johns wedge rebuild

[KKson]

Number 7 said:

Penelope, you see to be very knowledgeable about several different TVR models. Why don't you introduce yourself, and your TVR (s)?. You'll find a welcome in the Wedge world, especially if you have one

I think I asked a similar question on another thread the other day. Always keen to know who is running what with pukka hands on experience.

[RCK974X]

Crimping .... Yes indeed, some strong arguments.

I reckon that when most DIY rebuilders think of the term "crimp connectors" they think of the ones in the local car shop (Halfords etc) and that they can crimp them with pliers etc. !! WRONG !!


I did a formal wiring apprenticeship and training, a long time ago. This is what I learned.....

PROPER crimping tools are expensive, and they apply FAR more pressure than a pair of pliers can, far more than the cheap DIY hand crimp tools. For example - try pulling the wire out of any spade or terminal in a manufactured vehicle loom. The wire will most likely break first... It's pretty much impossible to get to this standard at home in your garage/shed.

When I did my apprenticeship, we used hydraulic tools, powered by a foot pump, to do even the 1/4 inch spades. Now THAT produced proper crimps. With a copper/brass connectors, you can get enough pressure to actually cold weld the wire to the end piece. (this doesn't happen with modern aluminium connectors - different metals).

Soldering
Problem with soldering is that it tends to make the wire brittle (the alloying process, solder-copper does this). So not good where there is vibration. But if you heat shrink the wire, or use a decent plastic shroud it will support the wire to reduce vibration. And everything must be clean to get a good joint. Over time, solder joints tend to corrode/oxidise as well, and can crack with heat cycling etc. Hence why the Lucas injection units need to be resoldered after 30 odd years...

So is crimping better than soldering ? YES, in a commercial environment, assuming proper crimping equipment. By a lot. It lasts longer, is more durable, doesn't corrode as fast, and is lower resistance (= carries more current)

At home, your DIY loom ? Not so clear cut. If you can solder, it's probably better than trying to crimp with a cheap tool, but of course you can't solder to aluminium, so you need to buy brass or copper ends. And you need to make sure soldered wires are supported so they don't break. You can do a very neat job this way, armed with heat shrink and cable ties, and brass or tinned connectors (spades, eyelets etc). I've done several soldered looms in kits and rebuilds, and never had a problem in over 25 years, but then I was taught how to do it properly, both solder and crimp.

And I have to agree, most of the crimp connectors and tools you see in shops are not of professional standard - go and look at Radiospares and compare.... If you decide to go the crimping route, make sure you get a professional crimping tool - and they are NOT cheap !

That's my 2c worth anyway....

Edited by RCK974X on Thursday 2nd March 20:09

[pk500]

Number 7 said:

Penelope, you see to be very knowledgeable about several different TVR models. Why don't you introduce yourself, and your TVR (s)?. You'll find a welcome in the Wedge world, especially if you have one

A lada owner is my guess

Edited by pk500 on Friday 3rd March 07:29

[Convert]

pk500 said:

A lady owner is my guess

Or even a lady garden...

[mk1fan]

Plenty of factory crimped terminals on my VW and BMW.

[Transmitter Man]

RCK974X said:

Crimping .... Yes indeed, some strong arguments.

I reckon that when most DIY rebuilders think of the term "crimp connectors" they think of the ones in the local car shop (Halfords etc) and that they can crimp them with pliers etc. !! WRONG !!


I did a formal wiring apprenticeship and training, a long time ago. This is what I learned.....

PROPER crimping tools are expensive, and they apply FAR more pressure than a pair of pliers can, far more than the cheap DIY hand crimp tools. For example - try pulling the wire out of any spade or terminal in a manufactured vehicle loom. The wire will most likely break first... It's pretty much impossible to get to this standard at home in your garage/shed.

When I did my apprenticeship, we used hydraulic tools, powered by a foot pump, to do even the 1/4 inch spades. Now THAT produced proper crimps. With a copper/brass connectors, you can get enough pressure to actually cold weld the wire to the end piece. (this doesn't happen with modern aluminium connectors - different metals).

Soldering
Problem with soldering is that it tends to make the wire brittle (the alloying process, solder-copper does this). So not good where there is vibration. But if you heat shrink the wire, or use a decent plastic shroud it will support the wire to reduce vibration. And everything must be clean to get a good joint. Over time, solder joints tend to corrode/oxidise as well, and can crack with heat cycling etc. Hence why the Lucas injection units need to be resoldered after 30 odd years...

So is crimping better than soldering ? YES, in a commercial environment, assuming proper crimping equipment. By a lot. It lasts longer, is more durable, doesn't corrode as fast, and is lower resistance (= carries more current)

At home, your DIY loom ? Not so clear cut. If you can solder, it's probably better than trying to crimp with a cheap tool, but of course you can't solder to aluminium, so you need to buy brass or copper ends. And you need to make sure soldered wires are supported so they don't break. You can do a very neat job this way, armed with heat shrink and cable ties, and brass or tinned connectors (spades, eyelets etc). I've done several soldered looms in kits and rebuilds, and never had a problem in over 25 years, but then I was taught how to do it properly, both solder and crimp.

And I have to agree, most of the crimp connectors and tools you see in shops are not of professional standard - go and look at Radiospares and compare.... If you decide to go the crimping route, make sure you get a professional crimping tool - and they are NOT cheap !

That's my 2c worth anyway....

Edited by RCK974X on Thursday 2nd March 20:09

This is how I understood the advantages of crimping from my past experience in electronics although I was more involved in soldering onto pcb's than crimping wires.

I did once see the crisps that BT engineers used which were I believe impregnated with some kind of sealant which I think helped towards corrosion of the copper wires.

Commercial crimping tools are a 100% must have for sure.

Phil
420 SEAC

Edited by Transmitter Man on Saturday 4th March 12:04

[trev4]

I really think you guys who are passionate about how a piece of wire is connected should start your own thread and let the rest of us enjoy John's interesting posts about his wedge rebuild.

[stainless_steve]

trev4 said:

I really think you guys who are passionate about how a piece of wire is connected should start your own thread and let the rest of us enjoy John's interesting posts about his wedge rebuild.

[RCK974X]

trev4 said:

I really think you guys who are passionate about how a piece of wire is connected should start your own thread and let the rest of us enjoy John's interesting posts about his wedge rebuild.

Well that's nice.
After all, it's not that the wiring is very important.....is it ?
You don't need a reliable connection for the engine or fuel pump to work, any old garbage will do.
Twisted wire and insulation tape perhaps ?

Just stick with the cheap crimps and see how long your headlamp pods carry on working, or the fuel pump causes a fire.

OK. Fair enough. I won't post anymore, go enjoy the photos.

[Engineer1949]

final pictures done at last all going well had a couple of runs out this year but busy with the race car so limited time


john

DSCN2547 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2547 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2543 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2544 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2544 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2546 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2548 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2549 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2550 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2551 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2552 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2553 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2554 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2555 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

DSCN2360 by Brundall Motorsport, on Flickr

[mrzigazaga]

Looks good enough to eat...

[pk500]

Looking good

[440Interceptor]

RCK974X said:

trev4 said:

I really think you guys who are passionate about how a piece of wire is connected should start your own thread and let the rest of us enjoy John's interesting posts about his wedge rebuild.

Well that's nice.
After all, it's not that the wiring is very important.....is it ?
You don't need a reliable connection for the engine or fuel pump to work, any old garbage will do.
Twisted wire and insulation tape perhaps ?

Just stick with the cheap crimps and see how long your headlamp pods carry on working, or the fuel pump causes a fire.

OK. Fair enough. I won't post anymore, go enjoy the photos.

Andy, your post was very informative, I learned a lot, thanks.

[wooly350i]

Looks a top job, we can all dream of getting ours to that sort of accomplished build .

[KKson]

Satire - some people just don't get it.

[mrzigazaga]

........

[RCK974X]

I'll do it in pictures, as it may get through....

- THIS -



- needs one of THESE -


(116 quid.....)

and THIS



needs one of THESE



(66 quid)

Otherwise, it's only a matter of time before your pods (and everything else) STOPS WORKING !!

[Engineer1949]

penelope i have looked back at your posts seems your very good at advise which i am sure is well meant but no evidence of you actually doing anything whereas i get on a do it i have never critisised anybodys work as we all try to do our best for these amazing vehicles i think its time to give up on this one getting boring now plus you will never convince me that the way i have terminated my loom is incorrect as years of previous work with no issues sort of proves the point wouldnt you say


john

[pk500]

Engineer1949 said:

penelope i have looked back at your posts seems your very good at advise which i am sure is well meant but no evidence of you actually doing anything whereas i get on a do it i have never critisised anybodys work as we all try to do our best for these amazing vehicles i think its time to give up on this one getting boring now plus you will never convince me that the way i have terminated my loom is incorrect as years of previous work with no issues sort of proves the point wouldnt you say


john

On ya bike 🚴

[NickOrangeCars]

Penelope Stopit said:

You fool. Of course I am, I wouldn't be posting here if I wasn't here

Are you a Donald Trump supporter? as clearly you don't take a f**king hint, and or listen to experts who actually know what they are talking about, but in bizarre self belief while everyone actually hates you.