Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

Author
Discussion

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Wednesday 16th April 2014
quotequote all
KENZ said:
It's quite amazing how some people can't see passed the end of ones nose. See link below. Not that I'm from Glasgow but that is a complete disgrace.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/the-heal...

Those years in the union have done us proud all right..
Health, education, health education, care, etc are all devolved issues.

You're not seriously blaming Weigies lower life expectancy on the Union!?

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Wednesday 16th April 2014
quotequote all
simoid said:
GoneAnon said:
Do you really, truly, honestly believe that the UK is doing much better than "getting by"?

Which countries would you suggest are doing better, and are they independent or are they tied to a neighbour?

Perhaps you think we will slide into third-world conditions without the benificence of England supporting us.

What if rUK slide? Should we help them out or let them go?
We're the fastest growing of all the G7 at present I believe. Falling unemployment (lots of short term/part time but the nature of work is changing anyway).

I look about all the investment in Scotland and I can't help but think we've got it good:

Free education all the way to graduation with honours degrees, at some of the best universities in the world,
New Forth crossing,
Borders railway
New Edinburgh to Glasgow line
M74 (most expensive motorway in the world when completed)
Trams (lol)
Free personal care for the elderly
Free lots of st
Lots of help for low earning homebuyers, with government deposit schemes
Mortgage rates at their lowest levels for a while (remember the 15% after the recession of a few decades ago?)
Scotland is one of the world leaders in renewables with UK investment and Scottish management
Tax is lower and lower for the lowest earners
There's plenty of opportunity to make money in the growing economy, and now our top 1% of earners pay almost 30% of income taxes which is close to miraculous if you ask me.

And it's a nice sunny day today.

I'll stick, thank you very much.
Further to my previous post, employment levels are at a record high in Scotland.

As the politicians would say, news that we are doing well as part of the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-bus...

KENZ

1,229 posts

192 months

Wednesday 16th April 2014
quotequote all
simoid said:
KENZ said:
It's quite amazing how some people can't see passed the end of ones nose. See link below. Not that I'm from Glasgow but that is a complete disgrace.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/the-heal...

Those years in the union have done us proud all right..
Health, education, health education, care, etc are all devolved issues.

You're not seriously blaming Weigies lower life expectancy on the Union!?
Devolved since 1998. Budget/block grant is still from the UK treasury.

hidetheelephants

23,741 posts

192 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
g
KENZ said:
It's quite amazing how some people can't see passed the end of ones nose. See link below. Not that I'm from Glasgow but that is a complete disgrace.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/the-heal...

Those years in the union have done us proud all right..
Poor people(the glaswegian poor at any rate) are more depressed, eat worse food, take less exercise, drink more booze, smoke more fags and live in damper, poorer quality housing than the average citizen. There are bits of Glasgow where the life expectancy dips down toward 60, IIRC I read one study that claimed one area was below 60. There's only so much targetting heart disease, cancer and bringing in anti-smoking legislation can achieve, being poor is just bad for your health.

Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
KENZ said:
It's quite amazing how some people can't see passed the end of ones nose. See link below. Not that I'm from Glasgow but that is a complete disgrace.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/the-heal...

Those years in the union have done us proud all right..
Well 17 years of devolution - that's almost a generation haven't managed to fix it.

However. There are statistics and there are statistics.

The differences between two adjacent neighbourhoods - divided by the Glasgow, city boundary - can be stark. That headline could equally be something like Darnley and Newton Mearns, Drumchapel and Bearsden, Milton and Bishopbriggs, Castlemilk and Thorntonhall.

NHSGGC have a page of facts and figures that lists life expectancies - and near the top they compare male life expectancy Calton in Glasgow with Lenzie,outside Glasgow - 54 vs 82.

I don't think you'll see any of the politicians looking for a 'yes' vote promising anything tangible to fix this.






simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
KENZ said:
simoid said:
KENZ said:
It's quite amazing how some people can't see passed the end of ones nose. See link below. Not that I'm from Glasgow but that is a complete disgrace.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/the-heal...

Those years in the union have done us proud all right..
Health, education, health education, care, etc are all devolved issues.

You're not seriously blaming Weigies lower life expectancy on the Union!?
Devolved since 1998. Budget/block grant is still from the UK treasury.
Indeed, devolved for all of this century and some of the last.

You didn't answer my question - presumably because you realise how daft your position is. Because the money comes from the taxation of the population of the whole of the UK, it's their fault Glasweigians die earlier than folk from elsewhere in Scotland?

It's Westminster's fault, with 14 years of a Labour government that Glasgow voted for?

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
I think people should read this before making up their mind.
http://scotgov.publishingthefuture.info/publicatio...
There's also lots of good economic information here - http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/
Also, given what might happen in the Westminster election in 2015, and the promises of continuing enforced 'austerity' measures coming from all the UK main parties who might form the next UK government, the consequences of a No vote are looking dire. (Not to mention the nonsense of a referendum on continued EU membership, just to try to stop the loss of Tory voters to UKIP!!)
We're in the middle of a political campaign with the two sides trying to win hearts and minds and win a majority. The NO campaign, and the, mostly Labour, politicians who lead it, insult the intelligence of most Scots, most of the time, with the ludicrous scaremongering and with it's penchant for being economical with the truth. However in the event of a majority Yes vote then everything will change. The commitments of the Edinburgh agreement will kick in and both the UK and Scottish Governments will work in good faith to put into effect the democratic decision of the Scottish people. On currency, the most sensible option is a sterling currency union. Why would the rUK not agree if the alternative added huge costs to business in rUK. On the EU, Scotland, as part of the UK has been a member for 40 years. All of it's laws and institutions are EU compliant. An independent Scotland would not therefore be seeking membership from scratch. I could go on but won't. There is a lot more information out there if folk take the trouble to look. I would recommend however you don't rely on the BBC, STV or the newspapers. All are pretty awful and do not convey a balanced picture of the debate. As others have said it's not about the SNP, or Salmond, or the English. It's about self determination for the Scottish people and the right for Scottish people to choose the government that they want in 2016 and beyond.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
What economic information do you think is relevant to independence on that businessforscotland website?

andy_s

19,397 posts

258 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
drangular said:
I think people should read this before making up their mind.
http://scotgov.publishingthefuture.info/publicatio...
There's also lots of good economic information here - http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/
Also, given what might happen in the Westminster election in 2015, and the promises of continuing enforced 'austerity' measures coming from all the UK main parties who might form the next UK government, the consequences of a No vote are looking dire. (Not to mention the nonsense of a referendum on continued EU membership, just to try to stop the loss of Tory voters to UKIP!!)
We're in the middle of a political campaign with the two sides trying to win hearts and minds and win a majority. The NO campaign, and the, mostly Labour, politicians who lead it, insult the intelligence of most Scots, most of the time, with the ludicrous scaremongering and with it's penchant for being economical with the truth. However in the event of a majority Yes vote then everything will change. The commitments of the Edinburgh agreement will kick in and both the UK and Scottish Governments will work in good faith to put into effect the democratic decision of the Scottish people. On currency, the most sensible option is a sterling currency union. Why would the rUK not agree if the alternative added huge costs to business in rUK. On the EU, Scotland, as part of the UK has been a member for 40 years. All of it's laws and institutions are EU compliant. An independent Scotland would not therefore be seeking membership from scratch. I could go on but won't. There is a lot more information out there if folk take the trouble to look. I would recommend however you don't rely on the BBC, STV or the newspapers. All are pretty awful and do not convey a balanced picture of the debate. As others have said it's not about the SNP, or Salmond, or the English. It's about self determination for the Scottish people and the right for Scottish people to choose the government that they want in 2016 and beyond.
Hahaha, seriously?

Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
drangular said:
We're in the middle of a political campaign with the two sides trying to win hearts and minds and win a majority.
The thing is there isn't much of a campaign at all.

It's dire.





hidetheelephants

23,741 posts

192 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
Dryce said:
drangular said:
We're in the middle of a political campaign with the two sides trying to win hearts and minds and win a majority.
The thing is there isn't much of a campaign at all.

It's dire.
There is however a preponderance of leaden and witless 'Better Together'ness on the telly, radio, internet, and print media with an inadequate balance of 'Yes' witlessness; this is having an effect on the innate thrawnness of some Scots, they just don't like being told what to do, especially if it's delivered as 'for your own good'. This, if for no other, is a reason for more balance; Scots eat scotch pies for christ's sake, we don't do things for our own good.

Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
hidetheelephants said:
There is however a preponderance of leaden and witless 'Better Together'ness on the telly, radio, internet, and print media with an inadequate balance of 'Yes' witlessness;
Where? All I see is the odd scaremongering article in the press and the odd bit of umbrage or fluff from the other side.

I think I noticed a warm and fuzzy non-descript amateurish political broadcast from the SNP.

Most of what's out there is either the yes camp making noise about things like the pound and prosperity or taking umbrage at something allegedly said by somebody or other. In terms of any supposed no campaign - nada - there just isn't one - it's just the odd bit of fluff.

As for the media they've given the yes camp an extremely easy time. But then oddly enough so haved the other parties.

It's a bit like the advocates for independence are actually interested (well they would be!) and the rest are just keeping their heads down.

Maybe it will warm up in a few months time.

I feel zero enthusiasm in actually participating much. I'm disgusted with the time this is all taking since it was cooked up. I just want it all over and done with. I suspect that I'm not the only one.

OlberJ

14,101 posts

232 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
Dryce said:
As for the media they've given the yes camp an extremely easy time. But then oddly enough so haved the other parties.
hehe What are you smoking? Do you not read the articles in the Torygraph etc?


Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Thursday 17th April 2014
quotequote all
OlberJ said:
Do you not read the articles in the Torygraph etc?
Can you actually get it north of the 54th parallel?

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
simoid said:
What economic information do you think is relevant to independence on that businessforscotland website?
Eh!? It's ALL about business, economics and independence!!
I suggested it in order to bring folks attention to what real business people are saying about the potential benefits of independence and to counterbalance all the doom, gloom and negativity that pervades the MSM.
There is a lot more information and interesting viewpoints out there if one cares to look.
The main premise of the OP is that an independent Scotland will fail economically and socially with dire consequences for everyone's standard of living, jobs, financial security etc.
But why would this be? That would only be the outcome if the Scottish people, collectively, were completely incapable of making the right decisions in all the right areas. What Devolution has demonstrated is that the opposite is true. With the few powers available to them the Scottish people have ensured the way this country is organized and run, and the things we consider important, reflect our values. All of this has very positive benefits for our standard of living that others have mentioned. With independence, and with control over all of the levers, the Scottish people can complete the job and create a very successful, socially just, and comparatively wealthy nation.
Change is very scary for some. For others it is an essential part of progress towards something better. This is a great opportunity. I think we should grasp it enthusiastically and make it work!

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
andy_s said:
Hahaha, seriously?
Yes. Which part do you think is not a serious or accurate assessment?

McWigglebum4th

Original Poster:

32,414 posts

203 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
drangular said:
simoid said:
What economic information do you think is relevant to independence on that businessforscotland website?
Eh!? It's ALL about business, economics and independence!!
Do a tiny bit of digging about the businesses on business for scotland

a large proportion of them have filed no accounts or are contractors for the SNP and YES campaign

If you still think it is unbiased then try

www.ihatetheenglishtorybds.com

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
Dryce said:
The thing is there isn't much of a campaign at all.

It's dire.
I'm not sure where your getting your information from but what I see is the most lively, vibrant, inclusive, extensive and interesting political debate in at least a generation. This is being conducted not only on-line, through many websites that have tens of thousands of hits and subscribers, but also in public meetings all over the country. Any one who has any interest in this issue at all, and I believe we all should be interested in it for obvious reasons, should take a little time to find out for themselves. If you rely on being fed information by the MSM, then I think there would be a tendency to see the campaign as you have described. But this is a very false image.

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
McWigglebum4th said:
Do a tiny bit of digging about the businesses on business for scotland

a large proportion of them have filed no accounts or are contractors for the SNP and YES campaign

If you still think it is unbiased then try

www.ihatetheenglishtorybds.com
I didn't say they were unbiased.
Their sources of information, however , mostly are. ie. they take the research and statistical information that is out there and view it from a different angle. They also reveal stats. and info. that exists but is deliberately hidden or ignored by the UK Government because it doesn't support the anti-independence rhetoric.

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Friday 18th April 2014
quotequote all
McWigglebum4th said:
Do a tiny bit of digging about the businesses on business for scotland

a large proportion of them have filed no accounts or are contractors for the SNP and YES campaign

If you still think it is unbiased then try

www.ihatetheenglishtorybds.com
BTW what do you mean by "contractors for the SNP and YES campaign."? (This is a genuine question)