280 running problem

[RichChef]

Hi all,

My car seems to have developed a fault while i've been fixing other things, I'm close to the point of MOTing it after 7 years off the road and now it will not run for more that about 7-8 mins (if its really cold!). Issue started after i moved house, i wired in the rev counter the wrong way round in the hurry to get the car out of the garage it was in (since fixed, tho i have a slight offset of 1200 rpm )

Issue seems to be similar to Hallies, but mine runs fine for a number of minutes, then dies slowly over a minute or so... once its dead the car will only fire when the ignition is turned on, as soon as it goes back to the running position it dies out. If left alone until its cooled down (10-15 mins) then i can go through the whole process again.

So far I've swapped the warm up regulator, air axillary device (had spares), swapped the Relay discussed in Hallies thread... no luck with any of these. Engine revs fine up until it cuts out.

Also, separate issue: Is there a difference between the temperature sender with the red plastic and the black plastic rings? the water temp seems to go through the roof since i changed it, certain its not as hot as it thinks as there is not a load of burst water pipes occurring

Any help gratefully received, really wanna get it one the road this year for some

[jeff m2]

This could be a thousand things as a CIS car does not like to sit for that long.
Even with stabaliser in the gas the Fuel distributor can still gum up.

I'm not going to guess, I think you have to approach this in a methodical manner.
starting with checking fuel pressure at the regulater and checking spark at start and run. Clean the Aux air, change the fuel filter. Add a top quality fuel adative, then reassess. (fresh gas obviously)

[mrzigazaga]

Hi Mate..Firstly the temperature sender is a bugger to replace, Ideally you have to match the sender to whatever gauges you have..If you have stewart warner gauges then you will have great difficulty in finding the right one if at all...As i found out..My temperature gauge settles on 210 but is only around 84-85..As for the running...The hot start issues i had were related to the metering head losing fuel pressure as the thin metal plate in between it had failed,Also the accumulator was leaking fuel from the breather at the back of it..The accumulator has two pipes going into the front..one in and one out..On the rear of it there is an air breather and if this is leaking fuel then you will also loose pressure, If this is leaking you can bypass the accumulator by joining the two front pipes with a copper or stainless straight coupling and some jubilee clips then cap off the breather with a bolt and a jubilee clip making sure they dont leak..When did you last change the bulkhead fuel filter?..The ignition thing does sound a bit familiar to when mine was playing up and it was a wiring fault under the dash..Try tracing the ignition wires..(Red/White & Thick brown)..to see if there are any connections on them that are loose or bad fitting,Or where they go into the relay board on the back..Check your coil also..Is it getting unusually hot?..It sounds like a culmination of an electrical fault and fuel starvation although mine was initially fuel..Is you fuel pump operating ok..Can you take the metering head plug off..(Green)..and just turn on your ignition without cranking to see if you can hear a constant buzz of your pump..Check engine earth strap..Sometimes if wire has a break it can expand with the heat of the engine causing a short and then contract when the engine has cooled down..It does sound familiar though..I will have another think to see if i can remember anything else that was causing it..Ziga

Edited by mrzigazaga on Saturday 3rd March 20:50

[RCK974X]

That's a good list from Zig, I can't think of anything else to add, apart from saying the ususal stuff like "Go through everything methodically and double check"..... Yeah, Yeah, we all know.

A pain in the Arse, but it has to be done....


As far as I know there are two different Ford temp senders, and the SW sender is different again.

If you're desparate, I *think* that a Triumph 2000 Mk1 sender might work with a SW guage, but not sure. I know that sender fits the 2.8 ally water elbow.

(That's from comparing things like Ford and Smiths guages etc. from my kit car days. The SW guages seem to be calibrated more closely to the Smiths standard, but I can't say for sure)

Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 3rd March 21:10

[tvr-280i]

Similar thing with a Jensen I owned. It was the fuel pump that would quit after a short run time. After a cool off time of 15-20 min. it would restart. It could be worth checking, good luck.

[RichChef]

Thanks for the replies guys, especially Mr. Zig

On the gauges front I have VDO ('85 car so series 2ish). I think i'll swap the two senders that i have over before i start doing any thing else, can't hurt

Fuel - late '11 vintage, should still be okay. I have some additives so may try and put some more in if i can find the petrol cans (overhead storage in the garage was a good idea until you can't get the car out!)
Fuel filter - one now ordered. The one on there looks 'new' but may as well change it.

Today's plan of action:
1 - general earth checking
2 - check accumulator
3 - check fuel pumps actions
4 - check coil temp (how hot is unusually hot?)
5 - change sender unit

If i get chance i might check the wiring behind the dash, i have a spare Rev gauge which i could fit at the same time (should be calibrated).

cheers,
Rich

[mrzigazaga]

RichChef said:

4 - check coil temp (how hot is unusually hot?)

Hi Mate..The coil does have a heat soak and will and does get quite hot,Especially being near the engine..After time the heat insulation can break down and the coil can fail when it gets too hot or when the engine is hot..You can test it by wrapping an ice pack around it once it has stalled and see if cooling the coil helps to re-start it..Or if it has been on there for a long time it might be worth changing anyway..I should imagine if you can only put your hand on it for no more than 3-4 seconds then its probably getting too hot..When it stalls pull the coil lead off at the distributor and rest it near to something it can spark off of and crank the engine..Have you got a healty blue spark or is it an orangey colour..(weak)?

1.When you crank it from cold does it start straight away?..Or does it take 4-5 attempts.
2.Does it cut out once it has got to around normal operating temperature?
3.When it dies is it still running on all cylinders?
4.Is there any misfiring or strong smells of petrol..i:e..Engine bay or down the left hand rear side of the car, Just past the passenger door..Not near the boot as there is a breather there that can cause petrol smells.

Unfortunately the V6 colognes can be a nightmare to diagnose as there are a number of things that could cause this issue..It could be an ignition module..Thermotime switch..AAD not closing..You can test it by removing it or test the spare with a heat gun, Gently warm up the diaphram to see if its closing and then put it in the fridge to see if it opens..Its worth cleaning with some carb cleaner and a cotton bud..Leaking accumulator..Control plunger in the metering head sticking..The metering head plate rusted and leaking..WUR/Pressure reg..Clogged fuel line or filter..Rust in the system caused by a rusty fuel tank..
You say its been sat for 7 years..Is this without being started in that time as the metering head would be suspect after a long time of not being used..Unfortunately also spare ones that people have laying around will almost suffer from the same problem and a refueb of it is the only answer..Hopefully it wont be this but its worth considering..Mine had the very same issue and after changing almost everything..Pump..Filter..Tank..Injectors..Ignition module..AAD..WUR..Coil..Plugs and leads..Relays and fuses..It still did the same thing....Eventually i had the metering head refurbed which was part of the problem but then i found the accumulator was leaking..They have a diaphram inside and after a few minutes of the fuel pressure building up the fuel was getting passed and leaking out of the rear end of it so i was losing fuel pressure..Its difficult to actually point the finger at either one of them but they both could of been the main culprits..Although it seems you may have an electrical issue as described by your ignition antics which could then point to relays and/or the wiring to it, If you can follow the red/white and the big brown wire from the ignition switch onto the back of the relay board and check all the points it enters, Its a good idea to have a few relays spare just to try the main ones..i:e Fuel pump and ignition..A loose or ill fitting wire under the dash running from the ignition switch plug..(Mate "n" lock)..The ignition switch could be failing although unlikely but possible..The coil could be failing..Plug leads broken inside and expanding with the heat, This is also possible with numerous other wires..Sorry i cant be more precise but hopefully somewhere in all of this is the answer..My bets are on the metering head and accumulator...You could always test your injectors one at a time but be careful as always with petrol....You can access them although i took my plenum off as i have big monkey paws..Ideally have your fuel pump on ignition instead of crank..(Green plug off on metering head) and hold each one over a large jar or bucket..You might need someone to crank it for a couple of seconds while you monitor the injectors..They should all spray evenly..If half do and the other half dont then you most certainly have a fuel pressure issue..Metering head or accumulator..Mine ran on 5 cylinders for ages all because the metering head had failed and couldnt supply even pressure to all of the injectors..If you were a bit closer i would pop over and have a look but i hope this info helps..Good luck..Ziga

[RichChef]

Temp sender changed, will fire it up and check the coil condition shortly.


Have noticed a petrol smell in engine bay, tho since I fixed the idle speed that has mostly gone. Not noticed it by the pump.

Generally when the engine is running It's good, no missfire or juddering until it dies out.
Aad seems to work as you can see the vacum change over time. I'll test the spare in the oven when the missues goes away this week

P.s. there's snow on the way, just had an hour of it here

[RichChef]

Update on testing yesterday:

Cranked from cold it does take a couple of goes or the right boot to get it going. For a car of this vintage i assumed that is normal, it takes less if i have been running it daily (i.e. when its not -1 outside and the sun is still out when i get home from work . The coil does not get hot, infact it seems to be quite cold. Spark is blue but is not the bluse'ist i've seen. Nothing seems to change behaviour in the pump/accumulator area, however i have not been able this 'green plug' on the metering head so no test of the pump (i have 4 plugs in that area, none are green and having tried each non gives the desired effect!). I can however state confidently that the pump is still trying as the car dies, you can here it as the engine cuts out briefly.

I'll check the wiring behind the dash hate taking that off, always have to pay a toll in hand skin

Cheers Zig.

Rich

[mrzigazaga]

Hi Mate..The fuel accumulator could be leaking and you wont know it as the fuel could be travelling up the breather pipe as mine did..First clamp the pipe at the rear of the unit,Remove the green plug.(in pic) and turn on the ignition without cranking..If it is leaking then fuel will drip from it..If you cant clamp it the undo the jubilee..Take off the pipe..Remove the green plug from the left hand side of the metering head which is pictured just below the rubber cap and next to the two black plugs from the ignition module then turn ignition on..Dont crank..Look to see if any petrol is coming out of the rear outlet..It should ONLY be air..If this is the case clamp the inlet and outlet pipes at the front of the unit and then remove the accumulator..Then join the two together with a stainless steel coupling, I think the OD of the coupling is 10mm..I will confirm this in a bit..Then cap the breather off with a bolt and a jubilee clip..I think that one is 6mm..Again i will get back to you on that one..I do recall this being the last culprit causing my issues..It was really deflating after i had the metering head refurbed but massive elation when i found it was the accumulator causing the problem as well..This would be a good thing to check..If it is ok then try clamping the return fuel line on the metering head..Not the 6mm plastic ones..I think its on the radiator side of the metering head..If the car starts quicker..Runs when hot..Turns off and restarts then this most certainly is the metering head failing...Cheers..Ziga

[RichChef]

Hi Zig,

lovin the tidy clean look of your engine bay, thats a target to work towards i think

i see your green plug, don't see mine shall have another look tomorrow when hopefully i will not get back from work at a stupid time! its like they don't know i want to be in the garage fixing the car

i'll also have a think about what i have that can be used as a make shift clamp, i have a number of destructive options but should leave them alone for the moment

cheers,
Rich

[mrzigazaga]

RichChef said:

i have a number of destructive options

...Sounds like me on occasions!!..Holesaw comes to mind..If you can clamp the rear pipe of the accumulator or undo it for now and either locate the plug and pull it off and turn on igniton or crank the engine a few times...Ideally you want it to build up a bit of pressure so locating the green plug would be better..If you have one..I think you should have....You wouldnt believe the size of the spring inside the accumulator..Cheers..Ziga

PS:Thanks for the compliment...Im just painting an inlet manifold that i had sand blasted today as mine has three cross threaded bolts on the rocker covers on the inlet side..Also got a polished plenum to go on...Will post it up when done..

[adam quantrill]

If it runs for 7 minutes then just drive really fast for 7 minutes, park up and you're at your destination! If it's just a lack of use issue you will find that the 7 minutes will extend to 8, 9, 10 and so on with more use....