Lacking enthusiasm....please help.......
Discussion
A bit of rambling but.....I'm getting old, so just read on....
I've been considering on and off for a long time - "what would I do if I got a serious fuel or ignition problem with my 2.8 which I couldn't fix, or the parts aren't available ? " and that sort of thing. Scrap it, or fiddle with it ? I reckon I wouldn't scrap it !!
We also know, don't we, that the V8 ECU is very,very old for an electronic unit, and I read here and elsewhere about having it all resoldered, and again, what about replacement parts ?
Reading jon's post re-triggered these thoughts, and to me, having an engine with all the Efi setup already there would make me strongly consider something like the MegaSquirt or Emerald or equiv, and even removing the dizzy for a modern multicoil 'wasted spark' setup, which are pretty common now, and supported by those boxes. I've even wondered if this would work for a 2.8 'K' mechanical....although I guess looking at costs, I would probably swop the engine for an unleaded Efi one from somewhere else with same (or more) power.
So I would consider that (new engine management) before going multicarb - it's probably cheaper, although there would be setup hassle with the electronic systems (but multicarbs can be a bugger to set up too.....) It could still look pretty much original too, if that's important to you.
Rear wheel drive vehicles are becoming rarer and rarer, and I wonder if RWD gearboxes might become a bigger availability problem than engines ? Although the T5 series seems to go on and on.... perhaps it will be OK...
Anyway - - just my 2c worth....
I've been considering on and off for a long time - "what would I do if I got a serious fuel or ignition problem with my 2.8 which I couldn't fix, or the parts aren't available ? " and that sort of thing. Scrap it, or fiddle with it ? I reckon I wouldn't scrap it !!
We also know, don't we, that the V8 ECU is very,very old for an electronic unit, and I read here and elsewhere about having it all resoldered, and again, what about replacement parts ?
Reading jon's post re-triggered these thoughts, and to me, having an engine with all the Efi setup already there would make me strongly consider something like the MegaSquirt or Emerald or equiv, and even removing the dizzy for a modern multicoil 'wasted spark' setup, which are pretty common now, and supported by those boxes. I've even wondered if this would work for a 2.8 'K' mechanical....although I guess looking at costs, I would probably swop the engine for an unleaded Efi one from somewhere else with same (or more) power.
So I would consider that (new engine management) before going multicarb - it's probably cheaper, although there would be setup hassle with the electronic systems (but multicarbs can be a bugger to set up too.....) It could still look pretty much original too, if that's important to you.
Rear wheel drive vehicles are becoming rarer and rarer, and I wonder if RWD gearboxes might become a bigger availability problem than engines ? Although the T5 series seems to go on and on.... perhaps it will be OK...
Anyway - - just my 2c worth....
Edited by RCK974X on Thursday 28th August 21:34
RCK974X said:
I would probably swop the engine for an unleaded Efi one from somewhere else with same (or more) power.
The obvious choice would be the 2.9 V6 from the Mk3 Granada: had the Wedge not gained the RV8 that's probably what the factory would have done. Some scope for remapping, unleaded heads, no cats (I think)...(2.9V6) Yeah, good example, and you get a better 5 speed box with it for free if you're lucky, and probably it fits on the engine mounts with no hassle, and fits the 4 speeder too. Great option for UK and Europe I guess.
Here in NZ however, a 2.9 V6 is as rare as the proverbial rocking horse excrement, and even the 2.8 probably gets a 'protected species' classification, so I would have to look at different options.
The BMW replacement looks very good to me from the thread, and still thinking about the Oz straight 6 Ford 4.0.
Falcons are really cheap right now, even the Tickford engined XR6, for a few grand, in running order. (say 1500 quid or so...)
Here in NZ however, a 2.9 V6 is as rare as the proverbial rocking horse excrement, and even the 2.8 probably gets a 'protected species' classification, so I would have to look at different options.
The BMW replacement looks very good to me from the thread, and still thinking about the Oz straight 6 Ford 4.0.
Falcons are really cheap right now, even the Tickford engined XR6, for a few grand, in running order. (say 1500 quid or so...)
Edited by RCK974X on Friday 29th August 05:17
Waiting with baited breath to see the evidence that "a good EFi flapper will outperform a carb setup anytime..." Mappable Megasquirt I'd accept but not the Lucas flapper. And the problem with Megasquirt is to do it on a budget (i.e. less than going carb) you're retaining some of the 30 year old components you want to get rid.
This is what Megasquirt themselves say about the flapper:
[i]We don’t recommend using the Flapper Injector System as it is.
On 'V8 Flapper' systems we suggest you find a 'Hotwire' Inlet & Injector assembly and upgrade. These can be sourced sometimes reasonably cheaply, and offer a vast improvement over the 'Flapper' items.[/i]
You should be able to get a secondhand Holley 390 and manifold for maybe £250-300. You'll need to throw a couple of hundred at a rolling road session - you'd have to do this with Megasquirt anyway. Keep the injection system for next owner if they want to switch back. That's if you want to keep the car because you love it that much and you genuinely think there is nothing else out there that will be such an event to drive (this is not true btw).
You know that if you start throwing big money at it you'll never see the return and at the end of the day it's not a SEAC or big money car. I think really you want to sell it(?). You've experienced genuine bhp now with the Merc - on paper it shouldn't be any quicker but you know that's far from the truth, especially in the crucial overtaking mid ranges 30-70 and all that where you also know it'll crush your 390. If you want a toy sell the wedge and get, as an example, a 7 replica with 180-200 zetec or similar for about 6k - seriously a wedge wouldn't know which way it went (nor woudl your Merc) and you'd be grinning like a nutter.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND....if the wedge genuinely makes you feel like below then you need to keep it
I just found this in the thread about Lambo Murcielago - read on *ahem*
This is what Megasquirt themselves say about the flapper:
[i]We don’t recommend using the Flapper Injector System as it is.
On 'V8 Flapper' systems we suggest you find a 'Hotwire' Inlet & Injector assembly and upgrade. These can be sourced sometimes reasonably cheaply, and offer a vast improvement over the 'Flapper' items.[/i]
You should be able to get a secondhand Holley 390 and manifold for maybe £250-300. You'll need to throw a couple of hundred at a rolling road session - you'd have to do this with Megasquirt anyway. Keep the injection system for next owner if they want to switch back. That's if you want to keep the car because you love it that much and you genuinely think there is nothing else out there that will be such an event to drive (this is not true btw).
You know that if you start throwing big money at it you'll never see the return and at the end of the day it's not a SEAC or big money car. I think really you want to sell it(?). You've experienced genuine bhp now with the Merc - on paper it shouldn't be any quicker but you know that's far from the truth, especially in the crucial overtaking mid ranges 30-70 and all that where you also know it'll crush your 390. If you want a toy sell the wedge and get, as an example, a 7 replica with 180-200 zetec or similar for about 6k - seriously a wedge wouldn't know which way it went (nor woudl your Merc) and you'd be grinning like a nutter.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND....if the wedge genuinely makes you feel like below then you need to keep it
I just found this in the thread about Lambo Murcielago - read on *ahem*
broadside said:
I drove one of these at Bruntingthorpe on a Dream Drives day that I has treated myself to for a milestone birthday. It was the first flappy paddle gearbox car I had driven and had been looking forward to it for weeks.
Imagine my huge disappointment at the end of the drive. I'd driven it for a few laps and had given it plenty of beans down the straights and through most of the corners when the opportunity arose. I'd spent the first lap or so getting the feel of the car and pushed on. I was hitting over 150mph on the longest of the straights........and yet it felt dead......it didn't feel like it had any character to me. I have thought long and hard about my feelings on this car and still can't get to grips with why I disliked it so much, even six plus years after I drove it.
It looks phenomenal and sounds good too but the actual driving of it was a let down. Maybe you shouldn't meet your heroes!
I could only compare it against the car I had most experience of at the time which was my TVR 450SE. The TVR had bags of chactacter, was loud, was quick, but no where near Lamborghini quick and every drive was an event, so why did I not like the Lambo?
After much contemplation I came to the conclusion that the Lamborghini was just too competent at what it did. It could corner as if on rails, accelerated at a stupid rate of knots and was incredibly stable at high speeds........and that's why I think I came away feeling numb from the experience. I did not feel part of the car, I wasn't involved, I did not think for a moment that it would spit me off the track exiting a corner under power, it wasn't scary enough or challenging enough to drive to make me respect it.........the Lambo was just too well engineered and competent, it was too German and had had its Italianess engineered out. It did not feel special once in the drivers seat.
My mate and a guy that was in my group of three on the day came to the same conclusion as well. Out of the three cars we each drove that day the Aston V8 Vantage was on the top of the list with the Murcialago and Ferrari in joint 2nd.
My point of view may seem weird to most, but if I were able to spend a lot of money on a car it would not be on this one. If I was was offered one for free of course I'd have it but I'd probably sell it soon afterwards, buy my old TVR back and move to a bigger house!
The decision is yours...!!Imagine my huge disappointment at the end of the drive. I'd driven it for a few laps and had given it plenty of beans down the straights and through most of the corners when the opportunity arose. I'd spent the first lap or so getting the feel of the car and pushed on. I was hitting over 150mph on the longest of the straights........and yet it felt dead......it didn't feel like it had any character to me. I have thought long and hard about my feelings on this car and still can't get to grips with why I disliked it so much, even six plus years after I drove it.
It looks phenomenal and sounds good too but the actual driving of it was a let down. Maybe you shouldn't meet your heroes!
I could only compare it against the car I had most experience of at the time which was my TVR 450SE. The TVR had bags of chactacter, was loud, was quick, but no where near Lamborghini quick and every drive was an event, so why did I not like the Lambo?
After much contemplation I came to the conclusion that the Lamborghini was just too competent at what it did. It could corner as if on rails, accelerated at a stupid rate of knots and was incredibly stable at high speeds........and that's why I think I came away feeling numb from the experience. I did not feel part of the car, I wasn't involved, I did not think for a moment that it would spit me off the track exiting a corner under power, it wasn't scary enough or challenging enough to drive to make me respect it.........the Lambo was just too well engineered and competent, it was too German and had had its Italianess engineered out. It did not feel special once in the drivers seat.
My mate and a guy that was in my group of three on the day came to the same conclusion as well. Out of the three cars we each drove that day the Aston V8 Vantage was on the top of the list with the Murcialago and Ferrari in joint 2nd.
My point of view may seem weird to most, but if I were able to spend a lot of money on a car it would not be on this one. If I was was offered one for free of course I'd have it but I'd probably sell it soon afterwards, buy my old TVR back and move to a bigger house!
Edited by smash on Friday 29th August 10:34
Edited by smash on Friday 29th August 11:28
smash said:
Waiting with baited breath to see the evidence that "a good EFi flapper will easily outperform a carb setup..." Mappable Megasquirt I'd accept but not the Lucas flapper. And the problem with Megasquirt is to do it on a budget (i.e. less than going carb) you're retaining some of the 30 year old components you want to get rid.
You should be able to get a secondhand Holley 390 and manifold for maybe £250-300. You'll need to throw a couple of hundred at a rolling road session - you'd have to do this with Megasquirt anyway. Keep the injection system for next owner if they want to switch back. That's if you want to keep the car because you love it that much and you genuinely think there is nothing else out there that will be such an event to drive (this is not true btw).
You know that if you start throwing big money at it you'll never see the return and at the end of the day it's not a SEAC or big money car. I think really you want to sell it(?). You've experienced genuine bhp now with the Merc - on paper it shouldn't be any quicker but you know that's far from the truth, especially in the crucial overtaking mid ranges 30-70 and all that where you also know it'll crush your 390. If you want a toy sell the wedge and get, as an example, a 7 replica with 180-200 zetec or similar for about 6k - seriously a wedge wouldn't know which way it went (nor woudl your Merc) and you'd be grinning like a nutter.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND....if the wedge genuinely makes you feel like below then you need to keep it
I just found this in the thread about Lambo Murcielago - read on *ahem*
Excellent point, well made.You should be able to get a secondhand Holley 390 and manifold for maybe £250-300. You'll need to throw a couple of hundred at a rolling road session - you'd have to do this with Megasquirt anyway. Keep the injection system for next owner if they want to switch back. That's if you want to keep the car because you love it that much and you genuinely think there is nothing else out there that will be such an event to drive (this is not true btw).
You know that if you start throwing big money at it you'll never see the return and at the end of the day it's not a SEAC or big money car. I think really you want to sell it(?). You've experienced genuine bhp now with the Merc - on paper it shouldn't be any quicker but you know that's far from the truth, especially in the crucial overtaking mid ranges 30-70 and all that where you also know it'll crush your 390. If you want a toy sell the wedge and get, as an example, a 7 replica with 180-200 zetec or similar for about 6k - seriously a wedge wouldn't know which way it went (nor woudl your Merc) and you'd be grinning like a nutter.
BUT ON THE OTHER HAND....if the wedge genuinely makes you feel like below then you need to keep it
I just found this in the thread about Lambo Murcielago - read on *ahem*
broadside said:
Great stuff
The decision is yours...!!As a Doctor (I am not a Doctor), the symptoms you describe point towards 'Easy-itis'.
I think we've all gone through it at some point. A few years back I took possession of a new Insignia (not the same league, but bear with me), which I found extremely comfortable, had a reasonable amount of poke and was just a much easier drive.
I took to using the Insignia for everything, even those little jaunts out to the local country pub; just because it was easier. Suddenly 12 months had passed and I realised I hadn't once used the TVR in that time. It quickly occured to me that I actually didn't miss using it and I should probably sell it.
So I start tinkering with it; the usual stuff, cleaning it up, checking brakes, tyres, electrics etc, all with a view to selling it.
My GF mentions that she needs to pop to see her mother (some 90 minutes away), so I decide the TVR needs a bit of a shake down run and some miles on it before I put her up for sale.
10 minutes.
Within 10 minutes of driving the TVR again, I realised that nothing else I own gives me the same rush, that butterflies-in-your-stomach feeling that you only get when driving something a little bit emotive. By God do TVRs have some flaws, but that is all forgotten when you turn that engine over and you hear the burble from the back. That kick in the small of your back when you floor it and the pops and bangs when you lift off.
You might thing your new Merc ticks all the boxes, but you need to ask yourself; do you get that tingelling sensation, that rush of blood when you open it up?
If you do, then sell the wedge; but I think we all know what the real answer is....
I tend to agree with the above posts which imply that you would regret selling the 390. I genuinely don't think that there is another car that could replace it (apart from another TVR). There is now, of course, faster machinery but in most modern performance cars, the sensation of acceleration/speed is greatly reduced whereas the wedges have the complete works; noise, great performance (by 1980's standards), smell (fumes/petrol etc !)and you feel like you are doing 80 when you actually doing 50 so my vote would be to keep the 390. Good luck with it !!
c pryor said:
I tend to agree with the above posts which imply that you would regret selling the 390. I genuinely don't think that there is another car that could replace it (apart from another TVR). There is now, of course, faster machinery but in most modern performance cars, the sensation of acceleration/speed is greatly reduced whereas the wedges have the complete works; noise, great performance (by 1980's standards), smell (fumes/petrol etc !)and you feel like you are doing 80 when you actually doing 50 so my vote would be to keep the 390. Good luck with it !!
I definitely agree, especially with the fumes
All, thank you for ALL the posts. I intend to get the old girl up and running at the weekend
PMSL!!
And while all "that" is going on he'll force you to listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt_lEknp9tk
And while all "that" is going on he'll force you to listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt_lEknp9tk
See, that's why I said "consider", so that my arse was protected 
- some good points above, but they all support the idea there's lots of ways to go (even up to selling you wedge if you really want to 
).
No, you'll probably never get your money back, but that's the price of owning classic vehicles....
(Me ? as I said elsewhere, if it was a 'manufactured' car, I would probably have a BMW Alpina, which I reckon are one of the most understated powerhouses available)
- some good points above, but they all support the idea there's lots of ways to go (even up to selling you wedge if you really want to ).No, you'll probably never get your money back, but that's the price of owning classic vehicles....
(Me ? as I said elsewhere, if it was a 'manufactured' car, I would probably have a BMW Alpina, which I reckon are one of the most understated powerhouses available)
Should not a well=fettled 390 run away from a gargantuan S500 up to 100mph or so? Power/weight ratio being what it is, LT77 gearchanges being a variable.
S500 reliable? Count the number of ECUs. 1999 car has probably missed the bio-degradable engine wiring harness, but has probably also missed the very best Merc 500 engine by a year or so.
Visit some of the Merc forums to read of owners throwing a lot more money at the cars.
S500 reliable? Count the number of ECUs. 1999 car has probably missed the bio-degradable engine wiring harness, but has probably also missed the very best Merc 500 engine by a year or so.
Visit some of the Merc forums to read of owners throwing a lot more money at the cars.
Ian have a read of these threads - 3.5 EFI landy owners fed up with running problems and all cured by switching to carb. You will NOT lose any power after the carb's been rolling roaded (if it were a decent modern injection the loss would only be about 3% max).
http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4764...
http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5447...
And from the wedge forum - you're already half way there with the mallory... :
http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4764...
http://forum.lro.com/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5447...
And from the wedge forum - you're already half way there with the mallory... :
GV said:
I converted my Wedge 350i to an Edelbrock Carb with an Offehasuer dual plane manifold. I aslo did away with the crap Lucas Dizzy swapping it for a Mallory Unilite with a Hyfire 6AL CD Box with Promaster coil. Result - blisttering throttle response in any gear easy maintenance and above all - simple fault finding diagnostics. The problem I have is what to badge my Wedge now the 'i' has gone from the 350. The Hyfire is soon to be upgraded to a Petronix as their product provides a stronger spark right up to the rev limit as opposed to 3000 rpm.
To set your car up you will need to throw away your fuel pump, your EFi loom and all the other electronic bits and pieces. You will need a new valley gasket, throttle return spring and a fuel pump pushing out lower pressure for the carb. Your carb may have to be re-jetted depending on your engine cc. If going for the Mallory Unilite you will need the drive gear for the dizzy and an uprated coil (Mallory). Your rev counter may need to be rewired off the Unilite.
Drop me a line and I can talk you through it. My other bit of advice is to shop around for prices in the UK as the usaul outlets are pricey. Better still, if you know someone travelling to the USA give them a shopping list and you will save loads.
In terms of refinement a lumpy tickover is noticeable - but I put that down to not having the setup tuned to get its maximum value. Otherwise it is well worth the investment with no loss to power - if not better performance...
Brand new carb and manifold is £510 plus a couple of hundred on the rollers so not cheap but pretty much maintenance free thereafter .....priceless! lol To set your car up you will need to throw away your fuel pump, your EFi loom and all the other electronic bits and pieces. You will need a new valley gasket, throttle return spring and a fuel pump pushing out lower pressure for the carb. Your carb may have to be re-jetted depending on your engine cc. If going for the Mallory Unilite you will need the drive gear for the dizzy and an uprated coil (Mallory). Your rev counter may need to be rewired off the Unilite.
Drop me a line and I can talk you through it. My other bit of advice is to shop around for prices in the UK as the usaul outlets are pricey. Better still, if you know someone travelling to the USA give them a shopping list and you will save loads.
In terms of refinement a lumpy tickover is noticeable - but I put that down to not having the setup tuned to get its maximum value. Otherwise it is well worth the investment with no loss to power - if not better performance...
Edited by smash on Sunday 31st August 19:47
I can see why the 390 is driving you mad Ian, it's a right PIA if you can't use/enjoy the car. I'm struggling with my 350i at the moment, I want a reliable usable car and the flapper + Lucas distributer is driving me mad. I considered a carb but that seems a retrograde step and still leaves the outdated ignition system. A carb + manifold is not cheap either, I wouldn't consider secondhand as you have to ask yourself why it was removed from it's original home and you don't know what you're starting with.
I'm contemplating megasquirt; I'm attracted by a modern ignition system plus the ability to play tunes with a laptop - pun intended... It's a well trodden road in Land Rover circles and a kit of bits is not much more than a carb and manifold. I feel a winter project coming on.
I'm contemplating megasquirt; I'm attracted by a modern ignition system plus the ability to play tunes with a laptop - pun intended... It's a well trodden road in Land Rover circles and a kit of bits is not much more than a carb and manifold. I feel a winter project coming on.
Serious question, information please....
Can you guys tell me why a 'flapper' is so bad ?? (I am assuming this is a 'mass flow' meter type with vane, as early Ford Efi systems, like the 2.9 V6 EEC-IV). Is it the flapper itself, or the controller ??
I can truly understand the old dizzy setup being woeful after a bit of wear, but I thought the Vane/flapper meter(s) themselves weren't that bad ??? (bearing in mind that Ford used Bosch units, I don't know if 390 was a Lucas one)
Can you guys tell me why a 'flapper' is so bad ?? (I am assuming this is a 'mass flow' meter type with vane, as early Ford Efi systems, like the 2.9 V6 EEC-IV). Is it the flapper itself, or the controller ??
I can truly understand the old dizzy setup being woeful after a bit of wear, but I thought the Vane/flapper meter(s) themselves weren't that bad ??? (bearing in mind that Ford used Bosch units, I don't know if 390 was a Lucas one)
It's only a pain because the 4CU doesn't have a diagnostic facility and it runs dynamically, so it's quite difficult to diagnose the root cause of faults.
When it's running well, the flapper is a good and reliable system.
What we could do with is a bench testing facility for 4CU's so we can check the ECU itself, and a plug-in diagnostic unit to test all the input sensors etc.
I've been reading through problem posts on here for some time, and apart from the list of things to check that HJ2 posts up regularly, the wedge also suffers from bad earths when the straps corrode, wiring looms that are turning brittle, and iffy earthing to the ignition coil.
When it's running well, the flapper is a good and reliable system.
What we could do with is a bench testing facility for 4CU's so we can check the ECU itself, and a plug-in diagnostic unit to test all the input sensors etc.
I've been reading through problem posts on here for some time, and apart from the list of things to check that HJ2 posts up regularly, the wedge also suffers from bad earths when the straps corrode, wiring looms that are turning brittle, and iffy earthing to the ignition coil.
c pryor said:
I tend to agree with the above posts which imply that you would regret selling the 390. I genuinely don't think that there is another car that could replace it (apart from another TVR). There is now, of course, faster machinery but in most modern performance cars, the sensation of acceleration/speed is greatly reduced whereas the wedges have the complete works; noise, great performance (by 1980's standards), smell (fumes/petrol etc !)and you feel like you are doing 80 when you actually doing 50 so my vote would be to keep the 390. Good luck with it !!
Completely agree with this. I drive a Honda CRV at work which at triple digit speed feels the same as at half the speed, whereas a Wedge at 70 feels like it's going at twice that speed!RCK, I'm not sure that the flapper system is truly 'bad' but for me it's the economics that are driving thoughts of megasquirt. I have a 27 year old car that defies all attempts to make it reliable; I have suspicions that both the ECU and the flapper unit are past their best, the wiring is dodgy and the ignition system has out of calibration advance springs and a very tenuous connection to the crankshaft position via a chain drive and bevel gears. I could attempt to replace all of the above with new/reconditioned items but I feel I'd be chasing my tail in an expensive and time consuming manner. That's pretty much what I have been doing for the last few years!
An MS system that replaces the flapper,ECU, distributer etc, that controls the fueling via a Lambda sensor and has fully programable ignition seems a very attractive proposition.
Come to think of it, the flapper system is 'open loop' and later systems that use Lambda sensors are closed loop control, so surely must be a huge improvement?
An MS system that replaces the flapper,ECU, distributer etc, that controls the fueling via a Lambda sensor and has fully programable ignition seems a very attractive proposition.
Come to think of it, the flapper system is 'open loop' and later systems that use Lambda sensors are closed loop control, so surely must be a huge improvement?
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