fuel pump power 85 wedge federal
Discussion
I am attempting to recondition a 85 (late84?) 280i. It has not run for the last 4 years. I have reconditioned the fuel system from the tanks to the input of the metering unit. It does not start. The fuel pump only has power with the ignition switch in the "start" position. If I hot wire the pump it runs but the engine still does not start. After a second or two the engine will gasp to a start for a second and quit. Wait a few minutes and it will do the same thing. The fuel accumulator also leaks at the screw head in the back. There is fuel under pressure at the metering unit though it is not known to be correct (80psi?). The engine run sensor relay actuates in the "start" mode and if manually closed the pump runs, it does not close in the ignition switch run position. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I am also looking for a reliable supplier for the accumulator in the USA. Most of the suppliers on the internet are "out of stock, no back orders". I have tried the original Bosch 0438170039 and the alternate 0438170010 part numbers. Bill at Dominion Spares has tried to help but does not have an accumulator in stock.
Thanks,
John
Thanks,
John
Hi...The starting issues could be the accumulator..If it is leaking from the breather at the back of the unit then the diaphragm has collapsed...You can by-pass the accumulator until you can get a new one..Not sure about the States but here in England i would use...
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
For anything K-Jetronic....Steve has helped me loads in the past as he really know the set up extremely well...Might be worth contacting him...Tell him that Mark recommended you.
A couple of pointers...
If the car has sat about for periods of non-starting then the problem could lay in either the metering head unit itself as the actuator/Plunger gets stuck once the petrol has evaporated...Sometimes its like glue.
Same applies with the WUR which is the fuel regulator...
Have you changed the bulkhead fuel filter?
The injectors could be gummed up!...
You can remove an injector to see if its spraying fuel into a jar...Obviously be very careful when handling fuel...And always have an appropriate extinguisher near-by.
Try also not to fracture any of the plastic fuel lines that go to the injectors from the metering head..They are not easy to replace.
Good luck and hope this helps...Cheers...Ziga
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
For anything K-Jetronic....Steve has helped me loads in the past as he really know the set up extremely well...Might be worth contacting him...Tell him that Mark recommended you.
A couple of pointers...
If the car has sat about for periods of non-starting then the problem could lay in either the metering head unit itself as the actuator/Plunger gets stuck once the petrol has evaporated...Sometimes its like glue.
Same applies with the WUR which is the fuel regulator...
Have you changed the bulkhead fuel filter?
The injectors could be gummed up!...
You can remove an injector to see if its spraying fuel into a jar...Obviously be very careful when handling fuel...And always have an appropriate extinguisher near-by.
Try also not to fracture any of the plastic fuel lines that go to the injectors from the metering head..They are not easy to replace.
Good luck and hope this helps...Cheers...Ziga
Ziga,
Thanks for the tips. We freed the actuator in the metering unit with carb cleaner as it was gummed up. Is the fuel regulator part of the metering unit? We tried to check for fuel at the injectors but failed as it looks like they could not be lifted out without removing the plenum. There is spray at the cold start injector on the plenum. We have installed a new fuel filter as well as an additional one between the swirl pot and the pump. Any thoughts as to why the pump does not run in the ignition switch run position? It seems like probably more than one problem.
Thanks again for your prompt response,
John
Thanks for the tips. We freed the actuator in the metering unit with carb cleaner as it was gummed up. Is the fuel regulator part of the metering unit? We tried to check for fuel at the injectors but failed as it looks like they could not be lifted out without removing the plenum. There is spray at the cold start injector on the plenum. We have installed a new fuel filter as well as an additional one between the swirl pot and the pump. Any thoughts as to why the pump does not run in the ignition switch run position? It seems like probably more than one problem.
Thanks again for your prompt response,
John
Hi mate...The US cars had a fuel relay i believe somewhere in the engine bay..There was a different set up on a couple of things which could be problematic and have the symptoms you describe...However i have no experience of that unfortunately having only owned UK spec Wedges....The WUR helps to provide more fuel when cold but it can have an effect on fuel pressure at the metering head if its faulty...But you need to see if there is fuel coming out of the injectors...
A couple of the injectors can be removed without removing the plenum..There is only a rectangle type plate with 2 x 8mm bolts that hold them in...However it might be worth getting them all cleaned, Removing the plenum and injectors is not a majorly difficult job but just buy good quality gaskets and always use some gasket seal/Hylomar...Its also worth changing the seals on the injectors..These parts are cheap so worth doing...
I would investigate the cut off relays as i think there are two on the US spec Wedges but unfortunately can't help with them...Ziga
A couple of the injectors can be removed without removing the plenum..There is only a rectangle type plate with 2 x 8mm bolts that hold them in...However it might be worth getting them all cleaned, Removing the plenum and injectors is not a majorly difficult job but just buy good quality gaskets and always use some gasket seal/Hylomar...Its also worth changing the seals on the injectors..These parts are cheap so worth doing...
I would investigate the cut off relays as i think there are two on the US spec Wedges but unfortunately can't help with them...Ziga
Just a backup to what Zig said - In case you are stuck for parts, the engine and related parts are actually off a European (Ford) Granada Mk2, although most of the setup is actually the same as the Euro Capri 2.8i.
I understand the Federal 2.8 had lower compression, so will likely have a different dizzy, and US regulations forced the use of those extra crash protection relays.
The metering head has pressure valves in the side (where the extra lump is, and fuel pipes connect), and the line pressure is varied by the unit attached to the front of the engine (warm-up regulator), which on Euro ones at least, also has a vacuum connection for full throttle enrichment.
If you're getting no decent fuel flow at injectors, something is gummed up somewhere...
with pump running (via, say a bridge wire), lifting the metering flap should give a good spray from injectors (CAREFUL of fire risk, spray is very fine !!). If not, then system probably needs cleaning out and/or bits replacing.
Don't know what you can find about, but there definitely was a carby US 2.8, just saying this as a last resort.....
but I understand some versions had different heads. (Euro cars also had carb versions)
As said elsewhere in other threads, the later Euro 2.8 setup had a relay which needed an ignition pulse to keep engine running, which is more like the US setup, I think.
I understand the Federal 2.8 had lower compression, so will likely have a different dizzy, and US regulations forced the use of those extra crash protection relays.
The metering head has pressure valves in the side (where the extra lump is, and fuel pipes connect), and the line pressure is varied by the unit attached to the front of the engine (warm-up regulator), which on Euro ones at least, also has a vacuum connection for full throttle enrichment.
If you're getting no decent fuel flow at injectors, something is gummed up somewhere...
with pump running (via, say a bridge wire), lifting the metering flap should give a good spray from injectors (CAREFUL of fire risk, spray is very fine !!). If not, then system probably needs cleaning out and/or bits replacing.
Don't know what you can find about, but there definitely was a carby US 2.8, just saying this as a last resort.....
but I understand some versions had different heads. (Euro cars also had carb versions)
As said elsewhere in other threads, the later Euro 2.8 setup had a relay which needed an ignition pulse to keep engine running, which is more like the US setup, I think.
Edited by RCK974X on Friday 4th July 01:32
Here's the accumulator your looking for on ebay in the UK :-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-Bosch-FUEL-ACCUMULATO...
Don't know if it's a good price or not.
Cheers,
Gavin
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-Bosch-FUEL-ACCUMULATO...
Don't know if it's a good price or not.
Cheers,
Gavin
Thanks for the tip on the UK ebay supplier , it would be about $170 USA dollars. I am waiting for confirmation of availability from a USA source on Monday and only $115 plus shipping. They may be cheap because they do not actually have any!!
Metering unit is definitely gummed up. I had cleaned the underside with carb cleaner and it seemed good but after sitting overnight it is stuck again. Looks like it will need to go to a specialist. I do not look forward to removing it, plus I'm probably going to need to clean the injectors as well. I think I will take my time and replace the accumulator then move on to the metering unit. Still concerned about the fuel pump electric control. My Vixen V8 (Buick 215 pre Rover 3.5)with a carburetor sure was a lot simpler to work on.
Thanks again you guys have been great!
John
Metering unit is definitely gummed up. I had cleaned the underside with carb cleaner and it seemed good but after sitting overnight it is stuck again. Looks like it will need to go to a specialist. I do not look forward to removing it, plus I'm probably going to need to clean the injectors as well. I think I will take my time and replace the accumulator then move on to the metering unit. Still concerned about the fuel pump electric control. My Vixen V8 (Buick 215 pre Rover 3.5)with a carburetor sure was a lot simpler to work on.
Thanks again you guys have been great!
John
Solely in the interests of keeping another wedge on the road.....
The 2.8 is a Cologne block, and in USA there were several 4 litre versions in Ford explorers and so on, as well as the odd 2.9, and (USA) 2.8, in carby and injection and also later electronic EEC-IV setups.
Any of these should fit to the 2.8 gearbox, and we know you can squeeze in a Cosworth 2.9, which has 6 exhaust ports, so the US 6 port versions should go in too...
The 4 litre block is taller, especially the OHC versions, so they may not fit under a wedge bonnet, but I know US had a pushrod 4 litre, which EU and other countries never did see.....I don't know if engine mounts are the same.
Not totally sure, but I think at least one of the US carb manifold versions will fit a K-series injection engine....
Just in case you are forced to go a different way, this might help....
The 2.8 is a Cologne block, and in USA there were several 4 litre versions in Ford explorers and so on, as well as the odd 2.9, and (USA) 2.8, in carby and injection and also later electronic EEC-IV setups.
Any of these should fit to the 2.8 gearbox, and we know you can squeeze in a Cosworth 2.9, which has 6 exhaust ports, so the US 6 port versions should go in too...
The 4 litre block is taller, especially the OHC versions, so they may not fit under a wedge bonnet, but I know US had a pushrod 4 litre, which EU and other countries never did see.....I don't know if engine mounts are the same.
Not totally sure, but I think at least one of the US carb manifold versions will fit a K-series injection engine....
Just in case you are forced to go a different way, this might help....
I think I will stick with the 2.8 for now. The car has only 24K miles so I hope the engine is sound and worth keeping original. I am still wading (no pun intended) through the fuel system. I have an accumulator on order from here in the US. I know the metering unit is gummed up and will work on it after I get the accumulator installed. I checked the engine run relay module and I think it is OK. Is it possible that the fuel pump only runs in the start position on the ignition switch or with the engine running? It would be nice if I do not actually have an electrical problem, just a gummed up fuel injection!
Thanks for the tips on alternate engines but I hope I do not have to use them.
Cheers,
John
Thanks for the tips on alternate engines but I hope I do not have to use them.
Cheers,
John
Yep, I did mean that as a last resort !! but at least it means there's probable options....
Pump....
On early Euro build 2.8 engines the fuel pump only runs when metering unit flap is lifted off its rest position, controlled by 2 relays. Later on (about '84 ?) Ford changed their models to a 'purple relay' setup, which was a little timer module+relay which runs the pump for 2 secs after last engine spark, and when ignition first turned on (so it very neatly primes the system).
I don't know for sure, but I understand that the US setup uses something like the timer module arrangement, but linked with a crash protection switch (also known as inertia switches in UK) as required by US regulations, and that unit is white or grey....
(early system has an electrical connector on the side of the metering head, later ones do not)
Pump....
On early Euro build 2.8 engines the fuel pump only runs when metering unit flap is lifted off its rest position, controlled by 2 relays. Later on (about '84 ?) Ford changed their models to a 'purple relay' setup, which was a little timer module+relay which runs the pump for 2 secs after last engine spark, and when ignition first turned on (so it very neatly primes the system).
I don't know for sure, but I understand that the US setup uses something like the timer module arrangement, but linked with a crash protection switch (also known as inertia switches in UK) as required by US regulations, and that unit is white or grey....
(early system has an electrical connector on the side of the metering head, later ones do not)
Car is a late 84 build # 1155. No switch on the metering head. Not aware of an inertia switch but there could be one. Car shows no sign of a collision except that the air dam is missing. It does have a O2 sensor and the ECU controlled metering unit modulator. Accumulator has been shipped so I expect it soon.
Cheers,
John
Cheers,
John
OK - In that case your wedge is almost certainly a V8 frame as well, which means a wider range of other engines will probably fit, as a last resort.
Sounds like you have the later types of 'K' injection, with O2 sensor and a small electronic module to trim the fuel mixture. A lot of VW and Audi models used this electronic setup, which may be another source of parts....
Don't think I'm advising getting rid of the 2.8, I'm just thinking of options available to keep the wedge roadworthy.
Sounds like you have the later types of 'K' injection, with O2 sensor and a small electronic module to trim the fuel mixture. A lot of VW and Audi models used this electronic setup, which may be another source of parts....
Don't think I'm advising getting rid of the 2.8, I'm just thinking of options available to keep the wedge roadworthy.
Wilf,
Thanks, I have found the cream colored engine run relay and tried to check it out. With it open to check I can see the relay pulls in and runs the fuel pump in the ignition switch start position. It does not run the pump in the run position or run the pump for a short time when the ignition is first turned on. So I do not know if it is defective or there is a signal that tells it what to do. I understand the relay is prone to failure but since it pulls in and runs the fuel pump in the start mode I assume it is ok. The pwb does not show any damage. I do not know what signals it uses to run the pump except the start mode.
Thanks for the info, any other thoughts?
John
Thanks, I have found the cream colored engine run relay and tried to check it out. With it open to check I can see the relay pulls in and runs the fuel pump in the ignition switch start position. It does not run the pump in the run position or run the pump for a short time when the ignition is first turned on. So I do not know if it is defective or there is a signal that tells it what to do. I understand the relay is prone to failure but since it pulls in and runs the fuel pump in the start mode I assume it is ok. The pwb does not show any damage. I do not know what signals it uses to run the pump except the start mode.
Thanks for the info, any other thoughts?
John
Received a fuel accumulator from Amazon, $94 including shipping. Installed it but engine still does not start. The metering unit may be working, if I crack open a line to a fuel injector fuel comes out and I can change the volume by lifting the air piston. I finally decided to do a compression check, tested four cylinders and two seemed ok but two had no compression. Engine turns over very fast on the starter so there is probably more cylinders with no compression. I suspect stuck valves since the engine had not been started for at least four years. Next I will remove valve covers to confirm if there are stuck valves. I am in the process of replacing most of the interior so it may be awhile before I get back to the engine diagnosis.
Cheers,
John
Cheers,
John
Engine turns over very fast.....hmmmm.....
Have you checked that the dizzy rotor arm actually turns ???
I say this because a known weak spot of Cologne engines is that they can shred their cam drive, resulting in the valves either not moving at all, or the timing slipping when one or more teeth break off.
(Cam drive gear is a fibre based item, to make it quieter)
Also it's possible it has been put together incorrectly, but I guess that's not very likely...
The other thing you might try is to put a small amount of engine oil in each cylinder, down the spark plug hole - it helps the piston rings seal if they are completely dry. If you've turned the engine over a lot though, oil should have been sprayed around already.....
Have you checked that the dizzy rotor arm actually turns ???
I say this because a known weak spot of Cologne engines is that they can shred their cam drive, resulting in the valves either not moving at all, or the timing slipping when one or more teeth break off.
(Cam drive gear is a fibre based item, to make it quieter)
Also it's possible it has been put together incorrectly, but I guess that's not very likely...
The other thing you might try is to put a small amount of engine oil in each cylinder, down the spark plug hole - it helps the piston rings seal if they are completely dry. If you've turned the engine over a lot though, oil should have been sprayed around already.....
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