Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

[simoid]

Dryce said:

Yes.

Do you foresee Scotland aspiring to have a broke state government, relatively high state taxes, no NHS, death penalty, gun ownership, violent crime rates, immigration issues, limited welfare state, and cross border smuggling?

Is Califonia *that* bad. Well no. Especially if you are well off enough to make choices as to where you live and you have your health benefits with your job.

I daresay that if they could spare a bit sunshine for us it wouldn't go amiss.

However I suspect that it's the sunshine people think of - rather than the functioning of the state in terms of social, welfare, health, and crime.

So I don't think it was a good answer. Applying Californian policies to Scotland certainly wouldn't result in the romantic vision of a 'Better Scotland'. We don't have the sunshine to make up for that.

Want to try again? Where else is better?

Perhaps the Pict's own words as to why California>Scotland would be better

[ViperPict]

Dryce said:

ViperPict said:

California.

Need I say why?

Yes.

Do you foresee Scotland aspiring to have a broke state government, relatively high state taxes, no NHS, death penalty, gun ownership, violent crime rates, immigration issues, limited welfare state, and cross border smuggling?

Is Califonia *that* bad. Well no. Especially if you are well off enough to make choices as to where you live and you have your health benefits with your job.

I daresay that if they could spare a bit sunshine for us it wouldn't go amiss.

However I suspect that it's the sunshine people think of - rather than the functioning of the state in terms of social, welfare, health, and crime.

So I don't think it was a good answer. Applying Californian policies to Scotland certainly wouldn't result in the romantic vision of a 'Better Scotland'. We don't have the sunshine to make up for that.

Want to try again? Where else is better?

I never said Scotland should aspire to it at all. Just that there are countries much better to live in than the current UK but that an independent Scotland could change that.

Have you lived in California?

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

I never said Scotland should aspire to it at all. Just that there are countries much better to live in than the current UK but that an independent Scotland could change that.

Have you lived in California?

Aha, subject change.

Tell us what can change in Scotland to make it better, closer to California?

[ViperPict]

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

I never said Scotland should aspire to it at all. Just that there are countries much better to live in than the current UK but that an independent Scotland could change that.

Have you lived in California?

Aha, subject change.

Tell us what can change in Scotland to make it better, closer to California?

No, no change of subject. Where did I say that I'd propose California as a model for an independent Scotland?

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

No, no change of subject. Where did I say that I'd propose California as a model for an independent Scotland?

What could change in Scotland to make life better?

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

Scotland, I believe, could be a much better place to live. Comparable with other better places I've lived.

You said the "better place" you've lived in was California. You said Scotland could be comparable with California.

How?

What would change?

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

Where did I say comparable?

Right after the bit before you said "comparable"


ETA daft post deletion there, Pict?

[ViperPict]

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

Where did I say comparable?

Right after the bit before you said "comparable"


ETA daft post deletion there, Pict?

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

Ok.

To where can Scotland be comparable?

[ViperPict]

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

Ok.

To where can Scotland be comparable?

By what metric would you like me to define my perception of improvement over just being OK? Scotland is not bad right now, a better place than the depressingly mediocre UK. But still with plenty of room for improvement.

The most refreshing thing about living in other countries that I noticed is the greater acceptance of others and less negativity/ paranoia towards your fellow man. I think the increased 'ownership' of our country and the release of any persecution complex that some may hold will generally make us a happier more content place, even without any economic gain.

[simoid]

Persecution complex. Hmmm.

So we leave the UK, under the UK's terms, to be controlled fiscally by the UK, with our new largely symbolic sovereignty, and the persecution complex disappears? Can't see it.

If anyone in Scotland is daft enough to have a persecution complex at present in Scotland, I don't think inescapably limited independence is going to help.

Also, if we leave the UK, there's going to be a significant minority whose views have been outvoted, are they going to be happy? Probably not.

Edited by simoid on Wednesday 23 April 17:33

[Dryce]

ViperPict said:

I never said Scotland should aspire to it at all. Just that there are countries much better to live in than the current UK but that an independent Scotland could change that.

You still haven't answered the question - which is the interesting part - why do you think it's better?

Put it another way - in what practical way do you want Scotland to be like California? I'm guessing most Scots don't want guns and the NRA, they don't want US politics, they don't want to have a US healthcare system if they're poor, they prefer European approach to welfare, they don't want to pay university/college fees.

[jamieduff1981]

ViperPict said:

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

Ok.

To where can Scotland be comparable?

By what metric would you like me to define my perception of improvement over just being OK? Scotland is not bad right now, a better place than the depressingly mediocre UK. But still with plenty of room for improvement.

The most refreshing thing about living in other countries that I noticed is the greater acceptance of others and less negativity/ paranoia towards your fellow man. I think the increased 'ownership' of our country and the release of any persecution complex that some may hold will generally make us a happier more content place, even without any economic gain.

There is something wrong with your perception. Get a list of all the countries in the world. Divide the list in to places you think you'd rather raise children in than the entire UK, and places you'd rather not raise children in compared to the UK.

Unless you're severely lacking in world knowledge the second list will be around 8-9 times longer than the first list.

Spelling this out for you, Scotland has a few nice perks over England and Wales but together we're part of one of the world's top 10 economies which means stability. The UK by anyones' measure is within the top 20% (being extremely conservative) of places in the world you could live.

To say it's depressingly mediocre suggests that you frankly don't know the meaning of poverty and hardship.

[OlberJ]

The Nos seem to be pushing for instant, gleaming and glaring gains or you're not interested, correct?

So on the flipside, what instant gains do you get from the union?

Are you that happy with how things are run? Do you think you could ever change that?

What is your biggest fear of independence?

[ViperPict]

jamieduff1981 said:

ViperPict said:

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

Ok.

To where can Scotland be comparable?

By what metric would you like me to define my perception of improvement over just being OK? Scotland is not bad right now, a better place than the depressingly mediocre UK. But still with plenty of room for improvement.

The most refreshing thing about living in other countries that I noticed is the greater acceptance of others and less negativity/ paranoia towards your fellow man. I think the increased 'ownership' of our country and the release of any persecution complex that some may hold will generally make us a happier more content place, even without any economic gain.

There is something wrong with your perception. Get a list of all the countries in the world. Divide the list in to places you think you'd rather raise children in than the entire UK, and places you'd rather not raise children in compared to the UK.

Unless you're severely lacking in world knowledge the second list will be around 8-9 times longer than the first list.

Spelling this out for you, Scotland has a few nice perks over England and Wales but together we're part of one of the world's top 10 economies which means stability. The UK by anyones' measure is within the top 20% (being extremely conservative) of places in the world you could live.

To say it's depressingly mediocre suggests that you frankly don't know the meaning of poverty and hardship.

Poverty and hardship equate to depressing mediocrity in your book?!

I already said the UK is OK (as Project Fear do). It's not the worst place to live but could be much better. Aim high and don't accept mediocrity.

[jamieduff1981]

Speaking for myself,

I can play the long game. The trouble is I do not believe in a Scottish economy and I do not believe Scotland will flourish on its own. It's not about instant gains. It's about the fundamental distrust of the long term economic case put forward. Every aspect that is picked at unravels. It is reasonable to extrapolate that the whole vision is bks.

We don't 'gain' anything from staying the the union. We retain economic stability and a union that works well enough to keep us at the top end of the world's league tables.

Quality of life and health in the UK are excellent compared to the rest of the world. Could it be improved upon? Of course. The thing is though that to improve upon something that is very good already takes a superb economy and particular political talent. I believe we lack both.

My biggest fear is throwing away the economic buffer of rUK and degraded relations with them in terms of trade. I do not expect instant improvement, but I do expect continuous decline.

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

Poverty and hardship equate to depressing mediocrity in your book?!

I already said the UK is OK (as Project Fear do). It's not the worst place to live but could be much better. Aim high and don't accept mediocrity.

Isn't there poverty and hardship in California?

You really think the Better Together line is "the UK is mediocre so stick with that?"

Come on, 'Pict, wise up.

[Dryce]

OlberJ said:

The Nos seem to be pushing for instant, gleaming and glaring gains or you're not interested, correct?

Actually we're not even at that point. We haven't had any suggestions of *anything* tangible whether it be minor, major, long term, or short term.

I'm beginning to feel it's all about a romantic but intangible view that there is a better far off place but nobody really knows what it is or why it's better. Sometimes this is interspersed with some negative reasons such as not liking Westminster or some named politicians.

OlberJ said:

So on the flipside, what instant gains do you get from the union?

Are you that happy with how things are run? Do you think you could ever change that?

What is your biggest fear of independence?

Isn't this a bit late in the day - it's like you got the end of the evening and the household won't buy your double glazing or switch energy suppliers or go with whatever it is you've been trying to sell for the last 3 hours - so you start turning it around to get *them* to do your pitch for you!

Is that really what it's come down to?

[McWigglebum4th]

Seeing the YES drum bangers have pulled this away from those that don't want to live in their perfect scotland to how everyone is bullying scotland and how they hate the tory part and west minister and the tory party and maggie and the tory party and did i mention the tory party?

ViperPict said:

Poverty and hardship equate to depressing mediocrity in your book?!
.

Well sell your car and give the money to charity

oh you don't care that much about your fellow scots

As to be honest


Giving your car away will probably be cheaper then your vision of some socialist fking utopia.

ViperPict said:

I already said the UK is OK (as Project Fear do). It's not the worst place to live but could be much better. Aim high and don't accept mediocrity.

So what are we going to do to stop poverty in scotland?

Increase state benefits by a large amount

We already run a deficit where is the cash going to come from?

[simoid]

OlberJ said:

The Nos seem to be pushing for instant, gleaming and glaring gains or you're not interested, correct?

So on the flipside, what instant gains do you get from the union?

Are you that happy with how things are run? Do you think you could ever change that?

What is your biggest fear of independence?

Well, the yes campaign are proposing instant, gleaming and glaring gains if we vote yes. I think that most people would consider some short term pain for likely long term gain. However, for me, it looks like short-medium pain for long term "don't know".

Instant gains from a union that has been around for centuries? I don't understand what brought about that question.

I'm happy that we have a Scottish parliament for Scottish stuff, and that we club together with the UK on other stuff.

My biggest fear for independence is that we vote to leave the UK, businesses and consumers lose confidence, the economy struggles, tax receipts struggle, government spending increases (over and above the significant costs of independence) and then you can fill in the blanks.