Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

[ViperPict]

Gaspode said:

ViperPict said:

Why we want to be a part of a wider European community while the UK wants out?

Stop talking rubbish.

(a) the UK doesn't want out of the EU, just UKIP

(b) the Yes vote guarantees that Scotland leaves the EU, with no simple route back in, and several countries opposed to it.

The great thing about Scotland going independent is that once the rest of Britain sees how crap it gets for Scotland, and how quickly it happens, they'll be much less likely to believe the UKIP nonsense about how it will all be better for the UK outside the EU.

I reckon a Yes vote will ensure Scotland leaves the EU and ensure the UK stays in.

Both points A and B are wrong. There is definitely a movement in England to remove the UK from the EU - no question!

The EU issue has NOT been decided - if it had, Westminster would be latching onto this. It COULD be decided if Westminster directly asked the question of the EU but they refuse to - I wonder why?! In reality, the transition of an independent Scotland into the EU will likely be very simple. There is no reason they would not want Scotland in and removing us would go against fundamental principals of the EU.

[barryrs]

Will Scotland be negotiating with the EU & the UK simultaneously after a Yes vote?

Do you think its realistic for Scotland to agree terms with the rUK & the EU in 18 months?

What happens if Scotland doesnt sign the EU treaties on independence day; surely you must accept that if Scotland arent signatory's of the treaties they arent members of the EU?

ViperPict said:

Both points A and B are wrong. There is definitely a movement in England to remove the UK from the EU - no question!

As i said the polls demonstrate that there is also an anti EU sentiment in Scotland that is about the same as the rUK

Edited by barryrs on Friday 5th September 09:24

[mph1977]

The EU issue has NOT been decided - if it had, Westminster would be latching onto this. It COULD be decided if Westminster directly asked the question of the EU but they refuse to - I wonder why?! In reality, the transition of an independent Scotland into the EU will likely be very simple. There is no reason they would not want Scotland in and removing us would go against fundamental principals of the EU.


[/quote]

1. By leaving the UK Scotland leaves the EU, Sterling and the British Isles common travel area of it's own free will.

2. Why would Spain, France and Germany who have their own issues with secessionist ateas let Scotland back in to the EU abd fuel their own splitters...

Scotland becoming Independent is nit like buying a Burger in Burger King , neither the UK nor the EU has to give it "your way", nor for that matter is Scottish independence like shopping in M&S - "there is no plan B"...

[ViperPict]

barryrs said:

Will Scotland be negotiating with the EU & the UK simultaneously after a Yes vote?

Do you think its realistic for Scotland to agree terms with the rUK & the EU in 18 months?

What happens if Scotland doesnt sign the EU treaties on independence day; surely you must accept that if Scotland arent signatory's of the treaties they arent members of the EU?

All very workable. Where there's a will and all that...

[barryrs]

ViperPict said:

barryrs said:

Will Scotland be negotiating with the EU & the UK simultaneously after a Yes vote?

Do you think its realistic for Scotland to agree terms with the rUK & the EU in 18 months?

What happens if Scotland doesnt sign the EU treaties on independence day; surely you must accept that if Scotland arent signatory's of the treaties they arent members of the EU?

All very workable. Where there's a will and all that...

But that will has to be reciprocated by other parties.

Why would it be in rUK interests to rush negotiations?

Since when has the EU ever been able to rush through legislation?

You also have to remember that alterations to some treaties trigger the requirement of some nations to carry out a home referendum. What if the inclusion of Scotland triggered a referendum in France?

[ViperPict]

mph1977 said:

1. By leaving the UK Scotland leaves the EU, Sterling and the British Isles common travel area of it's own free will.

2. Why would Spain, France and Germany who have their own issues with secessionist ateas let Scotland back in to the EU abd fuel their own splitters...

Scotland becoming Independent is nit like buying a Burger in Burger King , neither the UK nor the EU has to give it "your way", nor for that matter is Scottish independence like shopping in M&S - "there is no plan B"...

Spain etc won't be voting on whether to include a new country to the EU though.

We will have a currency union, of that there is no doubt. Not an issue that Westminster are nice charitable folk but because the are knackered without us. Hence market 'jitters'. From the FT:

"Currency investors would apparently be particularly concerned by the UK’s persistent current account deficit if this were no longer offset by North Sea oil revenues.”

Edited by ViperPict on Friday 5th September 09:36

Edited by ViperPict on Friday 5th September 09:36

[barryrs]

ViperPict said:

Spain etc won't be voting on whether to include a new country to the EU though.

But they will have to approve Scottish signing of the treaties; they may take their time.

ViperPict said:

We will have a currency union, of that there is no doubt. Not an issue that Westminster are nice charitable folk but because the are knackered without us. Hence market 'jitters'. From the FT:

Im less convinced as this issue have been highly politicised in the rUK with all mainstream parties taking the same stance.

To assume it will happen because of a feeling of self importance smacks of more blind faith

ViperPict said:

"Currency investors would apparently be particularly concerned by the UK’s persistent current account deficit if this were no longer offset by North Sea oil revenues.”

Again im less convinced; known assets will be divided upon separation and the exact amount to remain with the rUK is to be negotiated. Will Salmond relinquish a fair share of North Sea oil & gas to meet his deadline?

Thats assuming you ignore the UN's recent involvement with Sudan (50/50)

Edited by barryrs on Friday 5th September 09:59

[Rollin]

Why is Salmond so desperate for a currency union?

[exitwound]

All that matters to me is the fact that I can vote for a political party here in Scotland with primarily Scottish matters to concern it.

Time some people grew a pair and embraced the fact that Scots may soon have the chance to run their own country. Yes it will be difficult, we will fall down a lot, and its not a land of milk and honey, but its worth the risk at any cost to secure a future for generations to come. I drive an old Corvette and a Chevy pickup and I predict bad things for the running of both, due to the amount of tree huggers in the SP, but I'm willing to take the risk, for the sake of a better future for all.

I'm willing to take the leap of faith just for that.. If it fails, then there's no one to blame except us. If we're better together, then why aren't we already? Why try to tempt us to stay with a vague promise of "more powers" for the Scottish Parliament? Lets not get ahead of ourselves, any decision on EU or whatever will be decided by us alone, that's the difference.

Put your heart into this country or get your arse out.. If anyone's going to "bog" out then by all means do it with our blessing, ..we don't need your faint heart.

[ViperPict]

barryrs said:

ViperPict said:

Spain etc won't be voting on whether to include a new country to the EU though.

But they will have to approve Scottish signing of the treaties; they may take their time.

ViperPict said:

We will have a currency union, of that there is no doubt. Not an issue that Westminster are nice charitable folk but because the are knackered without us. Hence market 'jitters'. From the FT:

Im less convinced as this issue have been highly politicised in the rUK with all mainstream parties taking the same stance.

To assume it will happen because of a feeling of self importance smacks of more blind faith

ViperPict said:

"Currency investors would apparently be particularly concerned by the UK’s persistent current account deficit if this were no longer offset by North Sea oil revenues.”

Again im less convinced; known assets will be divided upon separation and the exact amount to remain with the rUK is to be negotiated. Will Salmond relinquish a fair share of North Sea oil & gas to meet his deadline?

Thats assuming you ignore the UN's recent involvement with Sudan (50/50)

Edited by barryrs on Friday 5th September 09:59

It is true that there will be a lot of negotiation. But it will be on the interests of both parties to do this amicably and in the quickest time frame practicable. The rUK cannot afford more market jitters and their threat of no currency union is causing that right now. They've already guaranteed the UK debt whatever the outcome of the referendum for this reason.

[barryrs]

exitwound said:

All that matters to me is the fact that I can vote for a political party here in Scotland with primarily Scottish matters to concern it.

Time some people grew a pair and embraced the fact that Scots may soon have the chance to run their own country. Yes it will be difficult, we will fall down a lot, and its not a land of milk and honey, but its worth the risk at any cost to secure a future for generations to come. I drive an old Corvette and a Chevy pickup and I predict bad things for the running of both, due to the amount of tree huggers in the SP, but I'm willing to take the risk, for the sake of a better future for all.

I'm willing to take the leap of faith just for that.. If it fails, then there's no one to blame except us. If we're better together, then why aren't we already? Why try to tempt us to stay with a vague promise of "more powers" for the Scottish Parliament? Lets not get ahead of ourselves, any decision on EU or whatever will be decided by us alone, that's the difference.

Put your heart into this country or get your arse out.. If anyone's going to "bog" out then by all means do it with our blessing, ..we don't need your faint heart.

Thats fine and i completely respect your passion but thats not the official line being touted.

I have gone from being unionist a couple of years ago, to indifferent to leaning towards yes for the benefits i believe "could" be seen in the rUK.

I have no problem with Scottish independence; i never have however i do take exception to the way the campaign has been fought by the SNP

This vague promise.

You mean the Scotland act 2012 that has received royal assent and WILL be implemented in 2016

[DCL]

Rollin said:

Why is Salmond so desperate for a currency union?

Longer term it may not be such an issue but my understanding is that he'll need it because, without a currency union, an iScotland will be using what is essentially foreign currency reserves. Our economy has been is running at a deficit for many years and those pounds need to come from somewhere (if you can't print them). We would simply suffer from bad cash-flow. Public spending would suffer accordingly - possibly for many years if not decades. Ironically, those individuals who have money, and don't depend on the state, might do quite well out of it.

[jamieduff1981]

exitwound said:

All that matters to me is the fact that I can vote for a political party here in Scotland with primarily Scottish matters to concern it.

Time some people grew a pair and embraced the fact that Scots may soon have the chance to run their own country. Yes it will be difficult, we will fall down a lot, and its not a land of milk and honey, but its worth the risk at any cost to secure a future for generations to come. I drive an old Corvette and a Chevy pickup and I predict bad things for the running of both, due to the amount of tree huggers in the SP, but I'm willing to take the risk, for the sake of a better future for all.

I'm willing to take the leap of faith just for that.. If it fails, then there's no one to blame except us. If we're better together, then why aren't we already? Why try to tempt us to stay with a vague promise of "more powers" for the Scottish Parliament? Lets not get ahead of ourselves, any decision on EU or whatever will be decided by us alone, that's the difference.

Put your heart into this country or get your arse out.. If anyone's going to "bog" out then by all means do it with our blessing, ..we don't need your faint heart.

I've never read such ill-considered nonsense in all my life. You can waffle on about "heart" all you want, but what people like you actually need is not "heart" but some ability to think analytically.

As for putting your heart in to this country or get your arse out - I'm afraid I have nothing but absolute contempt for attitudes like yours

[barryrs]

ViperPict said:

It is true that there will be a lot of negotiation. But it will be on the interests of both parties to do this amicably and in the quickest time frame practicable. The rUK cannot afford more market jitters and their threat of no currency union is causing that right now. They've already guaranteed the UK debt whatever the outcome of the referendum for this reason.

Its not the threat of no currency union thats cause of the jitters imo; its massive unknown the yes campaign has created by choosing to leave everything to the negotiation.

If we had a clear indication of the direction an independent Scotland would take it would offer the markets reassurance but all we have is words like fair, wastemonster and bedroom tax repeated over and over until people just stop asking questions.

I really think the scale of the task of splitting up the rUK is being completely ignored by the SNP and even if we stay the best of friends throughout 18 months is unrealistic.

The SNP will want to know the value of all UK assets a liabilities; are the asset values even fully understood at this moment in time? If not how long will it take to value them and will the SNP not want to independently verify those figures.

Its a monumental task

[jamieduff1981]

People are too busy convincing themselves that Yes is the right way to go based upon out-of-context quotes by Nelson Mandella and Richard Branson.

The fact is that most people simply have no idea of the scale of the task.

[Leithen]

exitwound said:

If we're better together, then why aren't we already?

You are, you just don't realise it.

Utopia doesn't exist, there are no unicorns.

What exactly is worth suffering high inflation, high interest rates, high prices, a weak currency, high taxes, high unemployment for?

Look across the world and you'll find that achieving stability, whether economic or political, is very, very hard work. It requires sacrifices and continual hard choices.

The UK is doing very well despite what politicians and commentators might tell you. It could do better, no doubt. Those who complain so bitterly about it, ought to stand for election themselves.

[Gaspode]

ViperPict said:

Both points A and B are wrong. There is definitely a movement in England to remove the UK from the EU - no question!

The EU issue has NOT been decided - if it had, Westminster would be latching onto this. It COULD be decided if Westminster directly asked the question of the EU but they refuse to - I wonder why?! In reality, the transition of an independent Scotland into the EU will likely be very simple. There is no reason they would not want Scotland in and removing us would go against fundamental principals of the EU.

The fact that you are seemingly unable to distinguish the difference between some people wanting something and everyone wanting something kind of destroys your entire argument. Yes, it's true that some people in the UK want to exit the EU. This does not mean that "the UK wants to exit the EU".

Yes, it's true that some people think that there is no problem with Scotland getting back into the EU. This does not mean "the transition of an independent Scotland into the EU will likely be very simple".

One has only to look at the conditions for joining the euro, for example. Scotland as an applicant would not be exempt from these conditions. The existing EU members are highly unlikely to simply waive the rules just because you would like them to.

[ViperPict]

barryrs said:

ViperPict said:

It is true that there will be a lot of negotiation. But it will be on the interests of both parties to do this amicably and in the quickest time frame practicable. The rUK cannot afford more market jitters and their threat of no currency union is causing that right now. They've already guaranteed the UK debt whatever the outcome of the referendum for this reason.

Its not the threat of no currency union thats cause of the jitters imo; its massive unknown the yes campaign has created by choosing to leave everything to the negotiation.

If we had a clear indication of the direction an independent Scotland would take it would offer the markets reassurance but all we have is words like fair, wastemonster and bedroom tax repeated over and over until people just stop asking questions.

I really think the scale of the task of splitting up the rUK is being completely ignored by the SNP and even if we stay the best of friends throughout 18 months is unrealistic.

The SNP will want to know the value of all UK assets a liabilities; are the asset values even fully understood at this moment in time? If not how long will it take to value them and will the SNP not want to independently verify those figures.

Its a monumental task

If Westminster confirmed in principal a currency union now, the markets would be cool with that.

It is a monumental task but it is so totally worth it and I have every confidence we will rise to the challenge!

[barryrs]

ViperPict said:

If Westminster confirmed in principal a currency union now, the markets would be cool with that.

It is a monumental task but it is so totally worth it and I have every confidence we will rise to the challenge!

The markets might but the population you are asking to guarantee your economy aren't; thats where your problem lies ultimately.

Im sure Scotland would rise to the challenge should it be a Yes vote however the refusal to acknowledge the risks publicly by the SNP is where i take exception.

[ViperPict]

Leithen said:

exitwound said:

If we're better together, then why aren't we already?

You are, you just don't realise it.

Utopia doesn't exist, there are no unicorns.

What exactly is worth suffering high inflation, high interest rates, high prices, a weak currency, high taxes, high unemployment for?

Look across the world and you'll find that achieving stability, whether economic or political, is very, very hard work. It requires sacrifices and continual hard choices.

The UK is doing very well despite what politicians and commentators might tell you. It could do better, no doubt. Those who complain so bitterly about it, ought to stand for election themselves.

NO. WE. ARE. NOT.

I'm old enough to remember Linwood, Ravenscraig and big shipbuilding and coal industries - all gone now! Despite the apparently protective union. We can do better on our own. We need to have a DEMOCRACY - we do not have that right now. We are as wealthy as rUK without oil. Our food and drink industry alone is 30% of the UKs. We have at least 25% of Europe's renewable energy resource - increasingly valuable as 'traditional' energy sources dwindle. The UK is in a FAR worse financial state than Westminster admits to. Unmanageable debt. The recent economic 'growth' (a scary term anyway) is just down to more uncontrolled lending on housing - smoke and mirrors! Westminster has an agenda of taking from the poor to give to the rich - austerity while tax breaks for the super-rich is a mechanism to do specifically that. And very dodgy privatisation (Royal Mail anyone?!). Cover ups over elite paedophile rings at the highest level. Westminster is utterly rotten and is not fit to govern my kids and grandkids. This is NOT a romantic dream - it is all about what is objectively best for Scotland. We have to put down our individual short-term economic issues on this and think for the future over the next decades and centuries. The important thing to remember is that we are not creating another tier of government in an independent Scotland or a mini-Westminster - we are creating an entirely NEW system that we, the electorate, have a huge input is shaping how we want it to be. We are not at the mercy of politician's short term views in this.