Discussion
I've hung around on here for a while but not posted until now - and the only reason I do so now is because I don't know where else to turn for advice.
Just received the HSC venues and dates for next year and note with despair that double headers at 2 of my favourite venues have been dropped! There is a one day Golspie in March but frankly who wants to go there in March and chance the weather when there's a whole weekend in June we could use? And the reasons? A new double header at Lossiemouth, and difficulty in getting entries?
Lossie may suit some people but not all of us. It's OK if you want a blast on long straights, but if I want to do that I'll go to track days. And the idea of having to stop if a jet wants to manoeuvre - no thanks!!
Entries? - OK it was frustrating being on a reserve list but you usually get an entry in the end cos so many drop out and ADMC managed to get everyone through in October - where's the REAL problem?
I've spoken to my Club rep and the dropping of dates and venues wasn't discussed at the meeting between the clubs and the HSC at Alford in October, so presumably this was an idea one of the HSC committee which came up afterwards. Trouble is, apparently the clubs aren't represented on the HSC committee itself so don't know anymore than I do. I know I can contact "a certain lady" - :cesored: Who else can I talk to? Does anyone know? Or am I stuck with entering the full Scottish if I want to do the events I like doing?
ETA
Sorry for the
But the Sites no naming and shaming policy applies to individuals as well as companies!
Just received the HSC venues and dates for next year and note with despair that double headers at 2 of my favourite venues have been dropped! There is a one day Golspie in March but frankly who wants to go there in March and chance the weather when there's a whole weekend in June we could use? And the reasons? A new double header at Lossiemouth, and difficulty in getting entries?
Lossie may suit some people but not all of us. It's OK if you want a blast on long straights, but if I want to do that I'll go to track days. And the idea of having to stop if a jet wants to manoeuvre - no thanks!!
Entries? - OK it was frustrating being on a reserve list but you usually get an entry in the end cos so many drop out and ADMC managed to get everyone through in October - where's the REAL problem?
I've spoken to my Club rep and the dropping of dates and venues wasn't discussed at the meeting between the clubs and the HSC at Alford in October, so presumably this was an idea one of the HSC committee which came up afterwards. Trouble is, apparently the clubs aren't represented on the HSC committee itself so don't know anymore than I do. I know I can contact "a certain lady" - :cesored: Who else can I talk to? Does anyone know? Or am I stuck with entering the full Scottish if I want to do the events I like doing?
ETA
Sorry for the
But the Sites no naming and shaming policy applies to individuals as well as companies!
Edited by Big Al. on Friday 7th December 12:10
Hmm, I too was surprised by the dropping of the June Golspie although as as one that only got in to September on reserves I can see why it might have been done.
Personally, I would just have dropped the requirement to do each venue, but that is perhaps because it is a favourite venue where I tend to go well.. But am unlikely to go there in March as I don't have winter tyres (or even wets) fitted to the radical.
I do know however that all championship and club committees will not take any notice of anonymous suggestions mr twisty.
A more interesting issue is the two day (Doune style) Alford which as anyone who knows me I avoid partly due the format of the event.
Having driven in the dusk and dark at the October Alford it is no real loss to the championship, but again as avenue I tend not to well at perhaps I am biased.
Curious to see what the different layout Lossimouth is.
Personally, I would just have dropped the requirement to do each venue, but that is perhaps because it is a favourite venue where I tend to go well.. But am unlikely to go there in March as I don't have winter tyres (or even wets) fitted to the radical.
I do know however that all championship and club committees will not take any notice of anonymous suggestions mr twisty.
A more interesting issue is the two day (Doune style) Alford which as anyone who knows me I avoid partly due the format of the event.
Having driven in the dusk and dark at the October Alford it is no real loss to the championship, but again as avenue I tend not to well at perhaps I am biased.
Curious to see what the different layout Lossimouth is.
Edited by k13job on Thursday 6th December 23:35
Edited by k13job on Thursday 6th December 23:40
k13job said:
Having driven in the dusk and dark at the October Alford it is no real loss to the championship, but again as a venue I tend not to well at perhaps I am biased.
Nothing like keeping the event organisers in the dark as a method for creating problems for the competitors... Because of a potential clash with other events, ADMC have moved their Alford weekend to 20/21 September. And don't forget that Wallace smashed the outright Alford record 'in the dark' this year, Angus! I think you are right - it might be you.... (I'm not brave enough to be quick there either!)
The ADMC Alford weekend 20/21 Sept (SSC) clashes with the Lossie (HSC)weekend, that is bad planning.
HSC and SSC seem to have Golspie two consecutive weekends HSC on 6/7 Sept and SSC on 13/14, is that correct ?
Unless I have the wrong dates of course but I just printed them for the two websites this morning.
HSC and SSC seem to have Golspie two consecutive weekends HSC on 6/7 Sept and SSC on 13/14, is that correct ?
Unless I have the wrong dates of course but I just printed them for the two websites this morning.
Murray, I think our site posts the provisional dates as they were understood by us at the date of the last comittee meeting. I
believe that the later date is the correct one and this will be updated on
our site and in the Regs.
When I first saw the anonymous original post I was not going to grace it
with a reply but speaking as sponsor and not on behalf of the committee I
though I'd post a few comments:-
As I understand it, part of the ethos behind the HSC was to promote
motorsport in Scotland generally and the North of Scotland in particular : a
championship that would encourage new entrants and support new venues.
Lossie is a new venue. Golspie and Alford are not. Golspie and Alford are
over-subscribed. Lossie is not.
HSC also wanted to make the championship as "competitor friendly" as
possible to the extent that at the end of each season they invite feedback
from each competitor. Believe me, each and every point raised is carefully
considered at committee level and any suggestion to the contrary is simply
incorrect.
So far as the "clash of dates" is concerned, I agree that this is
unfortunate. However, with a finite season and more venues proposed, this is something that will crop up more and more as new venues are introduced. I
understand that the MSA has a mechanism for the various clubs to co-ordinate the dates. I don't know whether this is being fully implemented in Scotland but I'm fairly sure that it is not HSC's responsibility.This is perhaps a matter that should be addressed in 2008 for the 2009 season
Incidentally for sake of accuracy, the Autumn Alford was never a double header so far as the HSC is concerned. The OP is wrong.Also the requirement
to compete at each venue was dropped last year. The only stipulation is that each competitor is required to do a hillclimb as it is a "speed", not a
"sprint" championship.
As ever, if the competitors think the committee have got it wrong please raise the matters of concern in an appropriate manner: preferably not by a rather tactless anonymous posting on Pistonheads. Quite frankly it is just this sort of stuff that has made my own decision to cease competing much
easier
Over and out
JP
EFA - with apologies
believe that the later date is the correct one and this will be updated on
our site and in the Regs.
When I first saw the anonymous original post I was not going to grace it
with a reply but speaking as sponsor and not on behalf of the committee I
though I'd post a few comments:-
As I understand it, part of the ethos behind the HSC was to promote
motorsport in Scotland generally and the North of Scotland in particular : a
championship that would encourage new entrants and support new venues.
Lossie is a new venue. Golspie and Alford are not. Golspie and Alford are
over-subscribed. Lossie is not.
HSC also wanted to make the championship as "competitor friendly" as
possible to the extent that at the end of each season they invite feedback
from each competitor. Believe me, each and every point raised is carefully
considered at committee level and any suggestion to the contrary is simply
incorrect.
So far as the "clash of dates" is concerned, I agree that this is
unfortunate. However, with a finite season and more venues proposed, this is something that will crop up more and more as new venues are introduced. I
understand that the MSA has a mechanism for the various clubs to co-ordinate the dates. I don't know whether this is being fully implemented in Scotland but I'm fairly sure that it is not HSC's responsibility.This is perhaps a matter that should be addressed in 2008 for the 2009 season
Incidentally for sake of accuracy, the Autumn Alford was never a double header so far as the HSC is concerned. The OP is wrong.Also the requirement
to compete at each venue was dropped last year. The only stipulation is that each competitor is required to do a hillclimb as it is a "speed", not a
"sprint" championship.
As ever, if the competitors think the committee have got it wrong please raise the matters of concern in an appropriate manner: preferably not by a rather tactless anonymous posting on Pistonheads. Quite frankly it is just this sort of stuff that has made my own decision to cease competing much
easier
Over and out
JP
EFA - with apologies
Edited by stiglet on Saturday 8th December 12:26
G4Addicted said:
And don't forget that Wallace smashed the outright Alford record 'in the dark' this year, Angus! I think you are right - it might be you.... (I'm not brave enough to be quick there either!)
Point taken, especially as Sinky also broke the SL record, driving after me in the order....PS My previous comments should in no way no taken as getting at any of the HSC committee personally, (unlike the original post)they are always doing a difficult job (voluntarily)with little thanks and obviously it is impossible to please everyone.
With a crowded calendar and wishing to bring on new clubs and venues date clashes are almost inevitable. If I remember right the ADMC Alford was originally moved so late in the season because of date clashes anyway?
and Yes, I had forgotton the requirement to do each clubs event had already been dropped and it didn't solve the problem so pehaps it was time for a more drastic solution after all.
I'm away to start preparing the car for next year, Merry Christmas an a good year's sport to all.
Angus
stiglet said:
So far as the "clash of dates" is concerned, I agree that this is
unfortunate. However, with a finite season and more venues proposed, this is something that will crop up more and more as new venues are introduced. I
understand that the MSA has a mechanism for the various clubs to co-ordinate the dates. I don't know whether this is being fully implemented in Scotland but I'm fairly sure that it is not HSC's responsibility.This is perhaps a matter that should be addressed in 2008 for the 2009 season
John,unfortunate. However, with a finite season and more venues proposed, this is something that will crop up more and more as new venues are introduced. I
understand that the MSA has a mechanism for the various clubs to co-ordinate the dates. I don't know whether this is being fully implemented in Scotland but I'm fairly sure that it is not HSC's responsibility.This is perhaps a matter that should be addressed in 2008 for the 2009 season
You are right - the MSA expects clubs organising events to be members of a regional association, and take their proposed dates to that regional group for agreement. There are two such groups in Scotland - one in the East and one in the West. ADMC are members of the East of Scotland regional association and have their dates agreed there. If the HSC Club is planning on organising its own events (it's not clear who is organising the new Lossie event), it will need to join a regional group.
The problems occur when people do things without consultation or taking things through the proper communication channels - in this particular case, I believe ADMC have followed the correct process, so the root cause of the date clash lies elsewhere.
DB
Corpulent Tosser said:
The ADMC Alford weekend 20/21 Sept (SSC) clashes with the Lossie (HSC)weekend, that is bad planning.
HSC and SSC seem to have Golspie two consecutive weekends HSC on 6/7 Sept and SSC on 13/14, is that correct ?
Unless I have the wrong dates of course but I just printed them for the two websites this morning.
Just so folk know, 6/7 was not a provisional date. CCC advised the SSHC committee of the 13/14 date, but the co-ordinator (me - what a numpty!) made a mistake in a draft calendar that went on to the Internet (here), having been published in Speedsport without consultation (which was unfortunate). HSC and SSC seem to have Golspie two consecutive weekends HSC on 6/7 Sept and SSC on 13/14, is that correct ?
Unless I have the wrong dates of course but I just printed them for the two websites this morning.
I can only assume that the HSC saw the calendar from either here or from Speedsport and took their dates from there - all of the correspondence we have received from CCC is for the 13/14 weekend.
PS My previous comments should in no way no taken as getting at any of the HSC committee personally, (unlike the original post)they are always doing a difficult job (voluntarily)with little thanks and obviously it is impossible to please everyone.
Hope that the blisters are not too bad from the shovel handle as you attempt to dig your way out of that one.
Hope that the blisters are not too bad from the shovel handle as you attempt to dig your way out of that one.
Opps - seem to have trodden on a few toes here, and didn't necessarily mean to do so - all I was doing was A) commenting on the bombshell of venue / event dropping and the fact the affected Clubs seem to know nothing beforehand, and B) asking "Who other than the co-ordinator - no names no pack drill - do I contact? - Who else is on the "Committee"?"
Stiglet again talks about "The Committee", and others refer to all these people doing a thankless task - how can they be thanked if we don't know who they are?! Is it a Secret Club, with handshakes required to enter?! The more evasive people are the more you have to think there's something to hide!!
Stiglet again talks about "The Committee", and others refer to all these people doing a thankless task - how can they be thanked if we don't know who they are?! Is it a Secret Club, with handshakes required to enter?! The more evasive people are the more you have to think there's something to hide!!
A slight side step from the origonal thread topic, but related.
I'm no expert, but as a Motorsport club official of a few years, I've wondered how the Highland Speed championship can be a 'club' ? I assume it is affiliated with the MSA, as members can get a licence using this as their designated club, therefore it must have a constitution ?
No AGM though (from what I understand), who elects the comittee in this case, I'm getting vibes from this thread that the members of this comittee seem to be a bit vague.
I'm sure JP ( given your profession) can confirm or enlighten me, a club and it's members are a legal entity.
e.g. as a member of a properly constituted club a member cannot, for example, sue that club, as under our laws they would be sueing themself ? (See the case involving West of Scotland Kart club that caused so many waves recently, and still ripling).
Do the members get to see the constitution/Articals of association, or indeed the accounts of the club they are a member of ?
No axe to grind here, just curious.
---Fastest Loser---
I'm no expert, but as a Motorsport club official of a few years, I've wondered how the Highland Speed championship can be a 'club' ? I assume it is affiliated with the MSA, as members can get a licence using this as their designated club, therefore it must have a constitution ?
No AGM though (from what I understand), who elects the comittee in this case, I'm getting vibes from this thread that the members of this comittee seem to be a bit vague.
I'm sure JP ( given your profession) can confirm or enlighten me, a club and it's members are a legal entity.
e.g. as a member of a properly constituted club a member cannot, for example, sue that club, as under our laws they would be sueing themself ? (See the case involving West of Scotland Kart club that caused so many waves recently, and still ripling).
Do the members get to see the constitution/Articals of association, or indeed the accounts of the club they are a member of ?
No axe to grind here, just curious.
---Fastest Loser---
Edited by Gizmo1314 on Friday 7th December 21:20
Edited by Gizmo1314 on Friday 7th December 21:22
Gizmo1314 said:
A slight side step from the origonal thread topic, but related.
I'm no expert, but as a Motorsport club official of a few years, I've wondered how the Highland Speed championship can be a 'club' ? I assume it is affiliated with the MSA, as members can get a licence using this as their designated club, therefore it must have a constitution ?
No AGM though (from what I understand), who elects the comittee in this case, I'm getting vibes from this thread that the members of this comittee seem to be a bit vague.
I'm sure JP ( given your profession) can confirm or enlighten me, a club and it's members are a legal entity.
e.g. as a member of a properly constituted club a member cannot, for example, sue that club, as under our laws they would be sueing themself ? (See the case involving West of Scotland Kart club that caused so many waves recently, and still ripling).
Do the members get to see the constitution/Articals of association, or indeed the accounts of the club they are a member of ?
No axe to grind here, just curious.
---Fastest Loser---
I've stayed out of this - I thought the original unedited post was possibly a little 'direct and to the point' even by my standards, but having seen 'twisted boy''s later explanatory post and Gizmo's contribution above, I'll add my two penn'orth. I'm no expert, but as a Motorsport club official of a few years, I've wondered how the Highland Speed championship can be a 'club' ? I assume it is affiliated with the MSA, as members can get a licence using this as their designated club, therefore it must have a constitution ?
No AGM though (from what I understand), who elects the comittee in this case, I'm getting vibes from this thread that the members of this comittee seem to be a bit vague.
I'm sure JP ( given your profession) can confirm or enlighten me, a club and it's members are a legal entity.
e.g. as a member of a properly constituted club a member cannot, for example, sue that club, as under our laws they would be sueing themself ? (See the case involving West of Scotland Kart club that caused so many waves recently, and still ripling).
Do the members get to see the constitution/Articals of association, or indeed the accounts of the club they are a member of ?
No axe to grind here, just curious.
---Fastest Loser---
I think what is being asked for is just a little more visibilty on the part of the ruling body of the HSC - every club of which I'm a member publishes its committee members and other pertinent information - the HSC, as far as I can make out, is the exception and that is what leads to the questions now being asked.
It's always been my assumption that there isn't actually a proper HSC 'committee' of elected officers and club reps such as that which governs the Scottish championships, just the 2 co-ordinators plus the title sponsor getting together around the table at appropriate points in the season, but from Stiglet's post (and he should know!) there appears to be more to it than that?
Stiglet?! Edited by Broomsticklady on Friday 7th December 23:01
stiglet said:
Murray, I think our site posts the provisional dates as intimated to us. I
believe that the later date is the correct one and this will be updated on
our site and in the Regs.
Thanks John, that clears it up, I am trying to get my rota for next year sorted out to get as many events as I can, so knowing the dates is useful.believe that the later date is the correct one and this will be updated on
our site and in the Regs.
Cheers
Murray
Hi folks i dont normally get involved in these debates,I would contact the HSC committee if i could but as this is not possiblle i will make my comments public.
I cant understand why June Golspie should be dropped from the HSC Calendar, it is probably the best sprint track in any of the championships, most enjoyed by all who attend, ..so why drop it in favour of two new Lossie's? I really have enjoyed Lossie this past two years and welcome an event in late Sept but not at the loss of Golspie!! The Sept Lossie did not have to be scoring!
Maybe the Clubs which run the events could have been contacted or represented at the HSC?
Lets have a debate and see what the competitors would like?
Regards
Lenny
I cant understand why June Golspie should be dropped from the HSC Calendar, it is probably the best sprint track in any of the championships, most enjoyed by all who attend, ..so why drop it in favour of two new Lossie's? I really have enjoyed Lossie this past two years and welcome an event in late Sept but not at the loss of Golspie!! The Sept Lossie did not have to be scoring!
Maybe the Clubs which run the events could have been contacted or represented at the HSC?
Lets have a debate and see what the competitors would like?
Regards
Lenny
From an entirely selfish point of view, I would have liked to see the june event count toward the HSC, as it is one of the events I am home for (with my current rota, which could change).
I would like to see as many events as possible count toward the championship, but still only the best 8 counting, this would allow competitors to miss rounds but still get enough scoring rounds to do well in the championship. I did admit it is a selfish point of view
That said I think the organisers do a bloody good job, an often thankless job, and if it weren't for them we wouldn't have events to compete at anyway, so I have no complaints about the current events schedule.
Murray
I would like to see as many events as possible count toward the championship, but still only the best 8 counting, this would allow competitors to miss rounds but still get enough scoring rounds to do well in the championship. I did admit it is a selfish point of view
That said I think the organisers do a bloody good job, an often thankless job, and if it weren't for them we wouldn't have events to compete at anyway, so I have no complaints about the current events schedule.
Murray
Folks,
Whilst I have no wish to prolong or resurrect this thread, some questions have been directed at me and it is right and proper that I reply.
If the questions can be summarised:-
"Is HSC Club now a correctly constituted, MSA affiliated Club with a Constitution duly registered with the MSA in terms of a draft/ style previously supplied by the MSA, (which Constitution is available to members on request), with an inaugural committee the relevant percentage of which will resign and present itself for re-election at the first AGM to be held early 2008,timeous notice of which (which will include details of the Committee) will be sent to all 2007 members per the Constitution along with the regs for ‘08"?
Then the answer is “Yes”.
By way of explanation, the “founding fathers” of the HSC put their names on the paperwork as the first committee of HSC Club to get the thing up and running because the MSA required this. I am one (at the moment!) and the full details will be put on the Website. They’re all logged with the MSA anyway. There is certainly no intention to create any mystery!
As to change of status of HSC from a Championship “not quite sure what” (unincorporated body?) to an MSA Club, this was intimated in the March’07 newsletter sent to all members. So I’m not sure why there’s dubiety.
http://www.prhighlandspeedchampionship.co.uk/pdf/n...
Also see MSA site
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentChapterViewHo...
I’ve been asked to point out that the HSC Calendar is provisional only and one of the reasons for sending it out before it went to the MSA was by way of consultation to keep members informed and so that any representations could be made to the contacts on the website. We would only ask that folk bear in mind the stated aims of the HSC per my original post and whilst it is appreciated that folk will have their favourite venues (Golspie being one of mine) , if a new one comes along the thinking was to give it reasonable support.
I think that answers all the points except the legal one ....Now you wouldn’t expect an answer FOC would you
Cheers
JP
PS – I’ve just seen Thurso’s recent posting. I’m happy to be a “conduit” to the Committee if required and I think all HSC members know how to reach me – pref. by e-mail. And Cheers for the support Murray
ETA - and Stuart
Whilst I have no wish to prolong or resurrect this thread, some questions have been directed at me and it is right and proper that I reply.
If the questions can be summarised:-
"Is HSC Club now a correctly constituted, MSA affiliated Club with a Constitution duly registered with the MSA in terms of a draft/ style previously supplied by the MSA, (which Constitution is available to members on request), with an inaugural committee the relevant percentage of which will resign and present itself for re-election at the first AGM to be held early 2008,timeous notice of which (which will include details of the Committee) will be sent to all 2007 members per the Constitution along with the regs for ‘08"?
Then the answer is “Yes”.
By way of explanation, the “founding fathers” of the HSC put their names on the paperwork as the first committee of HSC Club to get the thing up and running because the MSA required this. I am one (at the moment!) and the full details will be put on the Website. They’re all logged with the MSA anyway. There is certainly no intention to create any mystery!
As to change of status of HSC from a Championship “not quite sure what” (unincorporated body?) to an MSA Club, this was intimated in the March’07 newsletter sent to all members. So I’m not sure why there’s dubiety.
http://www.prhighlandspeedchampionship.co.uk/pdf/n...
Also see MSA site
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentChapterViewHo...
I’ve been asked to point out that the HSC Calendar is provisional only and one of the reasons for sending it out before it went to the MSA was by way of consultation to keep members informed and so that any representations could be made to the contacts on the website. We would only ask that folk bear in mind the stated aims of the HSC per my original post and whilst it is appreciated that folk will have their favourite venues (Golspie being one of mine) , if a new one comes along the thinking was to give it reasonable support.
I think that answers all the points except the legal one ....Now you wouldn’t expect an answer FOC would you
Cheers
JP
PS – I’ve just seen Thurso’s recent posting. I’m happy to be a “conduit” to the Committee if required and I think all HSC members know how to reach me – pref. by e-mail. And Cheers for the support Murray
ETA - and Stuart
Edited by stiglet on Monday 10th December 11:36
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