Who is bogging off after the YES vote?
Discussion
gwm said:
Oil - a lot has been promised on the back of revenue this will generate for Scotland. However, everyone is in agreement that this is a diminishing resource and extremely volatile price wise. The revenue gained by an iScotland would also have to be offset against the massive decommissioning costs (est 20 billion) coming in the not too distant future. The extract used here http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-pol... shows that Scotland would be significantly better off with oil and gas revenue, but this would be an even larger proportion of Scottish GDP and is no way guaranteed. My issue is the volatility.
And that £20b is a ridiculous underestimate. Probably by a factor of 10-20. There are something like 300-350 facilities in the north sea with all the infrastructure that will need to be decommissioned. Now, there could be a nice 50-year industry for decom if scotland gets it's act together to comepete with England and Norway (and Shetland for that matter) but it's not sustainable, long term.
The cost of decommissioning is a gargantuan tax write-off that will seriously hurt the revenue to either the UK or Scottish government.
OlberJ said:
I'm not avoiding facts as we don't have any facts yet!
Westminster won't deal in facts until after the referendum remember?
Plan A is the only way. Don't like it, we'll come down and wreck the place. A coo d'etart is on the cards and westminster is clearly scared.
So should there be another referendum once the details are know?Westminster won't deal in facts until after the referendum remember?
Plan A is the only way. Don't like it, we'll come down and wreck the place. A coo d'etart is on the cards and westminster is clearly scared.
Will the SNP promise this?
OlberJ said:
I'm not avoiding facts as we don't have any facts yet!
Westminster won't deal in facts until after the referendum remember?
Plan A is the only way. Don't like it, we'll come down and wreck the place. A coo d'etart is on the cards and westminster is clearly scared.
When is a fact a fact? To Nats it is not a fact if there is the slightest chance it might not happen.Westminster won't deal in facts until after the referendum remember?
Plan A is the only way. Don't like it, we'll come down and wreck the place. A coo d'etart is on the cards and westminster is clearly scared.
It is not a fact that the sun will rise tomorrow, and it is not a fact that Scotland would be in the economic mess caused by having no currency of it's own, but we can be pretty sure it will happen.
It is not a fact that it will be cold in winter, nor is it a fact that Scotland would struggle to remain in the EU, particularly not at the UK level, but we can be pretty sure of it.
It is not a fact that the world will keep turning, nor is it a fact that the Scottish finance sector would lose a lot of jobs as companies relocate should, but you just know it will happen.
It is not a fact that the moon will keep orbiting the earth, nor is it a fact that Scotland will suffer from a big budget deficit it couldn't support, but you could put bets on it.
The list goes on and on, but you are right, they aren't facts, everything is scaremongering and anti-Scottish.
That's the whole point of the process taking 18 months. When the decision is made to go independent we then work out how things are going to be done.
We don't wake up on 19th September and stick forever with whatever has been talked about as how we live.
It's debate, it's negotiation, it's building the things we need to be independent and thrive.
We don't wake up on 19th September and stick forever with whatever has been talked about as how we live.
It's debate, it's negotiation, it's building the things we need to be independent and thrive.
OlberJ said:
That's the whole point of the process taking 18 months. When the decision is made to go independent we then work out how things are going to be done.
We don't wake up on 19th September and stick forever with whatever has been talked about as how we live.
It's debate, it's negotiation, it's building the things we need to be independent and thrive.
It isn't for the voter. For the voter it's about making the decision on no facts, just probabilities, none of them too pleasant. But the facts only come out later.We don't wake up on 19th September and stick forever with whatever has been talked about as how we live.
It's debate, it's negotiation, it's building the things we need to be independent and thrive.
It's like agreeing to buy a house you haven't seen, don't know where it is, how big it is, what it looks like or how much it costs. But with no get out clause if when you know the facts you don't like them.
As for negotiation, it would be the most one sided negotiation you could imagine. It would be a case of taking what Westminster gives, there would be no negotiation worth talking of because independence only happens given legislation through Westminster. If a lot of English MPs won't vote for it then it won't happen.
The difference being, it's your house. You decide what to do with it.
Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
OlberJ said:
I don't see Westminster rule and the set up we have as solid concrete.
Things were very bad a few years ago, lest we forget.
I just don't see why you have faith in the governments that value London above all else. Do you think they're stupid or generous or would you like to move down there and be friends with them?
You're not getting my point. It's not about what government in what parliament, I can deal with pretty much whatever that throws up.Things were very bad a few years ago, lest we forget.
I just don't see why you have faith in the governments that value London above all else. Do you think they're stupid or generous or would you like to move down there and be friends with them?
The point is the foundations on which the country is built and shaped - the circumstances the governments have to work with. I believe we're better off sharing the same foundations, with the UK central bank, pooling of tax resources, common defence policy, while running our own affairs when it comes to NHS, education, transport, etc.
OlberJ said:
The difference being, it's your house. You decide what to do with it.
Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
Scotland voted for the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns as much as anyone else did. The cabinet was full of Scots. I can't agree with your rent analogy - we share the UK, we don't rent.Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
Why do you say Scotland isn't flourishing just now? I think we are
OlberJ said:
The difference being, it's your house. You decide what to do with it.
Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
You sir and your ilk are the reason i am voting NORather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
YOU are the foot soldiers of the YES movement
and you refuse to enter into any deabte and refuse to provide any facts
You just waffle on about want want want want and not a f
king clue how we can pay for it or even provide itFacts not fairy tails
OlberJ said:
The difference being, it's your house. You decide what to do with it.
Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
When one is comfortable, well built and warm buying somewhere that is none of those things makes ownership no consolation over part ownership. (said in the full expectation of being called scaremongering and anti-Scottish for suggesting that it may be anything less than a palace). Rather than living in someone else's house and paying them rent.
OlberJ said:
The latter leaves no room for us to flourish, as has been shown over the last couple of hundred years. And flourish does not equate to being involved in wars to show how great we are.
Well things are flourishing pretty well now and we are not even involved in any wars. Siscar said:
When one is comfortable, well built and warm buying somewhere that is none of those things makes ownership no consolation over part ownership. (said in the full expectation of being called scaremongering and anti-Scottish for suggesting that it may be anything less than a palace).
That you see an independent Scotland as none of those things, doesn't make it true.We're not in any wars currently and if it stays that way it will be awfy nice. So we won't be needing those expensive trident subs either eh?
OlberJ said:
So it's gone from Eck leading us all into a recession to everyone's fault?
Disingenuous as usual.The recession was not specific to the UK. Which is why the label 'global crisis' has often been applied. If you want to figure how bad it would have been for Scotland had it been alone then look at Ireland and figure had RBS and HBoS been in the Scottish mix that the Scottish situation would have been off the scale in the wrong direction.
Within Europe the UK was uniquely resilient despite the hammering it took and the debt it has built up (and continues to build). Next time around and if it's outside the UK then Scotland will not benefit from that resiliency.
McWigglebum4th said:
You sir and your ilk are the reason i am voting NO
YOU are the foot soldiers of the YES movement
and you refuse to enter into any deabte and refuse to provide any facts
You just waffle on about want want want want and not a facking clue how we can pay for it or even provide it
Facts not fairy tails
Alright, you've shouted for attention enough. Feel better now petal?YOU are the foot soldiers of the YES movement
and you refuse to enter into any deabte and refuse to provide any facts
You just waffle on about want want want want and not a facking clue how we can pay for it or even provide it
Facts not fairy tails
OlberJ said:
Siscar said:
When one is comfortable, well built and warm buying somewhere that is none of those things makes ownership no consolation over part ownership. (said in the full expectation of being called scaremongering and anti-Scottish for suggesting that it may be anything less than a palace).
That you see an independent Scotland as none of those things, doesn't make it true.OlberJ said:
We're not in any wars currently and if it stays that way it will be awfy nice. So we won't be needing those expensive trident subs either eh?
Hmm, you obviously don't understand what a deterrent is then.But love it or hate it, on it hangs billions of pounds spent in Scotland and thousands of jobs created supporting it. I think there are a fair few people to the west of Glasgow who are quite fond of trident.
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