Forth Road Bridge after work each evening
Discussion
The biggest issue I have with their plan is at half 8 this morning traffic reports were still saying 3-5 mile queues for the Clackmannan bridge southbound with cars etc. Same time, the A985 approach was completely clear.
It should have been implemented like a bus lane. Then at least people could have made the call to leave early or late and use that route before it was trucks and buses for the main rush hour period, say 6:30 till 8:30 and 16:00 to 18:00.
It should have been implemented like a bus lane. Then at least people could have made the call to leave early or late and use that route before it was trucks and buses for the main rush hour period, say 6:30 till 8:30 and 16:00 to 18:00.
Edinburger said:
Davie said:
I did Dunfermline > Dunbar and back yesterday and it was uncannily quiet... no hold ups at all, even at Kincardine and Hermiston. The biggest balls up is the roundabout south of the Kincardine - Kincardine bridge traffic has a 'filter' round the outside of the roundabout on to the M876 so no stopping at the give way as Clacks bridge trafiic is filtered in to the inside lane and thus the fast lane of the M876... however, Clacks bridge traffic southbound has to stop to yeild to traffic headed north off the M876 and cutting over their path on to the Kincardine bridge.
The closue of the A985 is frankly ludicrous... granted Friday was a disaster but you'd think most people will have no planned other routes, ie A9 from the north past Stirling and then Kinross > Kincardine thus taking some of the strain off the A985. Granted, yes... still a huge amount of traffic but with extra trains and buses, the 11 mile tailbacks should be a one off. Closing the road to private traffic is going to be fun... detour down the Bogside road or over Knockhill, awesome!
My sister is now debating leaving her car in Dalmeny and getting the train over the bridge and then pick it up from there... when public transport allows but being on shifts, at 3am that's not an option and I gather the A985 is closed regardless of time, so looking like a fairly significant detour via Bogside and the Kincardine Bridge. That'll be fun if we get snow or ice.
Hopefully the planners / trains / buses will kick into some sort of action plan this week and the dust will settle slightly. I feel for those who have no choice but to travel and those whose businesses will be hit hard by this. The ripples will travel far and wide I suspect!
I initially thought the closure of the A985 is ludicrous but it does at least mean that the slower moving vehicles are mainly on that road. I was across the water on Friday and decided to go up the M90 then joined the A91 (Jct. 6, from memory?) which took me through Dollar > Alva > Stirling to the M80 southbound. Longer route but at least it was without the frustration of standstill traffic.The closue of the A985 is frankly ludicrous... granted Friday was a disaster but you'd think most people will have no planned other routes, ie A9 from the north past Stirling and then Kinross > Kincardine thus taking some of the strain off the A985. Granted, yes... still a huge amount of traffic but with extra trains and buses, the 11 mile tailbacks should be a one off. Closing the road to private traffic is going to be fun... detour down the Bogside road or over Knockhill, awesome!
My sister is now debating leaving her car in Dalmeny and getting the train over the bridge and then pick it up from there... when public transport allows but being on shifts, at 3am that's not an option and I gather the A985 is closed regardless of time, so looking like a fairly significant detour via Bogside and the Kincardine Bridge. That'll be fun if we get snow or ice.
Hopefully the planners / trains / buses will kick into some sort of action plan this week and the dust will settle slightly. I feel for those who have no choice but to travel and those whose businesses will be hit hard by this. The ripples will travel far and wide I suspect!
I know a few friends who spoke about leaving their car at Dalmeny and one did that and got the train from Dunfermline this morning (he works in Livingston)... but the train was so full that it didn't stop at Dalmeny so he had to get off at Haymarket and get another train back to Dalmeny!
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ModernAndy said:
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ks should be on the line and "lessons should be learnt". simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ks should be on the line and "lessons should be learnt". simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ks should be on the line and "lessons should be learnt". Leithen said:
Exactly. Did the scrapping of the tolls restrict the budget for repairs? It ought to have been earning £20 Million+ per year this decade.
And I'm sure in this day and age there's no need to physically stop all traffic to speak to a cashier in a box so traffic flow need not be impeded.Not sure on this one - tbh I'm happy to have the bridge maintenance funded out of general taxation and not the direct users as we all get benefits from Edinburgh being connected to Fife so easily (as evidenced by the difficulties now it isn't!)
dxg said:
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ks should be on the line and "lessons should be learnt". Leithen said:
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ks should be on the line and "lessons should be learnt". ModernAndy said:
If you want to blame somebody for that then look no further than those who scrapped measures such as air conditioning for the cables when the bridge was built. The thing is a timebomb but lots of work has been done of late to keep it in as good a condition as possible: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j8512a-...
Or who scrapped the highlighted below:
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
If you want to blame somebody for that then look no further than those who scrapped measures such as air conditioning for the cables when the bridge was built. The thing is a timebomb but lots of work has been done of late to keep it in as good a condition as possible: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j8512a-...
Or who scrapped the highlighted below:Apart from that, you could argue that the money was diverted to the new bridge. I don't know enough about engineering or the FRB to discern whether the fault was caused by something that could have been avoided by doing that strengthening work to be totally honest.
ModernAndy said:
Leithen said:
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
dxg said:
And hopefully there will be some political fallout.
No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
As in something agreeable to you? Face it, there's no easy solution to the FRB closing when you take into account the fact that rush hour traffic over it was nearly in the tens of thousands per hour and any road diversion involves an extra 20 miles of travel at a minimum. If there is to be a political gain or loss made of this, the SNP can at least claim (although perhaps not exclusively) the foresight of getting the crumbling old relic replaced. I doubt there is any sort of panacea to all the issues thrown up by the FRB closure and I say that as somebody who regularly needs to travel from Fife to Edinburgh and as a business owner reliant on goods going over the bridge both ways. If anybody does think they know a pain free way of sorting this situation out to everybody's benefit then please do write to your MP and let us know your plans.No, wait, this is Scotland we're talking about...
ks should be on the line and "lessons should be learnt". Establishing road tolls are well nigh impossible politically in the UK. The FRB already had them, and despite a strong campaign for them to be scrapped, they were bringing desperately needed cash that an ageing bridge needed. Scrapping them was utter madness, made even worse by the fact that an £8 million toll plaza including electronic auto toll tech had just been completed. It was never used.
So feckless - God Yes.
Disaster - look at where we are today. The last seven to eight years ought to have brought in well over £100 Million. Would there have been any delay in works had the tolls still been in operation?
ModernAndy said:
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
If you want to blame somebody for that then look no further than those who scrapped measures such as air conditioning for the cables when the bridge was built. The thing is a timebomb but lots of work has been done of late to keep it in as good a condition as possible: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j8512a-...
Or who scrapped the highlighted below:Apart from that, you could argue that the money was diverted to the new bridge. I don't know enough about engineering or the FRB to discern whether the fault was caused by something that could have been avoided by doing that strengthening work to be totally honest.
From the article:
" The bridge was shut after fractures were spotted in a load-bearing beam called a “truss end link member” in the north-east tower. The member is part of a linkage system which, as documents from 2010 show, was found to “be significantly overstressed”. A strengthening programme was ordered and then almost immediately cancelled.
Transport Scotland insisted the strengthening programme and last week’s problem are “unrelated”."
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
simoid said:
ModernAndy said:
If you want to blame somebody for that then look no further than those who scrapped measures such as air conditioning for the cables when the bridge was built. The thing is a timebomb but lots of work has been done of late to keep it in as good a condition as possible: http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/report/j8512a-...
Or who scrapped the highlighted below:Apart from that, you could argue that the money was diverted to the new bridge. I don't know enough about engineering or the FRB to discern whether the fault was caused by something that could have been avoided by doing that strengthening work to be totally honest.
From the article:
" The bridge was shut after fractures were spotted in a load-bearing beam called a “truss end link member” in the north-east tower. The member is part of a linkage system which, as documents from 2010 show, was found to “be significantly overstressed”. A strengthening programme was ordered and then almost immediately cancelled.
Transport Scotland insisted the strengthening programme and last week’s problem are “unrelated”."
Leithen said:
Yes.
Establishing road tolls are well nigh impossible politically in the UK. The FRB already had them, and despite a strong campaign for them to be scrapped, they were bringing desperately needed cash that an ageing bridge needed. Scrapping them was utter madness, made even worse by the fact that an £8 million toll plaza including electronic auto toll tech had just been completed. It was never used.
So feckless - God Yes.
Disaster - look at where we are today. The last seven to eight years ought to have brought in well over £100 Million. Would there have been any delay in works had the tolls still been in operation?
You'll be keeping a keen eye on the Tay, Erskine and Skye bridges too then I'm sure, they're bound to fall down at any moment by that logic. I would disagree that the FRB could bring in as much as £20m per year (which still falls far short of its actual recent maintenance costs and in a full 9 months would barely cover the £15m costs of the truss end links strengthening that was proposed) but that's not an issue worth having a debate about as tax payers are funding all repair and maintenance works anyway regardless of whether they directly use the bridge or not (which I don't consider unfair as most of the East of Scotland benefits in numerous ways from the bridge). I would say it was far better to remove the tolls than to continue using them just because of the sunk cost of investment but we will obviously disagree in our reasoning. Establishing road tolls are well nigh impossible politically in the UK. The FRB already had them, and despite a strong campaign for them to be scrapped, they were bringing desperately needed cash that an ageing bridge needed. Scrapping them was utter madness, made even worse by the fact that an £8 million toll plaza including electronic auto toll tech had just been completed. It was never used.
So feckless - God Yes.
Disaster - look at where we are today. The last seven to eight years ought to have brought in well over £100 Million. Would there have been any delay in works had the tolls still been in operation?
The salient point is that the amount raised in tolls would have little impact on the amount spent on the bridge in total. Saying that, can you give some figures showing the funding of the bridge fell after the tolls were removed?
ModernAndy said:
I would imagine Transport Scotland acted on the advice of a team of very senior engineers who calculated the truss could hold up until the new bridge was built. They maybe were wrong but there is also the possibility that they are correct in stating that the problems are unrelated. A bit early to say perhaps.
Yes indeed - there's much we don't know at present. As a result I'm not placing much trust in the statements by Transport Scotland, as it's the bks of them and the transport minister which are on the line they're likely to say anything to keep the heat off. And for the mean time I'm sure we'd love them to concentrate on getting it sorted 
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