Hot Marques Driving Standards (16/02/08)

[ASBO]

Hi Folks,

First of all, good to meet a few new faces at the weekend and great to catch up with the familiar ones. On the whole a good Saturday was had by all I think.

However, I wont be signing up to another Hot Marques event in the near future. I was quite frankly appalled by the driving standards (or lack thereof) displayed by a minority of the those in attendance. Moreover, I fear that these individuals were far from newcomers to the track.

The whole Hot Marques ethos as far as I am aware, encourages a more relaxed attitude to track driving so as to discourage the 'track heros' we all know and loathe (For those that like to swap paint the Speed Sunday events - FKA Hot Hatch Days, are open to all).

Now don't get me wrong, I like to push as hard as the next gentleman and have a bit of fun whilst I'm at it, but this weekend for me was a shakedown for the modifications I'm having done and therefore, mad max hot laps were not on the agenda. They will come when the club events start.

I was disapointed to note that this philosophy is no longer de rigeur (in the interests of revenue?) and the two disciplines seem to have merged. Accordingly, there were a number of occassions where I was forced to avoid having an accident due to at least one inconsiderate and overly aggressive driver. I made a complaint to the marshals about a particulary dangerous individual but was disapointed to discover that he continued to put my life in danger thereafter.

Now I feel I'm not alone. Previous Hot Marques events I've attended (as a apectator) have had some particularly exclusive metal on display (Lambos, Ferraris et al) and these were noticable by their relative absense on Saturday. Now I can see why.

As an aside, I was also less than pleased with the lack of organisation (once again) at the start - causing the sign-in and breifing to spill into the track time.

Perhaps ironcially - given the associated sterotype , the Subaru Impreza Drivers Club days organised by John Stuart have always recieved glowing reports. Given that my trackday habit stated at one these events (i.e as a novice), I was really rather chuffed indeed with the driving standard, capability and all round sportsmanship on display by all those in attendance - not to mention the quality of organisation. I will certainly be and look forward to attending another.

Have KH dropped a ball on this one? What did everyone else in attendance think? Are Mitsi' Evo's the new Nova* ()?

* For 99% of Evo owners this does not apply

[FezzaDezza]

ASBO said:

Now I feel I'm not alone. Previous Hot Marques events I've attended (as a apectator) have had some particularly exclusive metal on display (Lambos, Ferraris et al) and these were noticable by their relative absense on Saturday. Now I can see why.

I must say I'd love to attend one of these days in the Fezza but the thought of having some muppet hanging on my bumper driving like a psycho just so he can tell his mates he 'beat a Ferrari' is exactly the reason I dont attend.

I'm sure this does not apply to 99% of the drivers however it only takes one muppet and unfortuantely I've noticed having a shiny silver horsy on the back seems to be a target for such drivers..

[VetteG]

I wasnt out on track, since this was the first time I had attended a track day and I was using it to recce the whole situation before I commit my P&J.

As you say there were a few who caused me to raise an eyebrow, I noticed one driver in particular would not wait until the car in front had finished overtaking and on at least a couple of occassions forced an almost 3 abreast situation at the end of the main straight, had others not backed off. I certainly would have expected the marshals to be having 'a word' about that. It seems that some people want to treat these track days as cheap entry race meetings.

I will take your advice and have a look at the SIDC events, I have heard nothing but good about them.

BTW can someone explain to me how a glorified quad bike can be described as a 'Hot Marque"?

G

[ASBO]

VetteG said:

BTW can someone explain to me how a glorified quad bike can be described as a 'Hot Marque"?

G

Got it in one Graeme

For a select few, the day was more a quasi super-special rally event than a track day.

The large individual in a certain grey car who best represented this apparent trend was given a talking to but it seemingly did 'nowt. At the end, I lost my cool and 'had a word' myself. Not clever, but when your P&J is in danger of being prnaged by a tt of the highest order, you do feel compelled to allow them the chance to see the error of their ways.

I would highly recomend the SIDC days. The pace is fast but the standards are second to none. If there is any misbehviour the perpetrator will simply not be allowed back.

I'd love to see your 'Vette on track

[kenwood]

I thought it wasn't too bad although I had only been on track during the second half of the session and think I may have missed most of the poor driving.

I would agree with you on the Evos and Rages, particularly the Evos which seem to be on every Knockhill trackday and increasingly treat it as a race.

[VetteG]

kenwood said:

particularly the Evos which seem to be on every Knockhill trackday and increasingly treat it as a race.

Race entry 150 track day 70 and the opportunity to feel in a perverted way like a big fish, albeit in a puddle! (sorry canna get the pounds sign to work!)

G

[n1tut]

I just replied on the other thread, and it looks as if I was probably fortunate with my experience as I had no problems. It does help in having a car that can pass most of the others, including the Bruce Taxis and other Evo's, but as a HM day is open to almost anybody, the £10K minimum value seems to have gone bye the board, it is never going to be upto Johns SIDC standards, nor my own for tuttowers that I organise most years, as we know all the cars and drivers that will be attending.

However it was the first outing of the year for me, so I just wanted to get my car on track, and there is certainly no one out there that is going to intimidate me. However I appreciate that some of you with £100K worth of Lambo, Ferrari or Porsche can not risk any contact, and need to know who you are driving with.

My biggest gripe was the new charging system. I had my son, daughter and friend with me, and had to pay £5 each as passengers, and £40 if I wanted them to drive. As the car can only be on track with one driver, that is just a con. Neither John nor myself charge extra for drivers or passengers for our events, and we keep the payments below Knockhills.

Cheers

tut (yellow Elise, N3 TUT)

[AMD87]

kenwood said:

particularly the Evos which seem to be on every Knockhill trackday and increasingly treat it as a race.

to be honest i dont see why people bang on about the bruce taxi evos so much when these 3 elises run close together (which they have at alot of trackdays ive been to)

noones said anything about them (not that im saying they are dangerious cause they are great to watch as there must be alot of confidence,skill and trust involved) the 2 5's are built to the same spec so they are able run rather close together without being dangerous but then to someone that doesnt really know about them then they may see them as being dangerous.

think its still abit too cold for the supercars though! carlo usually turns up with a lambo and an ulitma but he wasnt there yesterday.

Edited by AMD87 on Monday 18th February 16:14

[kenwood]

AMD87 said:

to be honest i dont see why people bang on about the bruce taxi evos so much when these 3 elises run close together (which they have at alot of trackdays ive been to)

They dont bother me much, I have done enough trackdays to be used to cars close to me, I know that many others especially trackday newbies are not all that comfortable with them around.
The Elises above have also been commented on in the past, they dont seem appear to use the Scottish Elises site. They tend to stick to the hot marques events, no one was complaining about them as such but it was noted that they were very close together. I was told ages ago that they were ex bikers who had given it up and took to the Elises for a bit of fun. That could be utter bks mind you.

Edited by kenwood on Monday 18th February 17:53

[Nicholas Blair]

FezzaDezza said:

ASBO said:

Now I feel I'm not alone. Previous Hot Marques events I've attended (as a apectator) have had some particularly exclusive metal on display (Lambos, Ferraris et al) and these were noticable by their relative absense on Saturday. Now I can see why.

I must say I'd love to attend one of these days in the Fezza but the thought of having some muppet hanging on my bumper driving like a psycho just so he can tell his mates he 'beat a Ferrari' is exactly the reason I dont attend.

I'm sure this does not apply to 99% of the drivers however it only takes one muppet and unfortuantely I've noticed having a shiny silver horsy on the back seems to be a target for such drivers..

Nail, head.

[Stang]

I had decided to wait until I arrived at the track before deciding if I was going to take the Stang on and I am very glad I did. Far to much ego's flying for my liking. The last track day I attended had serious metal out to play and I felt less stressed being amoungst that lot than I would have on saturday.

Simon took me out with his M3 and I was shocked at the behaviour of some drivers. One car which was slower would not even move over to let us pass.

Still was nice top catch up with old friends and meet new one's. I will be having a serious think before heading down again also.

[D_T_W]

kenwood said:

AMD87 said:

to be honest i dont see why people bang on about the bruce taxi evos so much when these 3 elises run close together (which they have at alot of trackdays ive been to)

They dont bother me much, I have done enough trackdays to be used to cars close to me, I know that many others especially trackday newbies are not all that comfortable with them around.
The Elises above have also been commented on in the past, they dont seem appear to use the Scottish Elises site. They tend to stick to the hot marques events, no one was complaining about them as such but it was noted that they were very close together. I was told ages ago that they were ex bikers who had given it up and took to the Elises for a bit of fun. That could be utter bks mind you.

Edited by kenwood on Monday 18th February 17:53

It wasn't the Bruce Taxi Evo's that were the dheads, it was the group of 4 Evo's (from memory 3 dark grey, 1 silver, all later model Evo 7/8 MR's) that were. The Bruce Taxi guys were good, and by christ they were quick, but the Neds with the MR's were just driving like tools all day and hassling anybody they came across. The Elises were running close together, but they were driving with consideration of others on the track.

At the end of the day it is a track day, but if they want to drive like a knob go to a hot hatch day.

[n1tut]

The two gull wing topped Elises are not part of Scottish Elises, and just seem to do their own thing. Looks as if they have now been joined by the black one that I have not seen before, that arrived on a trailer.

However they always moved over when I was overtaking so were no problem.

The biggest laugh was the blue Scooby with no decals. He just carried on around on the left hand line with three of us behind him, with every blue flag on the circuit being waved at him. Made no difference to him, so after two laps I pulled alongside him on the right hand side on the pit straight and waved nicely at him, and he finally moved over.

The Bruce Taxis are out and out track cars that are trailered and do their own thing. I have no problem with that as long as they do not intimidate other drivers, and I now enjoy the fact that I can overtake them, whereas in N1 TUT I could not.

tut

[n1tut]

ps not sure why I am getting this sickly green background colour to my posts.

Can I change it to white?

tut

[Alexx]

Not to sure what all the fuss is about here, maybe I was just lucky and missed all the bad driving. I am the guy in the Blue 350Z Roadster and completed 72 laps on the day and besides a few lads who were a bit slow at times in moving over I thought the standard off driving was relatively good and although there was some aggression shown at times, I thought that on the whole it was a very safe track event.
I can understand if some unexperienced drivers do get intimidated in this type of environment, but the only way to overcome that is to get out there and gain some confidence.
The Bruce taxis were not a danger to anyone and certainly did not intimidate me and the pack of Elises, although close together were behaving okay.

The Track Marshalls had a relatively quite afternoon and if they had felt that there was a requirment for a black flag, then I can assure you they would have used it as they take no nonsense from idiot drivers.

The briefing ran very slightly late due to the late arrival of drivers signing on, but hey, what difference does that make as usually you never use up the whole three hours track time any way.

I was using the day as a shakedown also, and on the day had no issues with any other drivers.

Perhaps around 50 entries is a bit much tho' and bordering on the greedy side.

Just my opinion.

Cheers,

Alex.

[gdr]

I was not there, but sounds like a typical HM. The more you do the less intimidating it gets. Most unpleasant experience is getting stuck in a line of slightly slower cars then getting swamped by the faster cars as you are trying to get past the slower ones. If you don't have the straight line grunt to clear the traffic jam quickly, best to just do a pit drive through and get back out onto clear track. Amazing how the track can go quiet and you get loads of enjoyable laps in relative peace.

[BrianJ]

Alexx said:

The Bruce taxis were not a danger to anyone and certainly did not intimidate me and the pack of Elises, although close together were behaving okay.

Perhaps around 50 entries is a bit much tho' and bordering on the greedy side.

Cheers,

Alex.

Agree with the above - but there were also just a handful of people who I reckon were more of a danger to themselves and others than is usual at Hot Marques - Knockhill need to take account of that.

[ASBO]

BrianJ said:

Alexx said:

The Bruce taxis were not a danger to anyone and certainly did not intimidate me and the pack of Elises, although close together were behaving okay.

Perhaps around 50 entries is a bit much tho' and bordering on the greedy side.

Cheers,

Alex.

Agree with the above - but there were also just a handful of people who I reckon were more of a danger to themselves and others than is usual at Hot Marques - Knockhill need to take account of that.

My point exactly.

I was very impressed with the pace of the BT cars and have enjoyed watching the footage of them on Youtube. However, neither they, the elises nor the other 40 cars on track were a problem. As D_T_W pointed out, it was the pack of 3/4 Standardish Mitsi' Evos that were causing the problem with one particular idiot in a grey MR causing the most danger.

Don't get me wrong, I am no stranger to the track and I would encourage people to go as fast as possible, but only if they can do it safely. IMO the afforementioned goons were not only a danger to others, but to themselves too. I also note that a yellow Evo 8 crashed out. Was this one of their ilk?

[AMD87]

D_T_W said:

It wasn't the Bruce Taxi Evo's that were the dheads, it was the group of 4 Evo's (from memory 3 dark grey, 1 silver, all later model Evo 7/8 MR's) that were. The Bruce Taxi guys were good, and by christ they were quick, but the Neds with the MR's were just driving like tools all day and hassling anybody they came across. The Elises were running close together, but they were driving with consideration of others on the track.

At the end of the day it is a track day, but if they want to drive like a knob go to a hot hatch day.

ah ok i know who you mean now,no idea who they were,never seen them at a HM or SIDC or dread/star trackday before, only other one i recognized was one of the guys that was down with the yellow evo (spent most of the time in the pits as well with a problem) i think they had upgraded turbos over the winter and i think that was the first time out for them.only evos i noticed out on the track was the 2 6's so we didnt get a run with the new evos.

n1tut said:

The biggest laugh was the blue Scooby with no decals. He just carried on around on the left hand line with three of us behind him, with every blue flag on the circuit being waved at him. Made no difference to him, so after two laps I pulled alongside him on the right hand side on the pit straight and waved nicely at him, and he finally moved over.

that really was a joke,on the first session he had around 6-8 cars stuck behind him then going up the pit straight modena scotland just overtook everyone on the right hand side

n1tut said:

I now enjoy the fact that I can overtake them, whereas in N1 TUT I could not.

tut

just wait till they get thier 7 back

[Steve Gill]

Interesting topic, I was there in my white CSL and I found some of the evo's were a bit of a pain as I couldn't get past them but nonetheless I enjoyed the laps particularly some close lapping with the grey evo and a sierra cosworth. The buggies were amusing, one slipstreamed me up the main straight, but again there was a reluctance to let people past, which I cannot understand (at least once I pulled into the pits and straight through, to let traffic clear).

Did anyone find my driving agressive? I was more confident than previous trips to Knockhill but if someone faster was behind I think I moved over as quickly as I could.