fuel pump power 85 wedge federal
Discussion
This mornings observations. Cold start engine fired right up and good idle. Measured voltage on the coil reads about 10 volts, seems about correct to me, other thoughts? Connected meter to duty cycle test point, engine running reads about 6 volts, I am assuming that is about 50/50 duty cycle using a moving needle volt meter. Right or WRONG? If I disconnect the regulator solenoid the reading goes to near zero and engine rpm's go up a bit. With solenoid connected when throttle is let close engine speed drops slightly below idle and then comes up. With solenoid disconnected at throttle close engine goes to idle with no extra drop. Probably what you would expect? After a through warm up connecting and disconnecting the O2 sensor has no effect. The voltage at the O2 sensor starts cold at about .3 volts and never changed in a half hour of running. Dead O2 sensor?? What would you expect to measure? Tried connecting the hose to the wide open throttle switch (WOT). Disconnected and hose plugged, 50/50 duty cycle (6 volts). Connected hose, voltage/duty cycle goes up to approx. 10 volts and fluctuates a bit. Nothing changes when the throttle is opened and closed. Suspect engine does not like WOT connected?? Left it disconnected and line plugged.
Dropped 3 mm hex wrench into the metering unit adjustment port. Was pleased to see it go up and down with throttle change. Does this tell you the metering unit piston is moving up and down or just the air flap and its linkage? As
I recall the linkage lifts the metering piston but the piston "falls" down??
I did not take a test drive, no chase car/helper today and it is cold and I did not want to risk a cold walk home!
After a minimum of a half hour running well in the shop I shut it off. The coil was warm but I noticed the heater hose was against it and that could have heated it, rerouted the hose. I cracked the fitting where the fuel enters the metering unit and a "gush" came out. Not sure that indicated anything as the engine never had a load to increase the fuel demand during a test drive so lines could be still restricted.
Any thoughts? Thanks again,
John
Dropped 3 mm hex wrench into the metering unit adjustment port. Was pleased to see it go up and down with throttle change. Does this tell you the metering unit piston is moving up and down or just the air flap and its linkage? As
I recall the linkage lifts the metering piston but the piston "falls" down??
I did not take a test drive, no chase car/helper today and it is cold and I did not want to risk a cold walk home!
After a minimum of a half hour running well in the shop I shut it off. The coil was warm but I noticed the heater hose was against it and that could have heated it, rerouted the hose. I cracked the fitting where the fuel enters the metering unit and a "gush" came out. Not sure that indicated anything as the engine never had a load to increase the fuel demand during a test drive so lines could be still restricted.
Any thoughts? Thanks again,
John
Coil 10volts ..good.
Once hot, O2 sensors typically read 09v if rich and .2v once lean. They tend to flip, it's not gradual.
These things need to very hot!! the weather can really fxxk with them, newer sensors have heaters!!!!
The duty cycle point is usually measured with a scope, but the higher the voltage you see means it either lean or closed loop..
The meter will averaging the reading.
Does that makes sense, the longer pulse of the closed pulse (the 80 of the 80/20) will move the needle more than the shorter pulse of the 50.
Probably better on a dig meter.
The wide open throttle should send it back to rich. Open loop.
The voltage on the duty cycle is really a comparison thing and I don't think is a regular measurement.
The idle mixture is such a fine adjustment I doubt it moves tjhe sensor plate or the control plunger, more likel;ly to be like a mini pressure reg. A little pointy thing in an orafice. In other words, not sure
Re the gush of fuel when you cracked a fitting...that's good, that's how it should be. There should be residual pressure in the system because the fuel pump doesn't run until motor is turning, would be a bugger to start w/o that pressure.
Give it short run over the weekend. assuming the weather is ok,
I'll watch the thread to see how you get on.
There is a fuel delivery check you can do, I'll try to find it.
Once hot, O2 sensors typically read 09v if rich and .2v once lean. They tend to flip, it's not gradual.
These things need to very hot!! the weather can really fxxk with them, newer sensors have heaters!!!!
The duty cycle point is usually measured with a scope, but the higher the voltage you see means it either lean or closed loop..
The meter will averaging the reading.
Does that makes sense, the longer pulse of the closed pulse (the 80 of the 80/20) will move the needle more than the shorter pulse of the 50.
Probably better on a dig meter.
The wide open throttle should send it back to rich. Open loop.
The voltage on the duty cycle is really a comparison thing and I don't think is a regular measurement.
The idle mixture is such a fine adjustment I doubt it moves tjhe sensor plate or the control plunger, more likel;ly to be like a mini pressure reg. A little pointy thing in an orafice. In other words, not sure
Re the gush of fuel when you cracked a fitting...that's good, that's how it should be. There should be residual pressure in the system because the fuel pump doesn't run until motor is turning, would be a bugger to start w/o that pressure.
Give it short run over the weekend. assuming the weather is ok,
I'll watch the thread to see how you get on.
There is a fuel delivery check you can do, I'll try to find it.
Fuel delivery check.
This proves your pump, accumalator swirl pot and filter.
Locate fuel return on the Fuel dist near the Pressure reg, Pressure reg looks like a 5/8th bolt on the front .
You have to make up a hose a couple of feet long and feed it into a measuring jug.
750 ccs in 30 seconds.
Quite a good test, because if you have the volume....good chance the rest is good.
To get the pump to run there are a few ways, swapping relays etc, but I prefer a wire from fuel pump with a croc clip that I can just hold it on the battery.
That way I have complete control and I not yelling at my wife "turn it off"
There ARE pressure tests for the system and control pressures but they require a CIS gauge with a T fitting, relativly complex. Hot and cold etc Last resort
This proves your pump, accumalator swirl pot and filter.
Locate fuel return on the Fuel dist near the Pressure reg, Pressure reg looks like a 5/8th bolt on the front .
You have to make up a hose a couple of feet long and feed it into a measuring jug.
750 ccs in 30 seconds.
Quite a good test, because if you have the volume....good chance the rest is good.
To get the pump to run there are a few ways, swapping relays etc, but I prefer a wire from fuel pump with a croc clip that I can just hold it on the battery.
That way I have complete control and I not yelling at my wife "turn it off"
There ARE pressure tests for the system and control pressures but they require a CIS gauge with a T fitting, relativly complex. Hot and cold etc Last resort
Fuel delivery check:
Can the hose from the bulkhead filter to the metering unit be used? I don't have any banjo fittings to connect to the return line side of the metering unit. That fitting is a double with the return line and the "duty cycle" regulator (what ever its official name is). Using the line from the filter would not check any flow thru the metering unit and its pressure regulator. When I originally was trying to clean the fuel lines I ran the pump and had a very high flow from the bulkhead filter to metering unit line. I have not repeated the test since having attempted to drive the car.
I have been powering the pump with an external battery. I like your idea of a clips and wire long enough to reach the battery better. Getting to the pump leads every time I want a test is a pain in the butt! If all this testing keeps up I think I will fabricate an external, easy to reach, external power point to the pump.
OH! I just went to the shop and looked at the return line banjo and noticed the hose is connected to it with a crimp type clamp (low pressure return line) I should be able to cut off the clamp and replace it with a normal screw type hose clamp after doing the flow test you described. All the high pressure banjo line connections appear to be irremovable. I assume they were heat shrunk to the banjos.
Not sure what to make of the duty cycle data.
Thanks again, I will let you know the results,
John
Another question, does your car have any protective shield to keep the wheel well water etc. from getting on the pump and accumulator? There was none on my car and I have made a poor attempt to cover the pump and accumulator.
Can the hose from the bulkhead filter to the metering unit be used? I don't have any banjo fittings to connect to the return line side of the metering unit. That fitting is a double with the return line and the "duty cycle" regulator (what ever its official name is). Using the line from the filter would not check any flow thru the metering unit and its pressure regulator. When I originally was trying to clean the fuel lines I ran the pump and had a very high flow from the bulkhead filter to metering unit line. I have not repeated the test since having attempted to drive the car.
I have been powering the pump with an external battery. I like your idea of a clips and wire long enough to reach the battery better. Getting to the pump leads every time I want a test is a pain in the butt! If all this testing keeps up I think I will fabricate an external, easy to reach, external power point to the pump.
OH! I just went to the shop and looked at the return line banjo and noticed the hose is connected to it with a crimp type clamp (low pressure return line) I should be able to cut off the clamp and replace it with a normal screw type hose clamp after doing the flow test you described. All the high pressure banjo line connections appear to be irremovable. I assume they were heat shrunk to the banjos.
Not sure what to make of the duty cycle data.
Thanks again, I will let you know the results,
John
Another question, does your car have any protective shield to keep the wheel well water etc. from getting on the pump and accumulator? There was none on my car and I have made a poor attempt to cover the pump and accumulator.
Hi John...Yes the banjos are heat pressed in...Apparently there is a kit you can buy but the best alternative was a 280i at a Wedgefest that had steel pipes with a braided high pressure joiner..What ever you do do not crimp/Clamp the plastic pipes as they will rupture..I have some spares somewhere but just remember they are pre-cut to a particular size, I think i used the longest...I have actually repaired a tiny hole in one with a section from another and melted it over like a sleeve with a soldering iron...Obviously off the car!...The two plastics joined well being the same compounds.
The pumps should have a rubber boot over the electrical fittings, No shroud or cover..The same for the accumulator...Ziga
The pumps should have a rubber boot over the electrical fittings, No shroud or cover..The same for the accumulator...Ziga
Fuel delivery test results:
I removed the banjo the goes to the pulsed regulator and cut off the short section of hose that connected the banjo to the semi rigid plastic pipe that leads to the regulator. Was surprised to see the the semi rigid tube was shrunk onto the banjo and what would seem to be redundant the short hose and clamps over the joint. I ran the flow test into a container that probably holds about a litre. Instead of jumping the fuel pump power I disconnected the plug to the distributor and cranked the engine for the 30 seconds. I believe there was at least 750 cc's in the container. Running the starter probably lowered the voltage reaching the pump but it passed the test anyway, so a good sign!
Ran the engine until hot and tried connecting and disconnecting the regulator solenoid plug. Engine seems to run better with the solenoid disconnected, smoother transition back to idle from throttle open to closed. Possibly smoother at high rpm as well, but again with no load so not conclusive.
At idle I disconnected each spark wire one at a time and looks like it is still hitting on all 6 cylinders.
Still no test drive so I still don't know if I have had any effect on it!
Cheers,
John
I removed the banjo the goes to the pulsed regulator and cut off the short section of hose that connected the banjo to the semi rigid plastic pipe that leads to the regulator. Was surprised to see the the semi rigid tube was shrunk onto the banjo and what would seem to be redundant the short hose and clamps over the joint. I ran the flow test into a container that probably holds about a litre. Instead of jumping the fuel pump power I disconnected the plug to the distributor and cranked the engine for the 30 seconds. I believe there was at least 750 cc's in the container. Running the starter probably lowered the voltage reaching the pump but it passed the test anyway, so a good sign!
Ran the engine until hot and tried connecting and disconnecting the regulator solenoid plug. Engine seems to run better with the solenoid disconnected, smoother transition back to idle from throttle open to closed. Possibly smoother at high rpm as well, but again with no load so not conclusive.
At idle I disconnected each spark wire one at a time and looks like it is still hitting on all 6 cylinders.
Still no test drive so I still don't know if I have had any effect on it!
Cheers,
John
That hard plastic pipe is 'cold fitted' in a special machine, so it should not need any extra clamps. It is actually 'push on' as I understand, not shrunk on. Bosch instructions specifically say do NOT heat it. That's for the original Bosch stuff though - I don't know if TVR ever used anything else, but I don't think so. I think they just bought the engines and gboxes as a package from Ford.
I have remade a joint on mine, and it's *just* about do-able in your garage/shed with a big vice, with some home bodged tools. It takes a lot of force to push the pipe on, and hard to do without slipping and bending/breaking the pipe...you need to bodge up a sort of guide/support to allow you to push hard enough... I used a DIY brake pipe clamp tool to grip the plastic pipe.
Mine has a much softer 'standard' type pipe on the return side, which I think is ordinary, but lower pressure LPG pipe or something like it. It looks like small water hose. This hose DOES need clamps, and I think it's not rated for supply pressure ?.
If you do need to replace anything, the small bore copper or steel pipe (8 or 10mm) would probably work _ there is a wide range of fittings and threads for it, with hydraulic and crimp type clamps/rings which can be tightened with ordinary spanners. Try a hydraulic hoses place for these (we have several suppliers here in rural towns, as there are lots of tractors and machinery which use them).
I have remade a joint on mine, and it's *just* about do-able in your garage/shed with a big vice, with some home bodged tools. It takes a lot of force to push the pipe on, and hard to do without slipping and bending/breaking the pipe...you need to bodge up a sort of guide/support to allow you to push hard enough... I used a DIY brake pipe clamp tool to grip the plastic pipe.
Mine has a much softer 'standard' type pipe on the return side, which I think is ordinary, but lower pressure LPG pipe or something like it. It looks like small water hose. This hose DOES need clamps, and I think it's not rated for supply pressure ?.
If you do need to replace anything, the small bore copper or steel pipe (8 or 10mm) would probably work _ there is a wide range of fittings and threads for it, with hydraulic and crimp type clamps/rings which can be tightened with ordinary spanners. Try a hydraulic hoses place for these (we have several suppliers here in rural towns, as there are lots of tractors and machinery which use them).
Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 31st January 19:24
Edited by RCK974X on Saturday 31st January 19:29
Thanks for the info, fortunately I just replaced the short piece of hose that was at the joint and everything seems good. This was the only connection that had the extra piece of hose over a normal looking "push on" of the semi rigid plastic pipe. As you said the return line is a normal looking fuel hose and is a larger diameter than the pipe from the pump to the bulkhead filter.
Raining, no top, no test drive today!
John
Raining, no top, no test drive today!
John
Drove the car 42 miles to have the new top installed and the car ran perfect. The bad news is the brakes failed during the trip. Car is on stands now awaiting a new master cylinder. The 42 mile trip was the longest run the car has made since all the work getting the fuel system overhauled. My only concern now is the fact that I still do not know the actual condition of the fuel tanks. I flushed them the best I could and added a filter between the swirl pot and the pump as an extra precaution. If the filter plugs up I will know I am in trouble, only time and distance will tell. Most of the comments I have heard is that once the fuel injection system is working it is very reliable.
Thanks for asking for the follow up,
John
Thanks for asking for the follow up,
John
Hi All. Can I join this post with my experience and thoughts on rebuilding a Wedge 2.8i which has been dorment for 14 years. My fuel system swirl pot was full of an evil smelling black tar like substance. I managed to cut open and clean the pot but there was obviously the same black tar muck in the tanks. I flushed both tanks as far as possible with cellulose thinners which was the only liquid I could find that would disolve the tar like substance. The rest of the fuel lines looked clear except for the pump, seized solid. I, to installed an inline filter between the tanks and pump. Working on the assumption, correct or otherwise, that if I could see muck in it,I could replace before it reached more sensitive components. Initial starting seems successful, in fact bloody marvelous considering the time lapse of inactivity. I can vouch for the sensitivity of the fuel distributor adjustment. Any advice on its setting without a CO2 meter would be gratfully received? An 1/16th of a turn or any pressure on the allen key can make a considerable difference. My engine use to cut out as the rpm decayed to any throttle input. Adjustment to the throttle stop, idle screw seems to have sorted the problem but the vehicle has not been driven, so how it behaves on the road is anybodys guess. I just hope that I've cleared all the muck in the system and that future driving doesn't produce problems? Incidentally I've set the ignition timing to 8 degrees BTDC as recommended in the "bible" for unleaded fuel. Thanks for any replies. J C.
That is good news...I think if i were to go back to when we removed Delilah's fuel tanks i would not of panicked so much when we removed a small container full of rust from the drivers side fuel tank...Luckily the passenger side had been plastic coated inside although I'm not sure how that would be fairing now with the amount of ethanol in the fuel these days?
With hindsight..(A wonderful thing if poss) i would of have the existing tank tested and probably sealed and used but luckily for me i had a very nice fellow Wedger who had an almost brand new one sat in his garage.
As long as they are not leaking which sometimes can be almost impossible to spot if its a pinhole..(I guess the only way would be to have them pressure tested)...Then being cleaned and kept topped up with fresh fuel and not allowed to sit about for weeks on end coupled with a good gravity fed clear pre-pump filter should be absolutely fine.
Unfortunately the worst thing anyone could do to a car that has sat about for 11 years was done to Delilah....Turning the key...Driving to a petrol garage..Putting in some fuel and then driving her around like she was a new car....Until she cut out and wouldn't start again....TW@T...Then muggins here comes along smitten with the prospect of owning his first TVR after falling in love with them nearly 30 years previously and always thinking i could NEVER be able to afford one...
Well the rest is history....Personally i actually think its a good thing that these car have problems because at least we know where they are...And the added bonus is that for all your hard work and frustrations the reward is an amazing journey....I unfortunately suffered a long term illness but TVR was my salvation so will defend them to the hilt and TVR will run through my veins now until the day i die..
Viva la TVR...Viva la Wedge
With hindsight..(A wonderful thing if poss) i would of have the existing tank tested and probably sealed and used but luckily for me i had a very nice fellow Wedger who had an almost brand new one sat in his garage.
As long as they are not leaking which sometimes can be almost impossible to spot if its a pinhole..(I guess the only way would be to have them pressure tested)...Then being cleaned and kept topped up with fresh fuel and not allowed to sit about for weeks on end coupled with a good gravity fed clear pre-pump filter should be absolutely fine.
Unfortunately the worst thing anyone could do to a car that has sat about for 11 years was done to Delilah....Turning the key...Driving to a petrol garage..Putting in some fuel and then driving her around like she was a new car....Until she cut out and wouldn't start again....TW@T...Then muggins here comes along smitten with the prospect of owning his first TVR after falling in love with them nearly 30 years previously and always thinking i could NEVER be able to afford one...
Well the rest is history....Personally i actually think its a good thing that these car have problems because at least we know where they are...And the added bonus is that for all your hard work and frustrations the reward is an amazing journey....I unfortunately suffered a long term illness but TVR was my salvation so will defend them to the hilt and TVR will run through my veins now until the day i die..
Viva la TVR...Viva la Wedge
Hi Ziga. Yes I 'm well pleased with my progress so far. I have driven it a short distance with no problems except for stalling a few times when manoeuvring into my workshop. I put this down to poor clutch adjustment and maybe timing(8 degress BTDC)and fuel adjustment? However it does seem to die when rpm drops back to idle; somewhat cured by adjusting the throttle stop screw. Maybe this is hiding another problem,ie fuel mixture? I love this "fiddling" at least you can not like modern cars. Cheers J C
Cheers J Cnot sure if you can get this in the UK, but Im now using STA-BIL 360 as a fuel additive....
http://www.goldeagle.com/STA-BIL360-Performance-Ca...
I also use Redline Fuel Treatment in the spring when the car comes out of storage.
http://www.goldeagle.com/STA-BIL360-Performance-Ca...
I also use Redline Fuel Treatment in the spring when the car comes out of storage.
John042 said:
Hi Ziga. Yes I 'm well pleased with my progress so far. I have driven it a short distance with no problems except for stalling a few times when manoeuvring into my workshop. I put this down to poor clutch adjustment and maybe timing(8 degress BTDC)and fuel adjustment? However it does seem to die when rpm drops back to idle; somewhat cured by adjusting the throttle stop screw. Maybe this is hiding another problem,ie fuel mixture? I love this "fiddling" at least you can not like modern cars. Cheers J C
Hi John...I used to have Delilah's set to around 8.5 degrees and she used to tick over nicely at 850rpm...In fact even at 650 which i preferred but when everything came on she went off.... Cheers J CDon't fiddle too much because there is a real danger of too much fiddling...Have you touched the mixture screw on the metering head??
Yep Ziga, can't resist a good "Fiddle"
even at my age! It has stopped the cutting out as the rpm decays from 'blipping' the throttle so it's now set about 1/2 a turn anticlockwise from its original position. Idle is steady at about 800 rpm, throttle pick up seems OK statically. I've left the ignition timing at 8 BTDC. I was going to invest in a CO2 meter but may leave that until its MOT test next year.I was going to leave well whilst ahead? Cheers J C.
even at my age! It has stopped the cutting out as the rpm decays from 'blipping' the throttle so it's now set about 1/2 a turn anticlockwise from its original position. Idle is steady at about 800 rpm, throttle pick up seems OK statically. I've left the ignition timing at 8 BTDC. I was going to invest in a CO2 meter but may leave that until its MOT test next year.I was going to leave well whilst ahead? Cheers J C. Hi John...Ideally you should never need to touch the mixture screw on the metering head, Anyhow now that you have there is a sweet spot and you know when its on it but should only be turned in very small increments and try to avoid pushing down or pulling up when adjusting...Blipping the throttle should return back to idle smoothly which indicates the correct setting, I wouldn't worry too much about the tester as when you find the right spot it will be pretty much there...However once you have found it...
...FFS...Stop fiddling...Well with that at least.....
...FFS...Stop fiddling...Well with that at least.....
Sure sign of a rich mixture on a K Jetronic vehicle is if you blip the throttle the revs dip below idle threshold or worse stall, even with an over lean mixture it may run splashy on idle or lumpy but wont stall out just remember if you adjust the mixture screw on the metering head under no circumstances open the throttle with the Allen headed tool/long Allen key in place the air flap will move and you can cause damage
just remember if you adjust the mixture screw on the metering head under no circumstances open the throttle with the Allen headed tool/long Allen key in place the air flap will move and you can cause damage Gassing Station | Wedges | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff