Aftermarket ECU's..Emerald...Conversion 280i
Discussion
Hi peeps..Im all ears at the moment so all comments and suggestions appreciated..I have been forward thinking and wondering if the distributor that i got with the supercharger kit is going to be adequate if i want to run full boost on the supercharger..I have been conversing with a guy from Emerald and he has explained that there are aftermarket ECU's..Map sensor..And various other components to facilitate timing and fuelling..He converted a porsche 924 and assured me that it gave him more power and better fuel consumption..(Although im not too bothered as regards to fuel economy)..However it does mean ripping out the old "K-jetronic" system and changing it from Mfi to EFi..Would this be a wise move albeit costly..Cheers..Ziga
Mark,
IF you can find one, the Granny Scorpio had EEC-IV and has ALL the bits you need to go to a fully digital system. It came with a TFI dizzy which is fixed (no advance, no vac) and 6 'standard' profile Bosch injectors, so you can swop for bigger ones.
Inlet Manifold is different, with twin throttle and twin vane (flapper) meters, so you would have to do some plumbing to get a large single one (like the V8 wedges), but it's all doable.
On the other hand you could just go digital ignition timing by fitting just the dizzy, which I'm pretty sure won't foul the existing 'K' manifold (not totally sure)
IF you can find one, the Granny Scorpio had EEC-IV and has ALL the bits you need to go to a fully digital system. It came with a TFI dizzy which is fixed (no advance, no vac) and 6 'standard' profile Bosch injectors, so you can swop for bigger ones.
Inlet Manifold is different, with twin throttle and twin vane (flapper) meters, so you would have to do some plumbing to get a large single one (like the V8 wedges), but it's all doable.
On the other hand you could just go digital ignition timing by fitting just the dizzy, which I'm pretty sure won't foul the existing 'K' manifold (not totally sure)
Thanks Andy...I will look into it, The guy from emerald said that i would need a fuel rail..Throttle pot...Pressure regulator...injectors...Mappable ECU with all the other gumph..I could also add traction and launch control...It all sounds very complicated and expensive but im looking at the long term investment..If its needed...I know that the turbo conversions have the similar dizzy to what came with the blower kit but the boost limits are set within boundaries..And i would like to push them a little now and then..Funny enough i was looking for a twin plenum manifold a little while back but couldnt find any..Ill do another search...Cheers...Ziga
Ziga
Mine runs emerald, the guys there know what they are talking about, I ended up back there in the summer after some new ht leads were causing a problem which no one else could sort an hour over there and I had. A new car again. Matt the previous owner of my wedge had the emerald put on back in about 2004, with Karl working some magic, and I know matt changed the set up many times, but he could as he had the ability! that was when he went from 350 to 4 ltr with what is now my wedge. i had a remap a couple or so years back when I went from the 4.0 to the 4.6, always ran spot on until I messed it up with the magnicor leads not being put in right, that's when they sorted it again this year.
You would be putting your car in good hands there, IMHO.
Mine runs emerald, the guys there know what they are talking about, I ended up back there in the summer after some new ht leads were causing a problem which no one else could sort an hour over there and I had. A new car again. Matt the previous owner of my wedge had the emerald put on back in about 2004, with Karl working some magic, and I know matt changed the set up many times, but he could as he had the ability! that was when he went from 350 to 4 ltr with what is now my wedge. i had a remap a couple or so years back when I went from the 4.0 to the 4.6, always ran spot on until I messed it up with the magnicor leads not being put in right, that's when they sorted it again this year.
You would be putting your car in good hands there, IMHO.
mrzigazaga said:
Thanks Andy...I will look into it, The guy from emerald said that i would need a fuel rail..Throttle pot...Pressure regulator...injectors...Mappable ECU with all the other gumph..I could also add traction and launch control...It all sounds very complicated and expensive but im looking at the long term investment..If its needed...I know that the turbo conversions have the similar dizzy to what came with the blower kit but the boost limits are set within boundaries..And i would like to push them a little now and then..Funny enough i was looking for a twin plenum manifold a little while back but couldnt find any..Ill do another search...Cheers...Ziga
Yep, the 2.8 Scorpio (or parts) had all that stuff. Problem is Ford made them for only about one year, so not very common. Also had an early type EEC-IV with std connector, so the Emerald guys should be able to deal with that easily. There may be an engine pic on the web somewhere. The the Emerald ECU (or whatever) can control all aspects of boost timing, injection.... will be wonderful ! As far as I know, you CANNOT use a 2.9 manifold as the inlet ports are different.
Edited by RCK974X on Friday 9th November 08:08
Edited by RCK974X on Friday 9th November 08:10
the banger racers use the 2.9 with a 2.8 carb inlet, so it should work the other way if you want to fit the 2.9 inlet. but then why not fit the complete 2.9 lump in that case 
how about using what you have currently for the intake, and getting a megajolt ignition system? can then use a coil pack and use the current distributor as the pickup for timing, and then the timing can be set to whatever it needs to be when mapped
how about using what you have currently for the intake, and getting a megajolt ignition system? can then use a coil pack and use the current distributor as the pickup for timing, and then the timing can be set to whatever it needs to be when mapped
mk2 24v said:
the banger racers use the 2.9 with a 2.8 carb inlet, so it should work the other way if you want to fit the 2.9 inlet. but then why not fit the complete 2.9 lump in that case
That's interesting, I thought they were different. In that case a digital 2.8 system should be MUCH easier to organize !
pretty sure the 2.9 dizzy is the same....
The only reason I can see for not using a 2.9 on early wedges is whether you can squeeze the exhaust in for that third port... but if you can get a 24v in, then it must be OK....
Edited by RCK974X on Friday 9th November 16:59
mrzigazaga said:
Hi peeps..Im all ears at the moment so all comments and suggestions appreciated..I have been forward thinking and wondering if the distributor that i got with the supercharger kit is going to be adequate if i want to run full boost on the supercharger..I have been conversing with a guy from Emerald and he has explained that there are aftermarket ECU's..Map sensor..And various other components to facilitate timing and fuelling..He converted a porsche 924 and assured me that it gave him more power and better fuel consumption..(Although im not too bothered as regards to fuel economy)..However it does mean ripping out the old "K-jetronic" system and changing it from Mfi to EFi..Would this be a wise move albeit costly..Cheers..Ziga
Hi Zig, you are right to look at improving the ignition system.At best the distributor will be significant hindrance to getting the full potential from the blower installation.
AT WORSE A DISTRIBUTOR BASED IGNITION SYSTEM WILL EVENTUALLY DESTROY YOUR SUPERCHARGED ENGINE.
You need very accurate ignition control with forced induction and the distributor just isn't going to give you that.
Before we can get to grips with forced induction we need to understand what's going on in a normally aspirated engine.
There are three key rules that govern the requirements of an effective ignition system:
1) Petrol has a consistent fixed rate of burn governed by it's chemical make up
2) The peak cylinder pressure offering the maximum mechanical leverage from the burning fuel is enjoyed at roughly 15 degrees after the piston has reached it's highest point, known as "Top Dead Centre" or TDC
So 15* ATDC (After Top Dead Centre)
3) Because the burn rate is fixed and you need the peak cylinder pressure at 15 degrees after TDC, you will need to initiate the burn earlier & earlier in the cycle (Before Top Dead Centre) as the engine speed increases.
A distributor does a fairly respectable job of initiating the burn earlier & earlier, because being geared to the cam it responds directly to engine speed.
All this is fine until your compressor starts to introduce the change of air & fuel above atmospheric pressure, when essentially you change these rules & the very conditions the distributor was designed to work with.
As the engine starts to receive boost the rate the fuel burns at also increases, so you no longer have a fixed situation predominately governed by engine speed.
As the boost increases you need to initiate the combustion of the faster burning air/fuel mixture later & later compared with a normally aspirated engine.
A strong word of warning at this point
IF YOU FAIL TO INITIATE COMBUSTION THE ENGINE WILL TAKE CARE OF THIS JOB ALL ON IT'S OWN
As the piston rises in the bore, compression of the air fuel mixture creates a lot of heat, think about how hot the air from a bicycle pump gets if you put your thumb over the end of it.
This heat quickly builds to the extent that it initiates the burn all on it's own, this is not good at all as the uncontrolled burn starts at different points within the combustion chamber.
Two or more flame fronts are created at the same time, these converge with catastrophic consequences.
This condition is known correctly as detonation, you may know it as pinking (or ping in the US), detonation will burn holes the crowns of your pistons, pit your valve faces and ultimately destroy the roof of your combustion chamber.
Detonation is rapid and devastating, so you can see why you need to be in control of initiating combustion before the heat generated by compression does it for you.
Remember your supercharger is just a compressor, so it's also heating the charge just like our bicycle pump example or the piston rising in the bore.
With early forced induction engines still burdened with a distributor the later & later initiation of burn was achieved using a vacuum module that was mechanically connected to the base plate of said distributor.
This vacuum retard module is typically bigger than your vacuum advance, it's essentially the same thing just working in reverse.
This set up is at odds with how the distributor is designed to work, as engine speed rises the distributor naturally tries to initiate burn earlier yet the vacuum retard module tries to make it happen later & later because the supercharger increases boost & heat in direct proportion to the increase in engine speed.
The distributor & vacuum retard module end up fighting each other, as such it is a very compromised design and was quickly ditched in favour of more sophisticated ignition systems.
It's also very a very dangerous set up, for example should the diaphragm in the vacuum retard module fail, the distributor will win the fight and detonation will quickly destroy your engine.
In summary running a distributor with vacuum retard is a bit like playing Russian Roulette with your engine.
I strongly recommend you put the distributor in a museum where it belongs, replace it with a mappable waisted spark system such as MegaJolt & the like that monitor your boost pressures and change the point of burn very accurately using electronics.
This completely eliminates the crude "push me pull me" mechanical distributor & vacuum module system, it will put the initiation of burn safely & reliably back in your control and ensure your new supercharged engine has reasonable longevity.
Good luck with it mate and remember this.
A blow job done well is a glorious thing, a blow job done badly can be very messy
As you didn't explicitly mention it, it's worth stating that as the combustion chamber pressure is increased, the breakdown voltage of the spark gap increases too. So you need a stronger coil than usual (or, at least, a decent one as opposed to one that just about works) to overcome this effect.
hallsie said:
Ahhh, I can see that the monkey grinder has got the chimp involved!!
Stu
Stu
Have a look at this Zig:
http://www.lloydspecialistdevelopments.co.uk/canem...
It's exactly what you need to turn your blower motor from zero..... to hero
I did have a look at my workshop manual photos and sure enough, the 2.9 heads do look very very similar to the 2.8 for the inlet side of things.... So I guess the 2.9 induction setup is certainly more common than the 2.8 EFI one, so use what bits you can find.
As to Chimp's comments, agree that digital control is safest, but let's not forget there are a lot of supercharged and turbocharged 'old type' dizzy setups running around happily without problems....so I think that warning is a bit over the top, unless you're running at high boost.
Anyway, there are EEC-IV boxes for turbocharged setups, but a custom setup (emerald etc.) is probably the best way to go. But not cheap !
As to Chimp's comments, agree that digital control is safest, but let's not forget there are a lot of supercharged and turbocharged 'old type' dizzy setups running around happily without problems....so I think that warning is a bit over the top, unless you're running at high boost.
Anyway, there are EEC-IV boxes for turbocharged setups, but a custom setup (emerald etc.) is probably the best way to go. But not cheap !
adam quantrill said:
As you didn't explicitly mention it, it's worth stating that as the combustion chamber pressure is increased, the breakdown voltage of the spark gap increases too. So you need a stronger coil than usual (or, at least, a decent one as opposed to one that just about works) to overcome this effect.
Quite right Adam, I thought about covering this but at the end of the day there are only so many words I can type in one response
I proposed Zig goes with a mappable waisted spark system, this would run coil packs.
By default the coil packs would deliver the greater voltage to spark required on a forced induction application.
The coil packs also give vastly superior refresh rates which typically translates to more torque at higher RPMs.
Add all that to the ability for the advance & retard characteristics to be altered based on a number of different inputs (boost, engine speed, coolant temperature ect) & you have yourself a huge leap forward on the ignition side.
If like me you're naturally aspirated, ditching the dizzy for 3D ignition control is a no brainer .
If you go forced induction I would say the benefits are so great it's close to essential.
Hi zig, i think a tip top supercharged engine build needs a modern ecu to keep everything running sweetly and safely. My wedge is running a megasquirt system as you know and since i've had it professionally refitted and mapped it really is spot on.
My advice, for what its worth would be to speak to Dale at http://baileyperformance.co.uk/ He knows megasquirt and superchargers inside out, he runs a supercharged RV8 Sierra cossie which he built himself. His prices are really cheap too, probabley half the cost of an emerald system. He did loads of extra work on my wedge that he didn't need to but he wasn't satisfied with the standard of the original fitment, so he sorted it, at no extra cost to me.
I know its a bit of a way from your place, but the savings should make it worth while.
PM me if you want any more info,
Steve.
My advice, for what its worth would be to speak to Dale at http://baileyperformance.co.uk/ He knows megasquirt and superchargers inside out, he runs a supercharged RV8 Sierra cossie which he built himself. His prices are really cheap too, probabley half the cost of an emerald system. He did loads of extra work on my wedge that he didn't need to but he wasn't satisfied with the standard of the original fitment, so he sorted it, at no extra cost to me.
I know its a bit of a way from your place, but the savings should make it worth while.
PM me if you want any more info,
Steve.
ChimpofDarkness said:
..snip..
Add all that to the ability for the advance & retard characteristics to be altered based on a number of different inputs (boost, engine speed, coolant temperature ect) & you have yourself a huge leap forward on the ignition side.
If like me you're naturally aspirated, ditching the dizzy for 3D ignition control is a no brainer .
If you go forced induction I would say the benefits are so great it's close to essential.
I definitely won't argue with this at all - agree completely. There's no way the old mechanical setups get remotely close to proper digital engine management, boosted or not. Add all that to the ability for the advance & retard characteristics to be altered based on a number of different inputs (boost, engine speed, coolant temperature ect) & you have yourself a huge leap forward on the ignition side.
If like me you're naturally aspirated, ditching the dizzy for 3D ignition control is a no brainer .
If you go forced induction I would say the benefits are so great it's close to essential.
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