Who is bogging off after the YES vote?
Discussion
It is bizarre that some actually think the RN would still build ships on the Clyde post indie.
The logic in the post above seems to be the "rUK will be nice to Scotland".
Aside from the EU laws, clearly and correctly explained above (but ignored as usual), is it not obvious why the rUK will obviously just move the work to Portsmouth? Lots of reasons to do this, no reasons really not to.
PS I've lived in Scotland, England, including Edinburgh and London, as well as abroad in several countries for a total of nearly 9 years outside the UK. And I've stayed a month in California.
The UK is a brilliant country in many ways, so are many other countries around the world. Actually having lived so long abroad makes me appreciate the UK more, whilst simultaneously lamenting its rather dismal weather. Scotland is a nice place to live, but frankly the difference between England and Scotland - when considered in global standard of living terms on many levels - is in my experience negligible. The chances of a Yes vote bringing benefits to Scottish standards of living is nil as far as I'm concerned, whereas the risks and downsides of indie are overwhelming. The economies of scale issues alone, coupled with free trade and free movement in the UK are worth an enormous amount to both countries - but more so Scotland. Take these for granted (as it seems many do) at your peril.
The logic in the post above seems to be the "rUK will be nice to Scotland".
Aside from the EU laws, clearly and correctly explained above (but ignored as usual), is it not obvious why the rUK will obviously just move the work to Portsmouth? Lots of reasons to do this, no reasons really not to.
PS I've lived in Scotland, England, including Edinburgh and London, as well as abroad in several countries for a total of nearly 9 years outside the UK. And I've stayed a month in California.
The UK is a brilliant country in many ways, so are many other countries around the world. Actually having lived so long abroad makes me appreciate the UK more, whilst simultaneously lamenting its rather dismal weather. Scotland is a nice place to live, but frankly the difference between England and Scotland - when considered in global standard of living terms on many levels - is in my experience negligible. The chances of a Yes vote bringing benefits to Scottish standards of living is nil as far as I'm concerned, whereas the risks and downsides of indie are overwhelming. The economies of scale issues alone, coupled with free trade and free movement in the UK are worth an enormous amount to both countries - but more so Scotland. Take these for granted (as it seems many do) at your peril.
Edited by ///ajd on Wednesday 23 April 23:51
The ship building thing is over.
The yessers claim of guaranteed contracts in an Indy Scotland are under Article 346, illegal.
Get it? Read the links I put up. There is NO comeback. It's illegal and the reasons are clear.
A yes vote signs the p45 for most of the workforce there.
So we can draw a line under this. For jobs and continued investment, we are better together.
The yessers claim of guaranteed contracts in an Indy Scotland are under Article 346, illegal.
Get it? Read the links I put up. There is NO comeback. It's illegal and the reasons are clear.
A yes vote signs the p45 for most of the workforce there.
So we can draw a line under this. For jobs and continued investment, we are better together.
ViperPict said:
But not 'unfavour' building ships in Scotland either...
You think we can make them cheaper then Poland?We probably could if we drop the minimum wage and remove unemployment benefits.
Then the shipyards can pay workers less then a polish shipyard worker.
It might happen in my vision of an independent Scotland where all state benefits are stopped and workhouses are opened.
Are you happy with my vision for Scotland?
BAe aren't closing the facilities in Portsmouth until after the referendum specifically so that if the referendum vote is yes they will close the facilities on the Clyde and build in Portsmouth instead. It's no secret.
Of course it's probably dismissed as scaremongering, being anti Scottish and all sorts of other nonsense, but it's fact.
Of course it's probably dismissed as scaremongering, being anti Scottish and all sorts of other nonsense, but it's fact.
OlberJ said:
I'll be staying and I'll be doing my damndest to make it a better place everyday which will make my life better. I don't see that work producing the same results when we're still "living with parents" as a nation.
Sadly while you might have a sensible head on the majority of the YES voters want to move out of the parents house and immidately buy a brand new audi on financeSo i will say due to the bizarre hatred of education that has emerged in the poorer areas of the UK that the voters in those areas are too poorly educated and thick to realise the outcome of their choices.
Look at the screams throughout the UK to increase spending
You want to live in a spend+borrow spend+borrow spend+borrow spend+borrow nation then vote YES
fluffnik said:
OlberJ said:
I don't think we're a nation of idiots, different to the rest of the world, unable to run our own affairs.
This is it. Unless we are uniquely incapable, and we're not, there is NO excuse for not running our own affairs.
We run the majority of our own affairs at present, and as a small country there is little opportunity to take a vastly different course to our massive neighbours anyway.
Any chance of the statistics to show why London is bleeding Scotland dry? Or is that another phantom claim like 'an independent Scotland will have a balance of trade surplus'?
I await your non answer eagerly.
I don't like the 'parents' house' analogy because it suggests that the natural progression for Scotland is to leave the UK, and we are infantile.
Although I suppose that's obviously how the Nats feel, since they wan a restrictive currency union with the country we've just voted to leave, they don't want us to be responsible for ourselves.
I dinnae get it.
Although I suppose that's obviously how the Nats feel, since they wan a restrictive currency union with the country we've just voted to leave, they don't want us to be responsible for ourselves.
I dinnae get it.
Humper said:
Are you naive enough to think that there will be ship building in Scotland after a NO vote either? Once we lose the opportunity for independence do you honestly think that there's a need for the carrot to be dangled.
Well if that's the case, i better inform my friend who works at the yard, has done for many years and is at a respectable level in the yard, that his bosses are doing a Salmond ( lying ) and infact, instead of getting the new contracts, the nice new buildings and cranes etc to build them, along with continued jobs and the huge investment of the site.Are in fact, going to lose their jobs, because a person who likes to tell people to f
k off, said so.I'm sure he will be most pleased by this news.
simoid said:
I don't like the 'parents' house' analogy because it suggests that the natural progression for Scotland is to leave the UK, and we are infantile.
Although I suppose that's obviously how the Nats feel, since they wan a restrictive currency union with the country we've just voted to leave, they don't want us to be responsible for ourselves.
I dinnae get it.
The point is, we should not be, but wrongly are, viewed as "living with parents". Where we should actually be viewed as "living with partner".Although I suppose that's obviously how the Nats feel, since they wan a restrictive currency union with the country we've just voted to leave, they don't want us to be responsible for ourselves.
I dinnae get it.
We are not owned by the UK, we are an equal part of it. Or at least should be.
Without independence, this will never change. It's not in Westminster's interests to have an equal. They just want to continue "ownership".
I'm sure you've sang rule brittania before Simoid, I understand you may feel you are already an important part of that set up but to them, you're really not valued other than as a revenue stream to keep London in the money.
If you like being a dependant, fair enough, vote that way but don't tell us that we are wrong to want to be a nation again
OlberJ said:
The point is, we should not be, but wrongly are, viewed as "living with parents". Where we should actually be viewed as "living with partner".
We are not owned by the UK, we are an equal part of it. Or at least should be.
Without independence, this will never change. It's not in Westminster's interests to have an equal. They just want to continue "ownership".
I'm sure you've sang rule brittania before Simoid, I understand you may feel you are already an important part of that set up but to them, you're really not valued other than as a revenue stream to keep London in the money.
If you like being a dependant, fair enough, vote that way but don't tell us that we are wrong to want to be a nation again
We used to be equal partners, with Westminster ruling all equally. Now we have devolution, our own parliament looking after NHS, schools, police, transport, etc. I think we're more than equal TBH.We are not owned by the UK, we are an equal part of it. Or at least should be.
Without independence, this will never change. It's not in Westminster's interests to have an equal. They just want to continue "ownership".
I'm sure you've sang rule brittania before Simoid, I understand you may feel you are already an important part of that set up but to them, you're really not valued other than as a revenue stream to keep London in the money.
If you like being a dependant, fair enough, vote that way but don't tell us that we are wrong to want to be a nation again
Fair enough, many think we're a junior partner under Westminster (I'd say that's our parliament too) but that brings me to one of my problems with the future, and I ask you specifically: do you want a currency union with the UK after we leave?
OlberJ said:
The point is, we should not be, but wrongly are, viewed as "living with parents". Where we should actually be viewed as "living with partner".
We are not owned by the UK, we are an equal part of it. Or at least should be.
Without independence, this will never change. It's not in Westminster's interests to have an equal. They just want to continue "ownership".
I'm sure you've sang rule brittania before Simoid, I understand you may feel you are already an important part of that set up but to them, you're really not valued other than as a revenue stream to keep London in the money.
If you like being a dependant, fair enough, vote that way but don't tell us that we are wrong to want to be a nation again
As an Englishman im going to say the above is complete codswallop in my view.We are not owned by the UK, we are an equal part of it. Or at least should be.
Without independence, this will never change. It's not in Westminster's interests to have an equal. They just want to continue "ownership".
I'm sure you've sang rule brittania before Simoid, I understand you may feel you are already an important part of that set up but to them, you're really not valued other than as a revenue stream to keep London in the money.
If you like being a dependant, fair enough, vote that way but don't tell us that we are wrong to want to be a nation again
I have never heard anyone infer that Scotland is anything other than an equal partner within the UK and the very fact that so much of the population of the rUK supported the Union at the start of this process suggests im right.
The comments above are in fact the very driver for Yes support in the rUK.
I find the whole premise that (mainly) England do not see the Scots as equals quite bizarre.
simoid said:
We used to be equal partners, with Westminster ruling all equally.
That doesn't make any sense at all to me but ok, I can see why you think what you think.A currency union to begin with until we have the the "issues" of EU membership, credit rating etc sorted (as in, not scare stories of what might happen, actual, real outcomes) and then work whichever plan works best for Scotland. Flexibility is key.
I can see Scotland surpassing rUK in a few years time. At which point, the currency union will be something Westminster are hoping will continue.
I have faith in Scotland as a country on it's own 2 feet. Opportunity knocks.
fluffnik said:
jamieduff1981 said:
Sticking with economics, the UK economy is recovering well.
There's another property bubble in London...A Scottish housing bubble fueling UNFAIRNESS in education; who'd have thought!
barryrs said:
the very fact that so much of the population of the rUK supported the Union at the start of this process suggests im right.
In 1707?There are a lot of rUKers who want to see the back of Scotland. There are a lot who want to hang on to us because they "own" us.
The love-bombing hardly set the heather alight did it?
OlberJ said:
Again, out of interest, is there anything that says BAE etc will keep building ships on the Clyde in the event of a no vote?
BAe say that, to the extent that they have the orders. Aside from anything else after Autumn this year they won't have the facilities elsewhere assuming the closure at Portsmouth goes ahead.OlberJ said:
That doesn't make any sense at all to me but ok, I can see why you think what you think.
A currency union to begin with until we have the the "issues" of EU membership, credit rating etc sorted (as in, not scare stories of what might happen, actual, real outcomes) and then work whichever plan works best for Scotland. Flexibility is key.
I can see Scotland surpassing rUK in a few years time. At which point, the currency union will be something Westminster are hoping will continue.
I have faith in Scotland as a country on it's own 2 feet. Opportunity knocks.
Currency unions are doomed to failure unless they are committed to long term by both parties. "Mind if we have a currency union for a wee while?" Doesn't sit well with people who want to invest in your country. If you're not going to stick to a currency union, you're as well not having one at all.A currency union to begin with until we have the the "issues" of EU membership, credit rating etc sorted (as in, not scare stories of what might happen, actual, real outcomes) and then work whichever plan works best for Scotland. Flexibility is key.
I can see Scotland surpassing rUK in a few years time. At which point, the currency union will be something Westminster are hoping will continue.
I have faith in Scotland as a country on it's own 2 feet. Opportunity knocks.
You say flexibility, I say uncertainty. You say flexibility, I see borrowing costs increasing.
I have total faith in Scotland to stand on our own two feet, but it would very much prefer it was on solid concrete instead of the shifting mud and sands that would be the foundations of an independent Scotland.
Have you noticed that the SNP crave the things we have just now, for an independent Scotland? The backing of the UK Central bank, a common energy market, EU membership on our own terms, NATO membership...?
Edited by simoid on Thursday 24th April 10:51
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