PPI reveals cream cheese in the oil
Discussion
So the 280i fhc that I just looked at has cream cheese in the oil. Pull the cap off the radiator and it's blowing bubbles in the beige colored coolant. Oh dear I cry. Seller also reveals that one head, he can't remember which, had already cracked and had been welded up many many moons ago.
The thing is this car's body is in great condition and the chassis too. Interior needs some help but it's not horrible. Car drives straight, steers nicely and brakes fine as well. Glass is good also. All round solid car.
Also the engine has meant to have had a 3.2 conversion done on it. So does that mean a normal Ford gasket no longer fits?
I'm not up on the Cologne engine, so any input would be appreciated. Is pulling the heads and doing a gasket set, we hope it's just a gasket, that big of a deal? If we have a cracked head anyone know if replacements can be sourced in the US. If it is a cracked head, is it even worth the hassle. I think I heard about fitting heads of a Bronco and going to a carb set up. Which I think requires custom exhaust manifolds, as the Bronco head is a three pot one.
Thanks for the advice in advance,
Cheers, Gavin.
The thing is this car's body is in great condition and the chassis too. Interior needs some help but it's not horrible. Car drives straight, steers nicely and brakes fine as well. Glass is good also. All round solid car.
Also the engine has meant to have had a 3.2 conversion done on it. So does that mean a normal Ford gasket no longer fits?
I'm not up on the Cologne engine, so any input would be appreciated. Is pulling the heads and doing a gasket set, we hope it's just a gasket, that big of a deal? If we have a cracked head anyone know if replacements can be sourced in the US. If it is a cracked head, is it even worth the hassle. I think I heard about fitting heads of a Bronco and going to a carb set up. Which I think requires custom exhaust manifolds, as the Bronco head is a three pot one.
Thanks for the advice in advance,
Cheers, Gavin.
Hi mate...When i was looking into getting more power from my 280i i looked into the 3.2ltr conversion and the guys i was going to use don't touch the bores apparently...They achieve it by way of long stroke crank and bigger valves..Slightly different pistons, When i asked if this conversion would weaken the heads they nearly bit my head off!!!..."We don't touch the bores and all that is just bullshyte"....They said...So it depends how the 3.2ltr has been achieved from yours..Were the heads bored out too much and they have cracked?....Have they been skimmed?...Other than this then normal gaskets should be fine...Although i would buy a PAYNE set or something of good quality...Its not too bad a job and it helps if you have a haynes manual on the ford capri/Sierra/Granada 2.8i V6 for the tightening sequence and re-torquing of head bolts....
Trying to find a good pair of heads is like looking for Kryptonite....Cost wise...Im not sure about the cost in the US but if it was me then i would look for another engine, Apparently the Aerostar is a good donor and its a V6...Not sure what someone would charge in the US for machining a 3 port alloy set..In the UK they pull your trousers down and %@&£ you...You might be very lucky and may only be a gasket but if they have cracked before then there is only so many times you can weld them up.....Ziga
Trying to find a good pair of heads is like looking for Kryptonite....Cost wise...Im not sure about the cost in the US but if it was me then i would look for another engine, Apparently the Aerostar is a good donor and its a V6...Not sure what someone would charge in the US for machining a 3 port alloy set..In the UK they pull your trousers down and %@&£ you...You might be very lucky and may only be a gasket but if they have cracked before then there is only so many times you can weld them up.....Ziga
I've had head trouble with the various Colognes in my life, and so I would agree they aren't all that good in the head gasket dept. especially when they overheat. As far as I know....
If they have been bored out, then there's even LESS head/block surface to seal...and the Ford advice was that you can't rebore them very much, so good capicity conversions either have special sealing, or use longer stroke.
Leaking head gasket(s) often cause cream in the oil, and you need to fix it quick, because the cream typically is an emulsion of water and oil, so can rust the inside of your engine quickly.
Blowing bubbles is a dead giveaway as well - so it's heads off time, and a good flushing oil treatment after reassembly. You need to check block is straight and flat, and any heads you buy, otherwise it's wasted money.
If heads have been welded up, they are probably knackered, see if you can get a replacement engine, that's the quickest., and quite possibly the cheapest too (or at least it used to be, they are a bit rarer nowadays.
If you don't mind non-original, and not afraid of wiring, as I said in a different thread, the 4.0 Cologne from an Explorer will fit to the gearbox, so will the 2.9. I know there was a pushrod 4.0 litre made for the states, if you can find one. The 6 exhaust port blocks will just about fit, as UK owners have fitted the Cosworth 2.9 engine in. If you have a later wedge, they are effectively the V8 frame anyway as I understand, so there may be quite a few more modern engine options. Common knowledge is that a T5 manual box will fit in the tunnel also....
I've been away from UK for a long time now, so I beleive Zig when he says some bits are like rocking horse droppings...with prices to match
If they have been bored out, then there's even LESS head/block surface to seal...and the Ford advice was that you can't rebore them very much, so good capicity conversions either have special sealing, or use longer stroke.
Leaking head gasket(s) often cause cream in the oil, and you need to fix it quick, because the cream typically is an emulsion of water and oil, so can rust the inside of your engine quickly.
Blowing bubbles is a dead giveaway as well - so it's heads off time, and a good flushing oil treatment after reassembly. You need to check block is straight and flat, and any heads you buy, otherwise it's wasted money.
If heads have been welded up, they are probably knackered, see if you can get a replacement engine, that's the quickest., and quite possibly the cheapest too (or at least it used to be, they are a bit rarer nowadays.
If you don't mind non-original, and not afraid of wiring, as I said in a different thread, the 4.0 Cologne from an Explorer will fit to the gearbox, so will the 2.9. I know there was a pushrod 4.0 litre made for the states, if you can find one. The 6 exhaust port blocks will just about fit, as UK owners have fitted the Cosworth 2.9 engine in. If you have a later wedge, they are effectively the V8 frame anyway as I understand, so there may be quite a few more modern engine options. Common knowledge is that a T5 manual box will fit in the tunnel also....
I've been away from UK for a long time now, so I beleive Zig when he says some bits are like rocking horse droppings...with prices to match
Edited by RCK974X on Monday 7th July 07:03
RCK974X said:
I've been away from UK for a long time now, so I beleive Zig when he says some bits are like rocking horse droppings...with prices to match
To give an example...I sold a pair of cologne heads with knackered/Totally recessed valves to a Ford specialist for £300....If you can find them then a pair of cologne heads with the work needed so they are compatible for a 3.2ltr conversion are between £600-700 so i'm sure for the price of them you could probably buy and fit another engine...Possibly a V8 as i think that the US spec 280i had a wider chassis...Although I'm not 100% on that but with fettling there are a few possibilities....ZigaEngines that could fit.
Ford Taunus
Aerostar Vulcan 3.0ltr V6...60 Degree block the same as the cologne
Ford Aerostar 4.0ltr V6
Ford small block 302 5.0ltr
V6 Mustang 5.0ltr...Not sure what angle the V is though...
Edited by mrzigazaga on Monday 7th July 07:58
Thank you guys for the input, so very much appreciated. I'm a touch p***ed off with the whole situation as I had made the effort to travel 1200 miles to see the car, granted it was part of a business trip but it took some co-ordination and expense to incorporate the detour. For the seller not to know about the issue is so highly unlikely considering he has owned the car for 19 years and that's what rubs me. He made the comment that a head gasket is better than a cracked or rusted frame. Which is true but only if it is the gasket. He says he has not driven the car in almost two years due to injury and the car being in a shop for electrical issues. So we can probably assume the issue has been there for quite awhile and damage to the internals is almost an absolute. The cream cheese was very evident on the dip stick. So I asked his lowest price and he reduced it by $500. Well that's generous I think, it's definitely my lucky day!. $3000 is still a hefty price to pay even with a good chassis and body. So unfortunately no wedge for me.
Sometimes I think I might me better off getting a Corvette C4. Plenty around, V8 obviously, bundles of parts on every street corner in every town to keep them running and all for sensible money. Such a shame that I find myself thinking like this. That's my head ruling my heart I guess.
Cheers, Gavin.
Sometimes I think I might me better off getting a Corvette C4. Plenty around, V8 obviously, bundles of parts on every street corner in every town to keep them running and all for sensible money. Such a shame that I find myself thinking like this. That's my head ruling my heart I guess.
Cheers, Gavin.
Hi mate...Unfortunately this happens a lot..For a Wedge in the condition as a non-runner i wouldn't pay more than..Between $1700-$2000..If the car has sat around for two years then there could now be other issues relating to fuel tanks and fuel layout...However if you could get it or one similar for less than $2000 then its a good start.. It will need another engine, I found out today that the heads are known to crack around the valves if the head gasket has gone so it could be an easy fix or an engine out job but either way buying something for that price is going to need money spent on it...In fact most cars will...If you can do some or all of it yourself then that saves loads of money..
Don't give up on the Wedge dream...I would call the guy and tell him that you will give him $2000 cash...No more...In his hand...If he ums and arrs then just say.."You got my number"...You never know he might stew on it for a day and call you back....Ziga
Don't give up on the Wedge dream...I would call the guy and tell him that you will give him $2000 cash...No more...In his hand...If he ums and arrs then just say.."You got my number"...You never know he might stew on it for a day and call you back....Ziga
Moving on to the next one. Seller wouldn't come down any further, saying someone in Sweden or Switzerland had contacted him about the car. Well good luck with that then. Hope whoever is interested in it does a good PPI. Nothing worse than paying all those shipping charges and finding out the motor is shot the first time you turn the key.
To be honest I didn't think the cologne engine was that much of an issue. I figured that as Ford had used it for so many years it was pretty good lump. Surprised to learn that isn't so. Makes me a bit nervous of any TVR fitted with that engine. Things going wrong doesn't bother me but not having parts to fix does. The one good thing with my 77 Esprit is that pretty much everything is still available.
To be honest I didn't think the cologne engine was that much of an issue. I figured that as Ford had used it for so many years it was pretty good lump. Surprised to learn that isn't so. Makes me a bit nervous of any TVR fitted with that engine. Things going wrong doesn't bother me but not having parts to fix does. The one good thing with my 77 Esprit is that pretty much everything is still available.
This sort of "oops" (material misrepresentation) is too common here. That said, Wedges are a rare and can be re-built or re-engine. (I'd never heard of a 3.2). The Colognes are getting rare but a 305/351 SB will fit as will other Fords (it's said). Depends on how much you want a turn-key and how much you want to pay. My 2 cents. Grady
GBinUSA said:
To be honest I didn't think the cologne engine was that much of an issue. I figured that as Ford had used it for so many years it was pretty good lump. Surprised to learn that isn't so.
Don't get me wrong the cologne is a strong reliable engine if looked after, I went through three engines in my search for more power and sourcing parts was a bit of a pain but they were and are still available, You would probably have more luck finding a complete engine rather than just heads...I believe there was a US equivalent of the cologne which i believe to be the Taunus..Although it had a three exhaust port heads.In the UK more and more of the owners of the cologne based Ford capri/Granada/Sierra wanted more power and had room for a big V8..The cologne gained a reputation as being a boat anchor but i found it to be a strong reliable engine once sorted.
Ok its somewhat heavier in comparison to a 3.5 Rover V8 that was used in later Wedges largely down to it being an alloy block and heads...But still a good motor.
The Wedge is becoming more and more desirable and will become a rare commodity...I waited 30 years to own one and don't regret a single day.
Keep looking and you shall find.
Ziga
If I could of got the car for $2k I would of taken it. Being hands on is not the issue but I really wasn't looking for a major surgery project as soon is it got into my garage. We had agreed on a price subject to inspection. At no point did he mention that previous head work was done resulting in a weld. All that was mentioned was the 3.2 conversion with the upgrade to hardened valve seats. The car was described as in great mechanical condition but requiring cosmetic TLC. Reducing the price by $500 to reflect a possible head gasket or engine swap is not enough. Go fix the problem and I'll give you
more for it. As with most things, people think thier stuff is worth more than what the next man will pay. The seller wants out of the car but he has a $3000 repair bill for electrical work that he wants to recoup. Thus his $3000 bottom number. The work was done on the dash wiring with some gauges being replaced faollowing an incident that resulted in some burnt wires. When driving the car I noticed that the rev counter was reading under by 50% and the volt gauge was reading in the red at 15v. There was also some issue with the indicator stalk. It took the shop a year to do the work. Why I don't know but normally is lack of parts, ability to do the work or lack of payment. Who knows which.
It's unfortunate because I liked the car but it's not the only fhc about and if I need to spend more money I will. Life doesn't really allow me to undertake full blown mechanical surgery, however I am more than capable, so I shall look for one that requires less from the outset.
Cheers,
Gavin.
more for it. As with most things, people think thier stuff is worth more than what the next man will pay. The seller wants out of the car but he has a $3000 repair bill for electrical work that he wants to recoup. Thus his $3000 bottom number. The work was done on the dash wiring with some gauges being replaced faollowing an incident that resulted in some burnt wires. When driving the car I noticed that the rev counter was reading under by 50% and the volt gauge was reading in the red at 15v. There was also some issue with the indicator stalk. It took the shop a year to do the work. Why I don't know but normally is lack of parts, ability to do the work or lack of payment. Who knows which.
It's unfortunate because I liked the car but it's not the only fhc about and if I need to spend more money I will. Life doesn't really allow me to undertake full blown mechanical surgery, however I am more than capable, so I shall look for one that requires less from the outset.
Cheers,
Gavin.
Hi mate...Sounds like you had a lucky escape then really..Going by what you say about someone taking a year to do some wiring then i would question everything that they have done, Especially as you say gauges being 50% out!!!...They are bad enough at being accurate anyway.
I agree with you that the guy should of been more honest about any heads being cracked or repair work...Unfortunately some people live in land cuckoo.
Hopefully a good one will come along..I can put the feelers out with the TVRCC stateside if you want to be made aware of any Wedges that come up for sale in the future.
Cheers...Ziga
I agree with you that the guy should of been more honest about any heads being cracked or repair work...Unfortunately some people live in land cuckoo.
Hopefully a good one will come along..I can put the feelers out with the TVRCC stateside if you want to be made aware of any Wedges that come up for sale in the future.
Cheers...Ziga
Just to add my bit -
The Cologne series engines weren't awful or particlarly unreliable, but were pretty typical (Euro) Ford engines of their time - pretty good if maintained, but did have some weak spots. (most engines do somewhere !!)
For example, something not often mentioned is that the water pump bearings are too small, and wear out VERY fast if fan belt run too tight, but lots of 'experts' quote head problems....
From street knowledge, they DO tend to blow head gaskets, but typically because of being overheated, but actually the 2.3 was more prone than the 2.8 for some odd reason.
All pushrod Colognes can break their cam drive gears, normally this doesn't do any serious damage, but means an engine strip down to clean and replace. Steel cam drives are (still?) available to fix this problem
A lot of 'home tuner' types reckoned airflow was terrible because engine has a siamese port on each side, but actually flow bench tests showed it wasn't all that much worse, and was good up to something like 180bhp. Similarly inlet manifold got bad press for similar reasons.
So some of their repuation was underserved.
I understand the early US 2.8 (with 6 exhaust ports and different heads) really DID have a bad problem with head gaskets, due to poor casting design - Europe never got those heads, but that kind of bad news tends to travel fast, and a long way. Ford US did fix it, and moved up to 4 litre colognes for (small?) SUV range, and they had some issues to start with, but got fixed up.
I've driven cars with Colognes (2.3 and 2.8) in them for a long time, both injection and carb versions.
I've owned and driven my wedge for 25 years without any serious engine problems.
The Cologne series engines weren't awful or particlarly unreliable, but were pretty typical (Euro) Ford engines of their time - pretty good if maintained, but did have some weak spots. (most engines do somewhere !!)
For example, something not often mentioned is that the water pump bearings are too small, and wear out VERY fast if fan belt run too tight, but lots of 'experts' quote head problems....
From street knowledge, they DO tend to blow head gaskets, but typically because of being overheated, but actually the 2.3 was more prone than the 2.8 for some odd reason.
All pushrod Colognes can break their cam drive gears, normally this doesn't do any serious damage, but means an engine strip down to clean and replace. Steel cam drives are (still?) available to fix this problem
A lot of 'home tuner' types reckoned airflow was terrible because engine has a siamese port on each side, but actually flow bench tests showed it wasn't all that much worse, and was good up to something like 180bhp. Similarly inlet manifold got bad press for similar reasons.
So some of their repuation was underserved.
I understand the early US 2.8 (with 6 exhaust ports and different heads) really DID have a bad problem with head gaskets, due to poor casting design - Europe never got those heads, but that kind of bad news tends to travel fast, and a long way. Ford US did fix it, and moved up to 4 litre colognes for (small?) SUV range, and they had some issues to start with, but got fixed up.
I've driven cars with Colognes (2.3 and 2.8) in them for a long time, both injection and carb versions.
I've owned and driven my wedge for 25 years without any serious engine problems.
Thanks Andy.
I'm used to the twin carb Lotus 907 engine which has an unjustified horrible reputation and is actually a super engine if maintained correctly. I'm hoping the Ford lump will be a bit more forgiving. Funny enough it sounds like parts avaliability is better on the Lotus than the Ford. However, the Ford definitely has less parts that can go wrong.
Cheers Gavin.
I'm used to the twin carb Lotus 907 engine which has an unjustified horrible reputation and is actually a super engine if maintained correctly. I'm hoping the Ford lump will be a bit more forgiving. Funny enough it sounds like parts avaliability is better on the Lotus than the Ford. However, the Ford definitely has less parts that can go wrong.
Cheers Gavin.
Edited by GBinUSA on Wednesday 9th July 01:09
The best web site I found for cologne bits is most likely 'Burton Power' based here in the UK but ship over seas
They sell majority of those silly bits that you may need even valve collets!
There a classic / modern ford specialist pretty sure they sell heads but they cost an arm and a leg
Zack
They sell majority of those silly bits that you may need even valve collets!
There a classic / modern ford specialist pretty sure they sell heads but they cost an arm and a leg
Zack
Gavin,
I understand that the 280i engine was used here in the US in a number of vehicles, but none had fuel injection. Wikipedia (generally unreliable) says it was used in these:
Ford Ranger, Ford Bronco II, Ford Aerostar, Ford Pinto, Mercury Bobcat, Mercury Capri, Ford Mustang II, Ford Granada, Ford Capri III, Ford Sierra, Ford Scorpio
I'm not sure if all these were available here. I heard the engine was also used in some Post Office vans!
btw, whereabouts are you located?
Wilf.
I understand that the 280i engine was used here in the US in a number of vehicles, but none had fuel injection. Wikipedia (generally unreliable) says it was used in these:
Ford Ranger, Ford Bronco II, Ford Aerostar, Ford Pinto, Mercury Bobcat, Mercury Capri, Ford Mustang II, Ford Granada, Ford Capri III, Ford Sierra, Ford Scorpio
I'm not sure if all these were available here. I heard the engine was also used in some Post Office vans!
btw, whereabouts are you located?
Wilf.
As to Cologne parts, I've found Ford is no help. The engine is no longer "in the computer" and I have had counter guys tell me Ford never made a 2.8 V-6. However most of the engine parts (except FI parts) are available as Bobcat or Mustang II parts at O'Rilley's AutoZone, NAPA, etc.. Grady
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