brings.
I'm fascinated to know whether your dismissiveness of the EU is based upon carefully considered weighing up of the facts or whether like many people it's filed away under 'I know nothing about it therefore it's not needed' - like the sort of people who just go through their computer deleting things they don't recognise then wonder why something doesn't work any more.
jamieduff1981 said:
Glasgow isn't our capital city.
Out of curiosity - what is it you understand the advantages and disadvantages of EU membership are?
I acknowledge that you place no value on it, as you place no value on the advantages and disadvantages the United Kingdom brings.
I'm fascinated to know whether your dismissiveness of the EU is based upon carefully considered weighing up of the facts or whether like many people it's filed away under 'I know nothing about it therefore it's not needed' - like the sort of people who just go through their computer deleting things they don't recognise then wonder why something doesn't work any more.
The EU was supposed to be a trading area. Instead it has become a vast bloated beaurocracy that can't even get its own accounts signed off and yet we keep shoveling cash into an extraordinarily wasteful (and probably corrupt) system, including the nonsense of shifting the whole show between two cities for no obvious reason except politics.Out of curiosity - what is it you understand the advantages and disadvantages of EU membership are?
I acknowledge that you place no value on it, as you place no value on the advantages and disadvantages the United Kingdom brings.
I'm fascinated to know whether your dismissiveness of the EU is based upon carefully considered weighing up of the facts or whether like many people it's filed away under 'I know nothing about it therefore it's not needed' - like the sort of people who just go through their computer deleting things they don't recognise then wonder why something doesn't work any more.
Westminster simply doesn't represent the UK any more. Why do we gold-plate every rule handed down from on-high while other "partners" in the european projevt just ignore it?
The rusting hulks are tied up at Rosyth, just across the Forth from EDINBURGH. The weapons are close to our LARGEST city, Glasgow.
But keep the assumptions coming because my computer is working just fine. And referring to people as "him" or "he" must be a Nae-trait - Alistair Darling did it to poor effect in the debate and I see it happens here too!
GoneAnon said:
The EU have NOT said that. An unelected official, however senior, expressed HIS opinion. That is all.
What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
or as the Current government have pointed out before coming out in support of the No comapiagn would just be used for infantile political 'capital' by the yes campaign and/or labour and/or the actual eft .What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
GoneAnon said:
simoid said:
GoneAnon said:
Bitter Thegither used the roaming charges story some time ago.
Sadly (for them) the day they ran the story was also the same day the EU announced the end of roaming charges so the only likely theat will be if we vote Naw and then the UK government take us out of Europe.
Personally, I'd rather be out of both the UK and Europe and pay roaming charges when needed.
As for the international dialling code, that could be quite cool, same as the .scot web domain.
I think you've got yourself a bit mixed up there. The UK is a member of the UK, but Scotland isn't.Sadly (for them) the day they ran the story was also the same day the EU announced the end of roaming charges so the only likely theat will be if we vote Naw and then the UK government take us out of Europe.
Personally, I'd rather be out of both the UK and Europe and pay roaming charges when needed.
As for the international dialling code, that could be quite cool, same as the .scot web domain.
Also, when there's a naw vote, we won't have to pay roaming charges in England. It's all the same country
As long as Scotland is still part of the EU we won't have roaming charges anywhere in Europe unless we vote no and England then votes to take the UK out of Europe. We would then have no roaming charges south of the border but WOULD have them in Europe.
If we go independent we won't have roaming charges anywhere in Europe, but may have them in England. I'll take my chances...
Other people have pointed out that the Scottish government have asked the EU, twice, what the script is and they have been informed by that committee leader or whoever.
Barroso also said new states have to apply.
Juncker also said he agreed with Barroso after being asked by that UKIP guy.
Scotland will have to apply for EU membership without all the goodies that the UK has - no euro opt out, no rebate, no VAT opt out, hopefully we'll manage to get away without schengen borders but I wouldn't trust our MSPs not to f
k those negotiations up either.GoneAnon said:
The EU have NOT said that. An unelected official, however senior, expressed HIS opinion. That is all.
What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
I said that before in the main referendum thread and was shot down for saying so.What the EU DID say is that if the existing member state (the UK) asked the question, they would answer.
For reasons unknown, my elected government in Westminster has REFUSED to ask the question. Now, if you were so certain of what the answer would be, why WOULDN'T you ask, unless you KNEW the answer was NOT what you wanted to hear/present? I sometimes think that the UK government is supposed to represent ALL their constituents, not just the ones that they agree with, but I shouldn't be surprised really.
Scottish voters are entitled to an informed choice but you could say that was denied to us for this, and other, reasons.
Edinburger said:
I said that before in the main referendum thread and was shot down for saying so.
Scottish voters are entitled to an informed choice but you could say that was denied to us for this, and other, reasons.
I struggle with this EB.Scottish voters are entitled to an informed choice but you could say that was denied to us for this, and other, reasons.
Is the information on the Scottish Governments website not enough to draw your own conclusions as to the risk of voting yes and EU membership?
To me it sounds like nationalists assert that Scotland wont be thrown out of the EU; and i whole wholeheartedly agree that to be the case however its highly unlikely that Scotland will be a signatory to all EU treaties at the point of independence.
What use is EU membership without its treaties?
If Scotland votes yes then a meaningful negotiation can start but the Scottish government accept that they cant apply to become signatory's until independence is gained. The SNP have a target of 18 months to agree separation with the rUK and on that date they could formally signup to said treaties.
However there is a considerable risk that Scotland wont be able to agree terms with the EU whilst at the same time negotiating separation.
barryrs said:
I struggle with this EB.
Is the information on the Scottish Governments website not enough to draw your own conclusions as to the risk of voting yes and EU membership?
To me it sounds like nationalists assert that Scotland wont be thrown out of the EU; and i whole wholeheartedly agree that to be the case however its highly unlikely that Scotland will be a signatory to all EU treaties at the point of independence.
What use is EU membership without its treaties?
If Scotland votes yes then a meaningful negotiation can start but the Scottish government accept that they cant apply to become signatory's until independence is gained. The SNP have a target of 18 months to agree separation with the rUK and on that date they could formally signup to said treaties.
However there is a considerable risk that Scotland wont be able to agree terms with the EU whilst at the same time negotiating separation.
It's the treaties which make a state a member of the EU, so if you haven't signed the relevant treaties you're not a member.Is the information on the Scottish Governments website not enough to draw your own conclusions as to the risk of voting yes and EU membership?
To me it sounds like nationalists assert that Scotland wont be thrown out of the EU; and i whole wholeheartedly agree that to be the case however its highly unlikely that Scotland will be a signatory to all EU treaties at the point of independence.
What use is EU membership without its treaties?
If Scotland votes yes then a meaningful negotiation can start but the Scottish government accept that they cant apply to become signatory's until independence is gained. The SNP have a target of 18 months to agree separation with the rUK and on that date they could formally signup to said treaties.
However there is a considerable risk that Scotland wont be able to agree terms with the EU whilst at the same time negotiating separation.
I don't recall anyone saying Scotland would be thrown out of the EU. As Scotland is part of the EU by being part of the UK, a decision by Scotland to leave the UK would also be a decision to leave the EU. That would be the sovereign will of the people. Just a shame the 'Yes' campaign doesn't want to the people to deal with these realities.
Alec Salmond keeps banging on about an independent Scotland not being governed by another country, yet he is hell bent on EU membership.
That carries with it the implicit membership of the European Parliament and acceding to the sometimes daft new EU laws and demands of that load of spongers along with the whims of the unelected Euro Commissioners. (So stop whining about the House of Lords).
As a percentage of the votes in the UK parliament, through the elected (by Scots) Scottish MP's, it runs at close to 10%. We are close to 10% of the UK population, so not so bad pro rata.
What's our effective Euro MP representation in the EU parliament? How strong a voice will we really have?
That carries with it the implicit membership of the European Parliament and acceding to the sometimes daft new EU laws and demands of that load of spongers along with the whims of the unelected Euro Commissioners. (So stop whining about the House of Lords).
As a percentage of the votes in the UK parliament, through the elected (by Scots) Scottish MP's, it runs at close to 10%. We are close to 10% of the UK population, so not so bad pro rata.
What's our effective Euro MP representation in the EU parliament? How strong a voice will we really have?
Mad Jock said:
Alec Salmond keeps banging on about an independent Scotland not being governed by another country, yet he is hell bent on EU membership.
That carries with it the implicit membership of the European Parliament and acceding to the sometimes daft new EU laws and demands of that load of spongers along with the whims of the unelected Euro Commissioners. (So stop whining about the House of Lords).
As a percentage of the votes in the UK parliament, through the elected (by Scots) Scottish MP's, it runs at close to 10%. We are close to 10% of the UK population, so not so bad pro rata.
What's our effective Euro MP representation in the EU parliament? How strong a voice will we really have?
All of which illustrates what a myth independence really is. It amounts to not much more than a shuffle of the suits, titles and expense accounts. Which would be fine if it wasn't going to cost us all so much.That carries with it the implicit membership of the European Parliament and acceding to the sometimes daft new EU laws and demands of that load of spongers along with the whims of the unelected Euro Commissioners. (So stop whining about the House of Lords).
As a percentage of the votes in the UK parliament, through the elected (by Scots) Scottish MP's, it runs at close to 10%. We are close to 10% of the UK population, so not so bad pro rata.
What's our effective Euro MP representation in the EU parliament? How strong a voice will we really have?
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