Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

Author
Discussion

NailedOn

3,114 posts

234 months

Saturday 19th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
Self-confessed trolling...
Self confessed trout on a plastic fly.
laugh

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
And BOOM, there's the nonsense rhetoric!

Tell me, where is the unequivocal information on any of the key aspects that will dictate what an independent Scotland will be like? We have to wait until AFTER the yes vote to know any of the detail. Prior to that you are plucking information out of thin air to base, apparently, the important decision to stay or go on.
I know lots of things about what happens if we leave the UK.

One of them is that there is a border between us and a market of 58m people that wasn't there before.

Another is that it'll cost a significant amount of initial investment.

And now you're telling me I need to vote yes to find out if there are any benefits at all?

Why should I vote yes when I know there are definite downsides, and nebulous "vote yes and maybe find out" upsides?
This is just died in the wool and closed minded Unionist rhetoric though. You do not know there will be a barrier to trade - you just don't! You get this feeling from unionists that Scotland will be left isolated in terms of trade after independence. There is a freakin' market of 5.5M people here!!!

And you don't see any potential advantage of independence, just negatives? That is not being objective at all - you are an emotional unionist clearly!

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
NailedOn said:
ViperPict said:
Self-confessed trolling...
Self confessed trout on a plastic fly.
laugh
Four sea-winter salmon on a Boyd fly...

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
And BOOM, there's the nonsense rhetoric!

Tell me, where is the unequivocal information on any of the key aspects that will dictate what an independent Scotland will be like? We have to wait until AFTER the yes vote to know any of the detail. Prior to that you are plucking information out of thin air to base, apparently, the important decision to stay or go on.
I know lots of things about what happens if we leave the UK.

One of them is that there is a border between us and a market of 58m people that wasn't there before.

Another is that it'll cost a significant amount of initial investment.

And now you're telling me I need to vote yes to find out if there are any benefits at all?

Why should I vote yes when I know there are definite downsides, and nebulous "vote yes and maybe find out" upsides?
This is just died in the wool and closed minded Unionist rhetoric though. You do not know there will be a barrier to trade - you just don't! You get this feeling from unionists that Scotland will be left isolated in terms of trade after independence. There is a freakin' market of 5.5M people here!!!

And you don't see any potential advantage of independence, just negatives? That is not being objective at all - you are an emotional unionist clearly!
There will be a barrier to trade - a seceded Scotland will be outside the EU - the EU have said as much and that automatic membership will not be forthcoming

whether an independent scotland remains in the Sterling Area is NOT Scotland's decisions it is in the hands of the Westminster Government and possibly other Sterling area legislatures (WAG, NIA , Manx and CI )

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Dryce said:
Back to the usual vague - "trust us - we'll sort out all the details - it'll be OK" response that apparently solves everything for those who don't have the real answers.

Edited by Dryce on Saturday 19th April 19:34
1. Scotland will be in the EU. See previous posts on why and how. Why and how would Scotland not become an EU member?
2. 'Separation' and 'independence' do have different meanings. Why do you think the pro-union side always call it the former. Because it's more pejorative therefore more 'scary'.
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/engli...
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/engli...
3. The 'there will be no currency union' statements are all about the current campaign.
4. http://derekbateman.co.uk/2014/03/

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
This is just died in the wool and closed minded Unionist rhetoric though. You do not know there will be a barrier to trade - you just don't! You get this feeling from unionists that Scotland will be left isolated in terms of trade after independence. There is a freakin' market of 5.5M people here!!!

And you don't see any potential advantage of independence, just negatives? That is not being objective at all - you are an emotional unionist clearly!
You told me I have to wait til after the yes vote to find out detail. What certain advantages are there at present?

It is not closed minded rhetoric. It is simple fact - an extra border increases complexity of lots of things. There might be a free trade deal initially, but there's uncertainty of the EU membership of Scotland and the future UK so who knows what'll happen in a couple of years?

Also, as I've said, you're multiplying the tax and accounting administration required for companies who operate north and South of the nominal 'border' at present. Certainly. Unless you're telling me that we all just keep paying taxes to HMRC after we leave the UK?

Now - what are the certain benefits of independence?

Don't say a government we always vote for - as we have an SNP majority in parliament despite only 55% of votes being cast agains them.
Don't say we are free to run our own budgets - as the current plans for currency union mean that Westminster Tories will still control them, and any other plan requires a serious debt reduction plan, such that the markets will set our borrowing limits. Or the ECB will in the case of Euro.

So, certain benefits please, if you will. Or just continue to insult my intelligence by saying I'm a dyed in the wool unionist, which isn't true.

NailedOn

3,114 posts

234 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Very good article by Sir Tom Hunter in today's Sunday Times.
Behind the pay wall but in essence say both camps need to focus on delivering opportunity for the citizens.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
drangular said:
1. Scotland will be in the EU. See previous posts on why and how. Why and how would Scotland not become an EU member?
2. 'Separation' and 'independence' do have different meanings.
Scotland's EU membership is not certain. Find me someone who says it is and I'll show you a liar.

You're quite right, separation is what we get when we leave the UK, but independence is largely symbolic and limited due to our size.

drangular

240 posts

160 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
There will be a barrier to trade - a seceded Scotland will be outside the EU - the EU have said as much and that automatic membership will not be forthcoming

whether an independent scotland remains in the Sterling Area is NOT Scotland's decisions it is in the hands of the Westminster Government and possibly other Sterling area legislatures (WAG, NIA , Manx and CI )
1. The EU has categorically, for fact, NOT said as much!!! The EU Commission has stated that they won't take a view until asked to by the member state, ie. the UK. They haven't officially been asked because the UK Govt. REFUSES to do so. Probably because they don't want to hear the answer! The answer is likely to damage the UK/BT campaign for a No vote so that is why they won't ask the question.
No one, not even the most ardent supporter of independence, has stated that i-Scotland EU membership accession will be "automatic". It will be subject to negotiation like everything else. Scotland is currently fully compliant with EU requirements so why would accession be anything but straightforward.?
Membership of the EU means no barriers to trade.
A negotiated Common Travel Area (as currently exists with ROI) means, in effect, no borders within the British Isles, as now.


ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
mph1977 said:
ViperPict said:
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
And BOOM, there's the nonsense rhetoric!

Tell me, where is the unequivocal information on any of the key aspects that will dictate what an independent Scotland will be like? We have to wait until AFTER the yes vote to know any of the detail. Prior to that you are plucking information out of thin air to base, apparently, the important decision to stay or go on.
I know lots of things about what happens if we leave the UK.

One of them is that there is a border between us and a market of 58m people that wasn't there before.

Another is that it'll cost a significant amount of initial investment.

And now you're telling me I need to vote yes to find out if there are any benefits at all?

Why should I vote yes when I know there are definite downsides, and nebulous "vote yes and maybe find out" upsides?
This is just died in the wool and closed minded Unionist rhetoric though. You do not know there will be a barrier to trade - you just don't! You get this feeling from unionists that Scotland will be left isolated in terms of trade after independence. There is a freakin' market of 5.5M people here!!!

And you don't see any potential advantage of independence, just negatives? That is not being objective at all - you are an emotional unionist clearly!
There will be a barrier to trade - a seceded Scotland will be outside the EU - the EU have said as much and that automatic membership will not be forthcoming

whether an independent scotland remains in the Sterling Area is NOT Scotland's decisions it is in the hands of the Westminster Government and possibly other Sterling area legislatures (WAG, NIA , Manx and CI )
This is NOT true!!! Unionist rhetoric. It has NOT been said that Scotland WILL be out of the EU! This debate needs to be based on fact and that is NOT one!

And the currency union is another example of unionist propaganda - as recent revelations have confirmed.

You can't keeping banging on about these issues with the hope that if you say it enough people will accept it as fact. There is not a definitive consensus on these issues.

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
This is NOT true!!! Unionist rhetoric. It has NOT been said that Scotland WILL be out of the EU! This debate needs to be based on fact and that is NOT one!

And the currency union is another example of unionist propaganda - as recent revelations have confirmed.

You can't keeping banging on about these issues with the hope that if you say it enough people will accept it as fact. There is not a definitive consensus on these issues.
So at least you agree there's uncertainty, that's a start.

mph1977

12,467 posts

167 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
This is NOT true!!! Unionist rhetoric. It has NOT been said that Scotland WILL be out of the EU! This debate needs to be based on fact and that is NOT one!

And the currency union is another example of unionist propaganda - as recent revelations have confirmed.

You can't keeping banging on about these issues with the hope that if you say it enough people will accept it as fact. There is not a definitive consensus on these issues.
So at least you agree there's uncertainty, that's a start.
There is no assurance that Scotland will remain part ofthe EU

how can organisations which do not exist be deemed to be compliant with EU regulations

there is No DVLAS, no SDSA, no VOSAS just to keep it PH related , nevermind Revenue and customs etc.

any area where the Scottish government does not have existing organisations and competencies cannot be determined to be compliant with EU policy .

the Currency union will be i nthe hands of the RUK and ultimately Scotland will have little or no say on the terms it must accept if it wants a currency union - of course it could continue to use the Pound or opt to the Euro but without a central bank of it;s own it has no powers to set monetary policy - again another organisation which does not currently exist and therefore cannot be assessed for compliance with EU rules ...

Realistically the best an independent Scotland could hope for is to be a 'retail' customer of rUK services for a period of months to years while it;s own systems are established and assessed against EU rules and then hope that the Spanish and French do not veto their application becasue of their own concerns over regional secession campiagins within their own borders ...

Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
drangular said:
1. Scotland will be in the EU. See previous posts on why and how. Why and how would Scotland not become an EU member?
'Could' or 'might' is not the same a 'will'.

drangular said:
2. 'Separation' and 'independence' do have different meanings. Why do you think the pro-union side always call it the former. Because it's more pejorative therefore more 'scary'.
Language and semantics seem over important - it's facts that count.

drangular said:
3. The 'there will be no currency union' statements are all about the current campaign.
Actually they are definitive statements by the democratric parliament that 'owns' the currency.

drangular said:
Look at the language on this site. It's an emotive eloquent diatribe that nastily denigrates those would question independence but offers nothing but conjecture and bluster in return.

The whole question of any sort of constitutional change should be subject to better debate and comment than offered up by such places.

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
simoid said:
ViperPict said:
This is NOT true!!! Unionist rhetoric. It has NOT been said that Scotland WILL be out of the EU! This debate needs to be based on fact and that is NOT one!

And the currency union is another example of unionist propaganda - as recent revelations have confirmed.

You can't keeping banging on about these issues with the hope that if you say it enough people will accept it as fact. There is not a definitive consensus on these issues.
So at least you agree there's uncertainty, that's a start.
So why do you butter it up as certainty that these things won't happen? Usual impassioned unionist rhetoric?

simoid

19,772 posts

157 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
So why do you butter it up as certainty that these things won't happen? Usual impassioned unionist rhetoric?
What do I "butter up" as certain that isn't?

Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
So why do you butter it up as certainty that these things won't happen? Usual impassioned unionist rhetoric?
Deriding something as impassioned unionist rhetoric seems to be the standard pattern for deflecting the slightest question.

That attitude may be good enough when it comes down to party politics on a pithy manifesto issue but it's a disservice to something as important as independence and breaking up an existing nation into parts.


ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Dryce said:
ViperPict said:
So why do you butter it up as certainty that these things won't happen? Usual impassioned unionist rhetoric?
Deriding something as impassioned unionist rhetoric seems to be the standard pattern for deflecting the slightest question.

That attitude may be good enough when it comes down to party politics on a pithy manifesto issue but it's a disservice to something as important as independence and breaking up an existing nation into parts.
We'll be more objective and less emotionally motivated then...

Dryce

310 posts

131 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
ViperPict said:
We'll be more objective and less emotionally motivated then...
That's very kind and thoughtful and much appreciated.

ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all

Maybe some arch-Unionist contingency planning is indeed required:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/04/t...


ViperPict

10,087 posts

236 months

Sunday 20th April 2014
quotequote all
Dryce said:
ViperPict said:
We'll be more objective and less emotionally motivated then...
That's very kind and thoughtful and much appreciated.
Yes but as long as the unionists are also. Because they are far from objective and devoid of emotion on the issue...