The SX Wedges.
Discussion
Hi Peeps...After the fun and games on the TVRCC forum i would like to clear something up...I was shot down and accused of talking shyte when i suggested that they were "Crudely" put together..This is my understanding so please enlighten me if I'm incorrect.
The only mods done to the SX was thicker gaskets and an adjustable ECU which in effect means that the Sprintex was just bolted on.
I was aggressively informed that they were specially engineered and a lot of research was done during the design...(Edited out my mistake)
Now as i understand it the Sprintex initially was designed to go into the Vee of the engine and not be laid on its side?...My suggestion to the cause of a possible holed piston was detonation which again as i understand is caused by too much advanced timing or low grade fuel, It is also very difficult to hear "Pinking" with a supercharger fitted, Also bearing in mind that these cars were designed/Built 20+ years ago and were meant to run on leaded fuels.
While attempting the blower fitment on Delilah i purchased a book written by Pat Ganahl which featured information on every known supercharger and the effects on the engine, It also was fully up to date...I read very carefully and it became a very concerning factor as regards to detonation which on a blown engine can be very catastrophic very quickly so i looked into addressing this with a modern ignition system that was sensitive to rapid changes in fuel/Air and temperature, I also had to address the fuelling.
Basically the book suggested that if you are going to run an old car with a blower in modern times then more work would be beneficial to the ignition system, Mechanical systems such as boost vacuums are ok to a point but do not react quick enough to changes.
Unfortunately even though i was trying to be polite and forgiving Delilah again was called a bodge done on a shoe string and thats why she failed..I wouldn't call 4K a shoe string and i wish i had listened to the advice of a good friend as regards to forgetting the idea and buying a V8....(You know who you are...
) But i saw the venture through and it did fail purely because of the FACT that i did not address the cooling initially...The Granada radiator fitted to the 280i barely coped in the Fords with a N/A engine let alone a blown one...Under bonnet temperature rose by 70 degrees with the blower and obviously the engine temperature rise also.
Eventually i spent £750 on a radtech rad and a twin boost kenlowe fan which unfortunately was too late as the damage was already apparent.
So please if I'm talking a load of twaddle please put me right....
Thanks...Ziga
The only mods done to the SX was thicker gaskets and an adjustable ECU which in effect means that the Sprintex was just bolted on.
I was aggressively informed that they were specially engineered and a lot of research was done during the design...(Edited out my mistake)
Now as i understand it the Sprintex initially was designed to go into the Vee of the engine and not be laid on its side?...My suggestion to the cause of a possible holed piston was detonation which again as i understand is caused by too much advanced timing or low grade fuel, It is also very difficult to hear "Pinking" with a supercharger fitted, Also bearing in mind that these cars were designed/Built 20+ years ago and were meant to run on leaded fuels.
While attempting the blower fitment on Delilah i purchased a book written by Pat Ganahl which featured information on every known supercharger and the effects on the engine, It also was fully up to date...I read very carefully and it became a very concerning factor as regards to detonation which on a blown engine can be very catastrophic very quickly so i looked into addressing this with a modern ignition system that was sensitive to rapid changes in fuel/Air and temperature, I also had to address the fuelling.
Basically the book suggested that if you are going to run an old car with a blower in modern times then more work would be beneficial to the ignition system, Mechanical systems such as boost vacuums are ok to a point but do not react quick enough to changes.
Unfortunately even though i was trying to be polite and forgiving Delilah again was called a bodge done on a shoe string and thats why she failed..I wouldn't call 4K a shoe string and i wish i had listened to the advice of a good friend as regards to forgetting the idea and buying a V8....(You know who you are...
) But i saw the venture through and it did fail purely because of the FACT that i did not address the cooling initially...The Granada radiator fitted to the 280i barely coped in the Fords with a N/A engine let alone a blown one...Under bonnet temperature rose by 70 degrees with the blower and obviously the engine temperature rise also.Eventually i spent £750 on a radtech rad and a twin boost kenlowe fan which unfortunately was too late as the damage was already apparent.
So please if I'm talking a load of twaddle please put me right....
Thanks...Ziga
Edited by mrzigazaga on Thursday 7th August 18:12
If it was properly engineered it would have dished pistons and not a thicker (more prone to failure) gasket to drop compression ratio which is widely acknowledged as poor mans way to drop compression on home brew forced induction systems.
Then again they wouldn't be the first company to do things on the cheap - Janspeed used to get up to some pretty interesting stuff!
Then again they wouldn't be the first company to do things on the cheap - Janspeed used to get up to some pretty interesting stuff!
Edited by smash on Thursday 7th August 16:52
IMHO there was nothing wrong with the SX for the time/era that it was made...well thought out, AGAIN...for it's time/era...
I run a Taimar turbo and twice the ignition/fueling technology has washed away the previously purchased evolution of both systems...a waste of many thousand of pounds. IF I'm honest I think you were slightly naive in your approach to the adding of a 'boosted system'
AND as are writers of 'boosted system books'...control management is of paramount importance. AGAIN IMHO the money thrown at issue should never come up in the subject (I haste to add I KNOW that my car has eaten PLUS 25,000 pounds AND is STILL ongoing)!!! and at one point it was running 400BHP.
Adrian
I run a Taimar turbo and twice the ignition/fueling technology has washed away the previously purchased evolution of both systems...a waste of many thousand of pounds. IF I'm honest I think you were slightly naive in your approach to the adding of a 'boosted system'
AND as are writers of 'boosted system books'...control management is of paramount importance. AGAIN IMHO the money thrown at issue should never come up in the subject (I haste to add I KNOW that my car has eaten PLUS 25,000 pounds AND is STILL ongoing)!!! and at one point it was running 400BHP.
Adrian
Edited by Adrian@ on Thursday 7th August 12:58
Thanks for the replies so far...I hope I'm not coming across as knocking the concept as I'm not..Im just curious to know...Even though i did a lot of research before going ahead with the project on my 280 i was still naive as you say..It was totally unfamiliar territory and to be fair even though it cost me 4K for the installation it was done at cost so in reality it should of been double that...Which i would like to add.."Im glad it wasn't" in hindsight..(A beautiful thing) i would of gone for a 350i with a Griff lump and a mappable ECU...I now think Lb for £ thats the way to go....There are some serious TVR conversions out there and they cost some serious money..Im in awe of them but would be more than chuffed with near 300bhp and 300ftlb of torque...Especially in a Wedge...
rev-erend said:
I thought it was developed by Haugins the TVR dealer .. not by TVR themselves.
At the time the TVR models were 35oi and 390se.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
MY thoughts are, that I will bow to better knowledge when Jasper Guilder At the time the TVR models were 35oi and 390se.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
pops along to teach us a thing or two about these stunning examples.Adrian@
rev-erend said:
I thought it was developed by Haugins the TVR dealer .. not by TVR themselves.
At the time the TVR models were the 350i and 390SE.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
Quite right. There was much debate as to whether the 350SX or the 390SE was the faster car.At the time the TVR models were the 350i and 390SE.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
Would I be right in thinking that the 400SX was never marketed/advertised? I've seen 350SX ads but not a 400SX one.
rev-erend said:
I thought it was developed by Haugins the TVR dealer .. not by TVR themselves.
At the time the TVR models were 35oi and 390se.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
Yeah sorry i wasn't very clear in my original post....Im interested to know if any engine work was carried out or if it was just a case of thicker gaskets and adjustable ECU...I know there was an article written for Sprint about it but i never saw that..(Would like a copy if i can find it)...When i questioned power engineering about the Sierra Sprintex installations they basically fitted it to a new engine and used a thicker head gasket and a modified FPR..MFI system had no ECU just a spark generator...Thing is i have only ever found 1 out of 30 cars in existence today...Don't worry those who know i have a S102 Sprintex sitting about doing nothing, Im not going to kill my 350i as well...At the time the TVR models were 35oi and 390se.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
Here is a Vid of Martins old SX on youtube...There is another video that i have on Facebook when we were going through Dorking town centre..Sounds f
king amazing..I think he scared just about everyone in the high street..The 400SX was also spitting flames..Shame i can't copy and paste it onto here..Maybe Martin can....
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
king amazing..I think he scared just about everyone in the high street..The 400SX was also spitting flames..Shame i can't copy and paste it onto here..Maybe Martin can....http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
TA14 said:
Quite right. There was much debate as to whether the 350SX or the 390SE was the faster car.
John Beveridge, a long-time former owner of my car, use to have it serviced at Haughins and one time when it was in for major work, Haughins lent him a 350SX for a week. He said there was little difference in the overall perfmormance but the supercharger whistle drove him nuts on motorway trips (most of the 120000 miles on my car were done by John ploughing up and down the motorways in Scotland in the early 90s).V8 GRF said:
Is that a 'period' article or the one that Jasper wrote for us a few years ago?
I read the Performance car article of 88 and would love a copy of what Jasper wrote, It would seem that it was a case of no internal work to the engine and just a composite head gasket was used to lower compression..Is it correct than 11 were made in total?..Does anyone know how many are left?...mrzigazaga said:
V8 GRF said:
Is that a 'period' article or the one that Jasper wrote for us a few years ago?
I read the Performance car article of 88 and would love a copy of what Jasper wrote, It would seem that it was a case of no internal work to the engine and just a composite head gasket was used to lower compression..Is it correct than 11 were made in total?..Does anyone know how many are left?...Quite a bit on Haughins if you take a look. This is one thread.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=20&...
I bought my 390SE S2 from him in about '87 and, at the time also drove possibly the first, SX he comissioned before making up my mind. The SX was definitely not a factory offered option, but I can't remember who actually built the engines. He did tell me at the time though and I still have one of his brochures somewhere (produced to look similar to factory ones of the period)so maybe it says on there. I will dig it out and have a look.
I bought the 390 because I thought it was 'better' than the SX and was factory produced rather than a Haughins special. I don't recall any changes other than the engine and badging, but it was long time ago!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=20&...
I bought my 390SE S2 from him in about '87 and, at the time also drove possibly the first, SX he comissioned before making up my mind. The SX was definitely not a factory offered option, but I can't remember who actually built the engines. He did tell me at the time though and I still have one of his brochures somewhere (produced to look similar to factory ones of the period)so maybe it says on there. I will dig it out and have a look.
I bought the 390 because I thought it was 'better' than the SX and was factory produced rather than a Haughins special. I don't recall any changes other than the engine and badging, but it was long time ago!
I doubt if the Rover V8+supercharger was a 'TVR only' project. Wasn't it being offered commercially for Range Rovers? I remember driving a Ranger Rover in the late 80's that was supercharged - it kept throwing it's drive belt...
I guess the difficult bit was trying to get it under the bonnet line. I know of one wedge that had a big bulge on the bonnet to accomodate the supercharger, that car was the work of Dennis Priddle of drag racing fame.
I guess the difficult bit was trying to get it under the bonnet line. I know of one wedge that had a big bulge on the bonnet to accomodate the supercharger, that car was the work of Dennis Priddle of drag racing fame.
rev-erend said:
I thought it was developed by Haugins the TVR dealer .. not by TVR themselves.
At the time the TVR models were 35oi and 390se.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
The above is correct. Haughins were rival dealers to the TVR Centre in Barnet and they created the SX. The factory were happy for the dealers to make such mods but did not market them as such. Back in the day the dealers had a great say in what the factory ended up doing coming up with their own mods. Another example was a tubular manifold and exhaust system mod for the S1 350is which then became standard for the S2 models that started appearing from 85 onwards...At the time the TVR models were 35oi and 390se.
The 350i was the first to be converted by Haugins..
GV said:
The above is correct. Haughins were rival dealers to the TVR Centre in Barnet and they created the SX. The factory were happy for the dealers to make such mods but did not market them as such. Back in the day the dealers had a great say in what the factory ended up doing coming up with their own mods. Another example was a tubular manifold and exhaust system mod for the S1 350is which then became standard for the S2 models that started appearing from 85 onwards...
And yet, strangely, when Joolz Lane suggested to management at HHC that they could make a killing from brake and suspension upgrades to the Cerbera he was told to forget it - so he started his own business doing just that Hi Zig,
I'm open to arguments from SC fans, BUT IMHO ....
I looked at SC options a long time ago on kits and so on, and even then, in the early days of electronic EFi (1970-80s) the advice was the same, that you had to be *VERY* careful about timing and fuel management, because, as said above, detonation will kill your engine almost immediately.
Factory SC versions had significantly lower compression, typically 8:1 (or even less), whereas most NA Euro engines were 9:1 approx. and even then some NA engines had a reputation for pinking in normal road use. So there was already a sort of 'No Go' list of engines, and of course most SC options were American based.
Also research shows that Turbo is most definitely different to SC, they have different boost characteristics and response, and it (seemed) easier to do a turbo as its response is much slower/softer at lower RPM, which is often where the problem is (from what I read anyway).
So at that time (1980's) I was a believer in the "ain't no substitute for cubic inches" club.
Now however, detonation sensors give INSTANT feedback to the engine management computer which can retard the timing for the very next spark, and richen the mixture (which gives a cooling effect as well) in milliseconds. There ain't no way you could do that on older setups. So today, SC and TC work reliably for long periods.
Back to you, I thought it was brave to try SC on a 2.8, but the 2.8 turbo setup was successful, so worth a try I thought, huge shame that it broke the engine. But then I guess, without trying to be nasty, it wasn't a big surprise to me that engine died. I'm not going to mention the money !!!
So I would consider a *FACTORY ORIGINAL* SC or TC engine today, but would still be very wary of an aftermarket 'improvement'.....and I'm still more likely to go for a larger NA engine....especially some of the 4 valve designs.
(was that too long ? sorry)
I'm open to arguments from SC fans, BUT IMHO ....
I looked at SC options a long time ago on kits and so on, and even then, in the early days of electronic EFi (1970-80s) the advice was the same, that you had to be *VERY* careful about timing and fuel management, because, as said above, detonation will kill your engine almost immediately.
Factory SC versions had significantly lower compression, typically 8:1 (or even less), whereas most NA Euro engines were 9:1 approx. and even then some NA engines had a reputation for pinking in normal road use. So there was already a sort of 'No Go' list of engines, and of course most SC options were American based.
Also research shows that Turbo is most definitely different to SC, they have different boost characteristics and response, and it (seemed) easier to do a turbo as its response is much slower/softer at lower RPM, which is often where the problem is (from what I read anyway).
So at that time (1980's) I was a believer in the "ain't no substitute for cubic inches" club.
Now however, detonation sensors give INSTANT feedback to the engine management computer which can retard the timing for the very next spark, and richen the mixture (which gives a cooling effect as well) in milliseconds. There ain't no way you could do that on older setups. So today, SC and TC work reliably for long periods.
Back to you, I thought it was brave to try SC on a 2.8, but the 2.8 turbo setup was successful, so worth a try I thought, huge shame that it broke the engine. But then I guess, without trying to be nasty, it wasn't a big surprise to me that engine died. I'm not going to mention the money !!!
So I would consider a *FACTORY ORIGINAL* SC or TC engine today, but would still be very wary of an aftermarket 'improvement'.....and I'm still more likely to go for a larger NA engine....especially some of the 4 valve designs.
(was that too long ? sorry)
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