Who is bogging off after the YES vote?
Discussion
jamieduff1981 said:
ViperPict said:
jamieduff1981 said:
ViperPict said:
Scottish Parliament, by any reasonable person's assessment, has been highly successful and very popular.
It's a bloody laughing stock you mean...
Can you accept that by setting up our own CAA, DVLA, Treasury, DfT, DECC, HSE etc etc etc that the public sector bill SHALL be higher per head of population than it is to operate those standing functions but shared amongst 10 times as many people? If so, great - we're getting somewhere. If not, you're simple.
I'm hoping that you do accept that it will cost us a lot of money to set up on our own - and you're about to justify to me the benefit to Bob the hypothetical disabled man currently on disability allowance of me or you paying more tax just to operate our own institutions rather than share existing ones with rUK. I'd like you to explain to me how my increase in taxation to provide the same functions we already get cheap access to at greater expense nets more money in Bob's pocket.
I don't accept that anyone will be better off - except perhaps in providing more positions for civil servants which will benefit those individuals if not already employed. Everyone else just gets to pay more for the same thing, but without sharing David Cameron memes on Facebook but a Scottish First Minister's face instead.
All that is assuming best case scenario and that our economy doesn't just implode as the major employers pull out, we can't access good finance for national debt and the backside falls out of the property market meaning nobody currently mortgaged can move out, or keep up with the increased interest rates and have no money or credit rating to buy any retail or service industry stuff which supports most of the private sector in Scotland.
Recognising all of that, I can't out vote all of you Yes men. I can't solve world hunger and even giving my entire income away in tax it will make no meaningful difference to everyone else - so I can only do my best for my wife and children. Although nobody wants to admit it - I strongly suspect that's fundamentally what motivates anyone in real life who isn't still a student looking for a cause to support.
Pooh said:
Pooh said:
drangular said:
That would only be the outcome if the Scottish people, collectively, were completely incapable of making the right decisions in all the right areas. What Devolution has demonstrated is that the opposite is true.
Really!!There have been plenty if idiotic decisions such as free prescriptions for people who can afford to pay for them resulting in less money for the NHS, banning fracking and nuclear power, the disaster that is the curriculum for excellence etc etc, can you please provide us with some examples of sensible ones.
A major factor in my decision to vote no is that the Scottish Parliament is a total joke.
ViperPict said:
Means testing for prescriptions would be more expensive.
Rubbish, the system was already in place, it cost £57 million in the first year and given that charges would have increased the figure is likely to be higher now ViperPict said:
Fracking - f
king madness. Short term gain and fk the future generations. Everything that's wrong with our economics in the UK these days. Short-term thinking morons who are just in it for personal gain to their bank balance.
More rubbish, I am a geologist and used to be a Frack Supervisor, fracking has been going on in the UK both on and offshore for years, it is no more hazardous than any other oil drilling activity. king madness. Short term gain and fk the future generations. Everything that's wrong with our economics in the UK these days. Short-term thinking morons who are just in it for personal gain to their bank balance.I will gain no more from fracking than anybody else including you.(I have no involvement in fracking these days)
ViperPict said:
Scottish Parliament, by any reasonable person's assessment, has been highly successful and very popular.
Your assessment does not seem to be reasonable.Can you give me any examples of sensible policies?
With all due respect, some highly published and respected hydrogeology academics would strongly argue with you regarding the definitive safety of fracking. Your's is just one opinion as far as I'm concerned.
And the fact remains that the SG has very high approval with the electorate. That is the bottom line of it's success in a democracy.
I do not enter this issue with a predetermined and emotional position on maintaining the union just for the nostalgia of it. I see this quite objectively I think.
drangular said:
There is another way of looking at it. As per the Edinburgh Agreement each side will respect the result and work to implement the will of the Scottish people.
This is rather fanciful.In the event of separation and detailed negotiations the gloves will be off and the tone will change because here will be distinct national self interests.
Very few divorces that start out civilised stay that way once it comes down to splitting the assets in detail.
And you want to stick with a government that would happily do so out of stubborness, even if it costs their people dearly?
We can and we will do better.
They should be begging us to stay. They are doing anything but.
This is our time approaching. If rUK is lucky, they'll follow our lead. Who knows, maybe 50years down the line when things have been shaken up completely there could be a case for an equal union.
We can and we will do better.
They should be begging us to stay. They are doing anything but.
This is our time approaching. If rUK is lucky, they'll follow our lead. Who knows, maybe 50years down the line when things have been shaken up completely there could be a case for an equal union.
Dryce said:
ViperPict said:
And the fact remains that the SG has very high approval with the electorate. That is the bottom line of it's success in a democracy.
It hasn't exactly been tested on anything major. It doesn't set tax rates. And currently there's always Westminster to blame.Commentary on the article below that is much better than I could ever write:
"Graeme Archer evinces all the bitter biliousness of the British nationalist bigot. His prose drips contempt for Scotland, its people, and the noble democratic process of self-determination in which we are involved.
If Graeme Archer wants to know why a Yes vote in the independence referendum is now all but inevitable he need only look to his own sneering condescension. He need look no further than the arrogant presumption with which he petulantly demands that the people of Scotland subordinate their interests and aspirations to his own rancid prejudices.
There are many reasons why I do not want to be associated with the British state that Graeme Archer reveres so mindlessly. He offers not one single reason why I should change my mind. On the contrary, with every hateful word that oozes out of him he confirms the wisdom of my choice.
September 18 will change nothing, Mr Archer. With all your vacuous vitriol you could hardly be more foreign to me."
The contempt some of the 'establishment' have for our country only justifies for me the urgent need for independence.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-in...
McWigglebum4th said:
Seeing this thread has strayed away from who wants to leave the democratic republic of scotland to a debate about independence can we get this closed or merged with the thread running in NPE
Because there are actually as much people on this thread supporting independence as against it?Back on topic, the threats to leave if there is a yes vote are, in the main, just that I think.
The sane would at least see how the negotiations go post-yes vote.
Can some of you gents see that when arguing for independence, you keep telling us how good devolution is?
Some of us don't see the value in risking what we have at present - and when it comes down to putting your viewpoints across, you have very little in the way of fact to help yourselves.
I would've thought that the fact, ie irrefutable statement, that UK businesses will have to do far more tax administration would be enough to make you think about what else is put at risk when we leave the UK.
Think of the ginormous companies in the UK - they all account for and pay taxes on a UK basis. Do you have any idea of the complexity in splitting up these companies' divisions at present, reorganising, then making them count what they earn and spend in Scotland AND the UK instead of just the UK?
We're talking millions and millions of pounds per company, for who knows how many companies.
All so you can complain about slightly different governments for slightly different reasons, since "political sovereignty for small countries is inescapably limited" and "largely symbolic"? (Prof John Kay, 2011 IIRC)
Some of us don't see the value in risking what we have at present - and when it comes down to putting your viewpoints across, you have very little in the way of fact to help yourselves.
I would've thought that the fact, ie irrefutable statement, that UK businesses will have to do far more tax administration would be enough to make you think about what else is put at risk when we leave the UK.
Think of the ginormous companies in the UK - they all account for and pay taxes on a UK basis. Do you have any idea of the complexity in splitting up these companies' divisions at present, reorganising, then making them count what they earn and spend in Scotland AND the UK instead of just the UK?
We're talking millions and millions of pounds per company, for who knows how many companies.
All so you can complain about slightly different governments for slightly different reasons, since "political sovereignty for small countries is inescapably limited" and "largely symbolic"? (Prof John Kay, 2011 IIRC)
ViperPict said:
Because there are actually as much people on this thread supporting independence as against it?
Back on topic, the threats to leave if there is a yes vote are, in the main, just that I think.
The sane would at least see how the negotiations go post-yes vote.
No, the "sane" thing to do is to continuously evaluate the best course of action and make decisions when required.Back on topic, the threats to leave if there is a yes vote are, in the main, just that I think.
The sane would at least see how the negotiations go post-yes vote.
If you don't think the negotiations can go well, what's the point in hanging around treading water?
I have seriously considered moving to Wales or Norway in the event of a yes vote. Firstly because I have a number of medical problems and if we do vote yes I fear that I will not get the correct treatment - due purely to the massive cuts NHS Scotland will face (even though Alex Salmond pledges to increase them, but we won't be able to afford it) Secondly will the the crippling public debt which will only increase as a result of the value our own currency falling (if our currency is 20% lower than the Sterling that is effectively 20p more for every pound we have to pay back) Now of course we could just default on the debt as it wouldn't technically be ours, but this in turn would destroy our credit rating, furthermore I just feel it is incredibly underhand and deceptive to not pay our share of the debt - it was the Royal Bank of SCOTLAND who at one point was the biggest UK bank and who got into the most s@#t. Also onto the matter of credit rating, if we vote yes we will start out with the lowest credit rating and depending if we default or pay on time decides if our rating stays at the bottom or increases, it's the same reason 18 year olds pay higher interest - there is no history of them managing credit and if they pay on time the interest rate drops and their credit limit increases, if they default their credit rating drops and their credit limit drops. If we vote yes Scotland will be seen as an entirely new country with no financial history - this is the benefit of being in the UK.
Also the number of blatant lies told by the SNP is just unbelievable, yes it's politics, every party will make everything look in their favour. But the nonsense that has been published in the white paper (I have a copy) is just unreal. It states that The Queen will remain as our head of state, now The Queen hasn't even been asked this, the SNP have just assumed it. It just feels the SNP don't even know what the purpose of the yes vote is, WE WILL BE A TOTALLY SEPARATE COUNTRY, it would be like France stating their head of state is The Queen, it's just not going to happen. Also the fact that Salmond & Co. keep banging on that a currency union being denied is just a bluff, even though it's not - the remainder of the UK can't risk damage to the economy as a result of independence failing (we've all seen how well the Euro worked out) and I can't believe that the SNP pushed for a referendum without doing vital groundworks such as this FIRST.
Also the plans for a Scottish military are laughable, the area of Scotland makes up about 30% of the total UK land mass and 59% of the total UK coastline. Yet the SNP thinks all of this can be defended for just 7.8% of the current UK military funding (excluding aid) So, what happens if the Russians decide they want the North Sea? Two Russian missiles and that's our Navy gone, and how many countries are rushing to the aid of Ukraine?
Also the number of blatant lies told by the SNP is just unbelievable, yes it's politics, every party will make everything look in their favour. But the nonsense that has been published in the white paper (I have a copy) is just unreal. It states that The Queen will remain as our head of state, now The Queen hasn't even been asked this, the SNP have just assumed it. It just feels the SNP don't even know what the purpose of the yes vote is, WE WILL BE A TOTALLY SEPARATE COUNTRY, it would be like France stating their head of state is The Queen, it's just not going to happen. Also the fact that Salmond & Co. keep banging on that a currency union being denied is just a bluff, even though it's not - the remainder of the UK can't risk damage to the economy as a result of independence failing (we've all seen how well the Euro worked out) and I can't believe that the SNP pushed for a referendum without doing vital groundworks such as this FIRST.
Also the plans for a Scottish military are laughable, the area of Scotland makes up about 30% of the total UK land mass and 59% of the total UK coastline. Yet the SNP thinks all of this can be defended for just 7.8% of the current UK military funding (excluding aid) So, what happens if the Russians decide they want the North Sea? Two Russian missiles and that's our Navy gone, and how many countries are rushing to the aid of Ukraine?
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
Because there are actually as much people on this thread supporting independence as against it?
Back on topic, the threats to leave if there is a yes vote are, in the main, just that I think.
The sane would at least see how the negotiations go post-yes vote.
No, the "sane" thing to do is to continuously evaluate the best course of action and make decisions when required.Back on topic, the threats to leave if there is a yes vote are, in the main, just that I think.
The sane would at least see how the negotiations go post-yes vote.
If you don't think the negotiations can go well, what's the point in hanging around treading water?
jarvie said:
I have seriously considered moving to Wales or Norway in the event of a yes vote. Firstly because I have a number of medical problems and if we do vote yes I fear that I will not get the correct treatment - due purely to the massive cuts NHS Scotland will face (even though Alex Salmond pledges to increase them, but we won't be able to afford it) Secondly will the the crippling public debt which will only increase as a result of the value our own currency falling (if our currency is 20% lower than the Sterling that is effectively 20p more for every pound we have to pay back) Now of course we could just default on the debt as it wouldn't technically be ours, but this in turn would destroy our credit rating, furthermore I just feel it is incredibly underhand and deceptive to not pay our share of the debt - it was the Royal Bank of SCOTLAND who at one point was the biggest UK bank and who got into the most s@#t. Also onto the matter of credit rating, if we vote yes we will start out with the lowest credit rating and depending if we default or pay on time decides if our rating stays at the bottom or increases, it's the same reason 18 year olds pay higher interest - there is no history of them managing credit and if they pay on time the interest rate drops and their credit limit increases, if they default their credit rating drops and their credit limit drops. If we vote yes Scotland will be seen as an entirely new country with no financial history - this is the benefit of being in the UK.
Also the number of blatant lies told by the SNP is just unbelievable, yes it's politics, every party will make everything look in their favour. But the nonsense that has been published in the white paper (I have a copy) is just unreal. It states that The Queen will remain as our head of state, now The Queen hasn't even been asked this, the SNP have just assumed it. It just feels the SNP don't even know what the purpose of the yes vote is, WE WILL BE A TOTALLY SEPARATE COUNTRY, it would be like France stating their head of state is The Queen, it's just not going to happen. Also the fact that Salmond & Co. keep banging on that a currency union being denied is just a bluff, even though it's not - the remainder of the UK can't risk damage to the economy as a result of independence failing (we've all seen how well the Euro worked out) and I can't believe that the SNP pushed for a referendum without doing vital groundworks such as this FIRST.
Also the plans for a Scottish military are laughable, the area of Scotland makes up about 30% of the total UK land mass and 59% of the total UK coastline. Yet the SNP thinks all of this can be defended for just 7.8% of the current UK military funding (excluding aid) So, what happens if the Russians decide they want the North Sea? Two Russian missiles and that's our Navy gone, and how many countries are rushing to the aid of Ukraine?
So many misconceptions and skewed and biased assumptions in one post... it's difficult to know where to start.Also the number of blatant lies told by the SNP is just unbelievable, yes it's politics, every party will make everything look in their favour. But the nonsense that has been published in the white paper (I have a copy) is just unreal. It states that The Queen will remain as our head of state, now The Queen hasn't even been asked this, the SNP have just assumed it. It just feels the SNP don't even know what the purpose of the yes vote is, WE WILL BE A TOTALLY SEPARATE COUNTRY, it would be like France stating their head of state is The Queen, it's just not going to happen. Also the fact that Salmond & Co. keep banging on that a currency union being denied is just a bluff, even though it's not - the remainder of the UK can't risk damage to the economy as a result of independence failing (we've all seen how well the Euro worked out) and I can't believe that the SNP pushed for a referendum without doing vital groundworks such as this FIRST.
Also the plans for a Scottish military are laughable, the area of Scotland makes up about 30% of the total UK land mass and 59% of the total UK coastline. Yet the SNP thinks all of this can be defended for just 7.8% of the current UK military funding (excluding aid) So, what happens if the Russians decide they want the North Sea? Two Russian missiles and that's our Navy gone, and how many countries are rushing to the aid of Ukraine?
1. Why would the Queen not wish to be head of state? She is of Canada, Australia, NZ etc.
2. It would be up to the people of Scotland to decide who the HoS is.
3. One of the leading credit agencies has stated categorically that there is no reason why IScot couldn't have a triple A credit rating. (i can't find the quote at present but can if required)
4. Why is the currency union not going to happen when it's the best option for everyone, in the event of YES.?
5. The NHS is most at risk from the actions of the UK govt.
6. The share of the debt is a concern. However whether we are in the UK or independent the problem still has to be addressed. I'd rather it was the Scottish people deciding how to address it than the current or any prospective Conservative/Labour UK govt.
7. I could go on but won't.
drangular said:
jarvie said:
I have seriously considered moving to Wales or Norway in the event of a yes vote. Firstly because I have a number of medical problems and if we do vote yes I fear that I will not get the correct treatment - due purely to the massive cuts NHS Scotland will face (even though Alex Salmond pledges to increase them, but we won't be able to afford it) Secondly will the the crippling public debt which will only increase as a result of the value our own currency falling (if our currency is 20% lower than the Sterling that is effectively 20p more for every pound we have to pay back) Now of course we could just default on the debt as it wouldn't technically be ours, but this in turn would destroy our credit rating, furthermore I just feel it is incredibly underhand and deceptive to not pay our share of the debt - it was the Royal Bank of SCOTLAND who at one point was the biggest UK bank and who got into the most s@#t. Also onto the matter of credit rating, if we vote yes we will start out with the lowest credit rating and depending if we default or pay on time decides if our rating stays at the bottom or increases, it's the same reason 18 year olds pay higher interest - there is no history of them managing credit and if they pay on time the interest rate drops and their credit limit increases, if they default their credit rating drops and their credit limit drops. If we vote yes Scotland will be seen as an entirely new country with no financial history - this is the benefit of being in the UK.
Also the number of blatant lies told by the SNP is just unbelievable, yes it's politics, every party will make everything look in their favour. But the nonsense that has been published in the white paper (I have a copy) is just unreal. It states that The Queen will remain as our head of state, now The Queen hasn't even been asked this, the SNP have just assumed it. It just feels the SNP don't even know what the purpose of the yes vote is, WE WILL BE A TOTALLY SEPARATE COUNTRY, it would be like France stating their head of state is The Queen, it's just not going to happen. Also the fact that Salmond & Co. keep banging on that a currency union being denied is just a bluff, even though it's not - the remainder of the UK can't risk damage to the economy as a result of independence failing (we've all seen how well the Euro worked out) and I can't believe that the SNP pushed for a referendum without doing vital groundworks such as this FIRST.
Also the plans for a Scottish military are laughable, the area of Scotland makes up about 30% of the total UK land mass and 59% of the total UK coastline. Yet the SNP thinks all of this can be defended for just 7.8% of the current UK military funding (excluding aid) So, what happens if the Russians decide they want the North Sea? Two Russian missiles and that's our Navy gone, and how many countries are rushing to the aid of Ukraine?
So many misconceptions and skewed and biased assumptions in one post... it's difficult to know where to start.Also the number of blatant lies told by the SNP is just unbelievable, yes it's politics, every party will make everything look in their favour. But the nonsense that has been published in the white paper (I have a copy) is just unreal. It states that The Queen will remain as our head of state, now The Queen hasn't even been asked this, the SNP have just assumed it. It just feels the SNP don't even know what the purpose of the yes vote is, WE WILL BE A TOTALLY SEPARATE COUNTRY, it would be like France stating their head of state is The Queen, it's just not going to happen. Also the fact that Salmond & Co. keep banging on that a currency union being denied is just a bluff, even though it's not - the remainder of the UK can't risk damage to the economy as a result of independence failing (we've all seen how well the Euro worked out) and I can't believe that the SNP pushed for a referendum without doing vital groundworks such as this FIRST.
Also the plans for a Scottish military are laughable, the area of Scotland makes up about 30% of the total UK land mass and 59% of the total UK coastline. Yet the SNP thinks all of this can be defended for just 7.8% of the current UK military funding (excluding aid) So, what happens if the Russians decide they want the North Sea? Two Russian missiles and that's our Navy gone, and how many countries are rushing to the aid of Ukraine?
1. Why would the Queen not wish to be head of state? She is of Canada, Australia, NZ etc.
2. It would be up to the people of Scotland to decide who the HoS is.
3. One of the leading credit agencies has stated categorically that there is no reason why IScot couldn't have a triple A credit rating. (i can't find the quote at present but can if required)
4. Why is the currency union not going to happen when it's the best option for everyone, in the event of YES.?
5. The NHS is most at risk from the actions of the UK govt.
6. The share of the debt is a concern. However whether we are in the UK or independent the problem still has to be addressed. I'd rather it was the Scottish people deciding how to address it than the current or any prospective Conservative/Labour UK govt.
7. I could go on but won't.
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