Who is bogging off after the YES vote?

[jamieduff1981]

ViperPict said:

jamieduff1981 said:

ViperPict said:

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

Ok.

To where can Scotland be comparable?

By what metric would you like me to define my perception of improvement over just being OK? Scotland is not bad right now, a better place than the depressingly mediocre UK. But still with plenty of room for improvement.

The most refreshing thing about living in other countries that I noticed is the greater acceptance of others and less negativity/ paranoia towards your fellow man. I think the increased 'ownership' of our country and the release of any persecution complex that some may hold will generally make us a happier more content place, even without any economic gain.

There is something wrong with your perception. Get a list of all the countries in the world. Divide the list in to places you think you'd rather raise children in than the entire UK, and places you'd rather not raise children in compared to the UK.

Unless you're severely lacking in world knowledge the second list will be around 8-9 times longer than the first list.

Spelling this out for you, Scotland has a few nice perks over England and Wales but together we're part of one of the world's top 10 economies which means stability. The UK by anyones' measure is within the top 20% (being extremely conservative) of places in the world you could live.

To say it's depressingly mediocre suggests that you frankly don't know the meaning of poverty and hardship.

Poverty and hardship equate to depressing mediocrity in your book?!

I already said the UK is OK (as Project Fear do). It's not the worst place to live but could be much better. Aim high and don't accept mediocrity.

See this is the problem with your perspective. In every measurable way and by clever people all over the world, the whole UK would be ranked 9/10 in relation to the rest of the world.

Somalia will be 1/10.

Greece is mediocre. The economy is on its knees, lots of unemployment but you won't get your throat slashed in the street.

The "medi" part of mediocre puts it in the middle. You seem to think, unless you just don't understand those words you wrote, that the UK sits around 4/10. You see this massive potential room for improvement and you don't seem concerned about the potential downside.

I agree it's not the worst place to live. Not by a long shot. The vast majority of the world is a much, much, much worse place to live. In absolute terms the room for improvement is tiny. You don't appreciate how good you have it here.

If you're holding a King and want an Ace, are you going to stick or twist? The odds are stacked heavily against improving on something that's already extremely good.

If Scotland could do "much" better, then in absolute terms it could also do much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much (that's 8 - but looking at the UK economy world rankings it's probably a 9 really) worse. That is the risk, and it's something the Yes proponents do not wish to discuss and every time a knew risk to the masterplan which could result in a net negative outcome, it gets branded as boring, bullying, acceptance of mediocrity, lack of patriotism and now a desire for instant results.

[A.J.M]

OlberJ said:

The Nos seem to be pushing for instant, gleaming and glaring gains or you're not interested, correct?

So on the flipside, what instant gains do you get from the union?

Are you that happy with how things are run? Do you think you could ever change that?

What is your biggest fear of independence?

And the Yesser's haven't?

See my own post about the shipbuilding and the EU, i was called to state the laws or apologise for spreading unionist bullst.... Funny how when i DID put up BOTH the EU law and how the UK will act upon that law. Things went quiet...

I see us still being in the 7th largest economy in the world, i see us knowing what currency we have in our wallets.

Scotland gets more tax powers, it already HAS the legal ability to tax higher by 3p than the UK gov, but strangely has never bothered to use it. But moans that being indy will let them adjust taxes...
Scotland will be able to keep the current shipbuilding ability, plus to build the new T26 fleet, the clyde yards are getting a proper overhaul with lots of new buildings etc to suit the building of these ships.
Indy won't get the contracts, so won't get the proper overhaul.

As for the debt, the level of borrowing is slowing, you can't slam on the brakes on such an overspend, it would send the economy up it's own arse. You have to ease off slowly, which is happening.
If, IF, we accept as a country as a whole that levels of borrowing cannot continue and we have to live within our means, then the debt will slowly be paid off.

My biggest fear is a messy divorce, the Uk WILL look after itself first, Scotland could well get shafted by taking on it's fair share of the debt, have no ship building, have to cover the vast cost of the renewables subsidies on it's own, so energy prices will have to go up, the banks may have to move headquarters south with further job losses, no central bank to stabalise the economy in the event of another recession.
We will leave one of the strongest recovering Western countries and throw ourselves into the great unknown, totally at the mercy of market forces and consumers whom we have been extremely rude to.

I don't want to see my country be ruled by people who's great idea is borrow and spend, Labour tried that and look at the mess it's left.

I don't care for football, however, the family team is Ranger's. No idea what relevence that is though.

[ViperPict]

jamieduff1981 said:

ViperPict said:

jamieduff1981 said:

ViperPict said:

simoid said:

ViperPict said:

No, I said it could be comparable to other places I lived, not specifically California. I've lived in other places too.

Ok.

To where can Scotland be comparable?

By what metric would you like me to define my perception of improvement over just being OK? Scotland is not bad right now, a better place than the depressingly mediocre UK. But still with plenty of room for improvement.

The most refreshing thing about living in other countries that I noticed is the greater acceptance of others and less negativity/ paranoia towards your fellow man. I think the increased 'ownership' of our country and the release of any persecution complex that some may hold will generally make us a happier more content place, even without any economic gain.

There is something wrong with your perception. Get a list of all the countries in the world. Divide the list in to places you think you'd rather raise children in than the entire UK, and places you'd rather not raise children in compared to the UK.

Unless you're severely lacking in world knowledge the second list will be around 8-9 times longer than the first list.

Spelling this out for you, Scotland has a few nice perks over England and Wales but together we're part of one of the world's top 10 economies which means stability. The UK by anyones' measure is within the top 20% (being extremely conservative) of places in the world you could live.

To say it's depressingly mediocre suggests that you frankly don't know the meaning of poverty and hardship.

Poverty and hardship equate to depressing mediocrity in your book?!

I already said the UK is OK (as Project Fear do). It's not the worst place to live but could be much better. Aim high and don't accept mediocrity.

See this is the problem with your perspective. In every measurable way and by clever people all over the world, the whole UK would be ranked 9/10 in relation to the rest of the world.

Somalia will be 1/10.

Greece is mediocre. The economy is on its knees, lots of unemployment but you won't get your throat slashed in the street.

The "medi" part of mediocre puts it in the middle. You seem to think, unless you just don't understand those words you wrote, that the UK sits around 4/10. You see this massive potential room for improvement and you don't seem concerned about the potential downside.

I agree it's not the worst place to live. Not by a long shot. The vast majority of the world is a much, much, much worse place to live. In absolute terms the room for improvement is tiny. You don't appreciate how good you have it here.

If you're holding a King and want an Ace, are you going to stick or twist? The odds are stacked heavily against improving on something that's already extremely good.

If Scotland could do "much" better, then in absolute terms it could also do much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much (that's 8 - but looking at the UK economy world rankings it's probably a 9 really) worse. That is the risk, and it's something the Yes proponents do not wish to discuss and every time a knew risk to the masterplan which could result in a net negative outcome, it gets branded as boring, bullying, acceptance of mediocrity, lack of patriotism and now a desire for instant results.

We're (UK) holding maybe an 8. I think Scotland could be a face card.

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

We're (UK) holding maybe an 8. I think Scotland could be a face card.

Where have you lived that's a face card?

[jamieduff1981]

Long odds my friend. Long odds. We'll ps off all our friends and expect a lot of favours and hope they all see our point of view.

Long odds indeed.

[OlberJ]

So to summise, you're all happy with how things are run currently?

If you're not in future, what can you do about it?

[simoid]

OlberJ said:

So to summise, you're all happy with how things are run currently?

If you're not in future, what can you do about it?

Complain on the internet, obviously

Or get involved in the democratic process. Which will be a bit difficult if our budgets are run by a foreign country...

[jamieduff1981]

On balance I am. I can reel off a list of things that could be better. None would be better without England and Wales to isolate our economy from seasons and oil price.

Within Scotland, devolved powers already work well.

The overall UK economy is a great thing to be part of.

Wishing to remain part of that is not the same as being perfectly content with all aspects of the UK at present. I just don't think we'll solve anything on our own but we'll definately create a catalogue of new problems.

[OlberJ]

I just can't see why you are all so set sure on what is going to happen in 6 months, 18 months and beyond. Like I said, lottery numbers please!

Personally I've got more faith in something I can have a say in than something I have no say in.

I don't think we're a nation of idiots, different to the rest of the world, unable to run our own affairs.

If that's how you feel, why not move south?

I lived in Durham and just outside it for 2 years. I know this place has way much more potential and I've lived in some stty parts of central Scotland.


I'll be staying and I'll be doing my damndest to make it a better place everyday which will make my life better. I don't see that work producing the same results when we're still "living with parents" as a nation.

[simoid]

OlberJ said:

I just can't see why you are all so set sure on what is going to happen in 6 months, 18 months and beyond. Like I said, lottery numbers please!

Personally I've got more faith in something I can have a say in than something I have no say in.

I don't think we're a nation of idiots, different to the rest of the world, unable to run our own affairs.

If that's how you feel, why not move south?

I lived in Durham and just outside it for 2 years. I know this place has way much more potential and I've lived in some stty parts of central Scotland.


I'll be staying and I'll be doing my damndest to make it a better place everyday which will make my life better. I don't see that work producing the same results when we're still "living with parents" as a nation.

Personally I'm weighing up what I read, what the politicians say, what my years reading economics tell me, etc. It's not random chance like a lottery.

We have a say at present. We live in a democracy, your local council, the Scottish Government, the UK, the EU, whatever else. Why do you say we have "no say"?

Nobody said we're a nation of idiots, nobody said we're different to the rest of the world, nobody said we're unable to run our affairs. Independence is about what playing field we're on, not how we play the game.

We don't feel that way.

I don't see what the state of Durham has to do with anything.

I don't think you're fairly appraising the situation or the arguments against voting yes, here.

[jamieduff1981]

You have the right to vote already.

Sticking with economics, the UK economy is recovering well. You're advocating that we spend a lot of money short term to gain uncertainty thereafter.

Things will go downhill economically in the short term, but I agree nobody can be certain of anything thereafter. Where we differ is that I see much more room to get worse than I do to get better.

[mph1977]

With respect to Naval Shipbuilding in Scotland - i think people are missing the point that the RN will have no more need or want to use Scottish Yards than any of the other Yards in the EU capable of building Naval vessels ...

[ViperPict]

mph1977 said:

With respect to Naval Shipbuilding in Scotland - i think people are missing the point that the RN will have no more need or want to use Scottish Yards than any of the other Yards in the EU capable of building Naval vessels ...

Or any less need...

[simoid]

ViperPict said:

Or any less need...

Easy few votes in Portsmouth if they shift a few thousand jobs from the Clyde though.

[Siscar]

ViperPict said:

mph1977 said:

With respect to Naval Shipbuilding in Scotland - i think people are missing the point that the RN will have no more need or want to use Scottish Yards than any of the other Yards in the EU capable of building Naval vessels ...

Or any less need...

rUK could not favour building ships in Scotland over building them in other countries. EU law.

[ViperPict]

Siscar said:

ViperPict said:

mph1977 said:

With respect to Naval Shipbuilding in Scotland - i think people are missing the point that the RN will have no more need or want to use Scottish Yards than any of the other Yards in the EU capable of building Naval vessels ...

Or any less need...

rUK could not favour building ships in Scotland over building them in other countries. EU law.

But not 'unfavour' building ships in Scotland either...

[simoid]

Siscar said:

rUK could not favour building ships in Scotland over building them in other countries. EU law.

I'm struggling to see why they'd want to

[OlberJ]

To keep us sweet post independence?

We could be a very handy ally seeing as we're right next door.

[simoid]

OlberJ said:

To keep us sweet post independence?

We could be a very handy ally seeing as we're right next door.

Ah, like randomly taking a bottle of wine to the neighbours? Taxpayers love that. Especially unemployed shipbuilders in rUK port cities, I'm sure.

[OlberJ]

Yeah but it's Westminster we're talking about, what would they care?