Anyone using Amethyst setup ?
Discussion
Hi Andy...I invested in this same system..It didn't come with any instructions and there are diodes that you need to buy..You would think for 10p they would include them in the kit..I had to phone them to get fitting instructions and TBH it was hilarious..I rang up and asked to speak to someone about it and a guy in a northern accent said.."Oh heck..I don't wanna disturb him as he is working on a car at the moment"..So i said "Well i need to speak to him please"..He then sighed heavily and i heard.."Craig"..To which i heard a reply...(In an aggressive manner).."What do you bloody want now"...And before the chap on the phone could say.."Theres a chap on phone asking....." I heard.."Give it hear"...I was really trying hard not to laugh...Anyway he said..Its never been tested on a V6 Cologne although i think he said it was on the Essex...There are no maps for the fuelling so after we worked out how it worked the basic parameters were programmed in from a Ford workshop manual...The system worked for about a day and then failed miserably!..If you want my honest opinion don't waste your money...But give them a ring and ask for someone to explain it to you...Its worth it just for the chuckle factor....
Here is some of the info...There is a lot of other stuff in there that i wished i had checked out...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Here is some of the info...There is a lot of other stuff in there that i wished i had checked out...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thanks Zig - I have had a good look at their web site, and downloaded the instruction manual (in PDF).
One thing that I could see immediately it's a bit crude.....
What I mean by that is that you program the ignition advance via RPM in one set of numbers (just like the way the dizzy springs work), and then a separate set for vac advance via MAP or throttle.
It appears that those two values are then just added together. Not even a table....
Instructions aren't clear about negative values either - I guess you must be able to enter them in the MAP version for a boosted engine ? But it doesn't say so...
Even the very first EEC-IV from Ford had a proper 2 dimensional table (RPM one side, throttle or flow on other), in fact the first Granada one (1985 2.8) had several (hot,cold,etc) and it used them to come up wih a final timing.
So even ONE 2d table would be a better answer.
I looked at the MegaJolt too, but it's always for a no dizzy setup with multiple coils and a toothed wheel, so costs more, and you have to attach timing wheel to crank pulley. Those cast 2.8 Pulleys are already a bit fragile and prone to chipping...I don't want to have to drill one....
Zig, did you get your money back ? Just one day is AWFUL....
One thing that I could see immediately it's a bit crude.....
What I mean by that is that you program the ignition advance via RPM in one set of numbers (just like the way the dizzy springs work), and then a separate set for vac advance via MAP or throttle.
It appears that those two values are then just added together. Not even a table....
Instructions aren't clear about negative values either - I guess you must be able to enter them in the MAP version for a boosted engine ? But it doesn't say so...
Even the very first EEC-IV from Ford had a proper 2 dimensional table (RPM one side, throttle or flow on other), in fact the first Granada one (1985 2.8) had several (hot,cold,etc) and it used them to come up wih a final timing.
So even ONE 2d table would be a better answer.
I looked at the MegaJolt too, but it's always for a no dizzy setup with multiple coils and a toothed wheel, so costs more, and you have to attach timing wheel to crank pulley. Those cast 2.8 Pulleys are already a bit fragile and prone to chipping...I don't want to have to drill one....
Zig, did you get your money back ? Just one day is AWFUL....
Hi Andy
Unfortunately it peeved me so much that i cut the wires, Threw it to the floor at the Ford garage and stamped on it with my size 12 kipper..Revenge is sweet nonetheless...
Yes i could of quibbled for ever trying to get money back but i think the reason why they don't supply the diode for the ignition variant?...Is that it stated in the return policy that there would be NO REFUND if
1. Fitted
2. Modified
3. Or damaged.
Unfortunately you have to fit it...Fit the Diode..Im still not positive what that was for...
..Probably the clause for NO REFUND!
I went back to the mechanical dizzy but with a boost vacuum from a SAAB Turbo...The main ambition with the supercharging of Delilah was to have a modern ignition system controlling an old engine but dealing with the ADVANCE/RETARD of the timing quicker than the mechanical one...I did look at "Mega jolt"...MS...And a few others that would of required coil packs..ECU and loom...Yes most require a "Trigger wheel" welded to the crank pulley and a MAP sensor for an aftermarket ECU...I know its more bucks but do a lot of research into what would be the best solution for your project...You know where you are with the leccy....
Im sure you would be able to get a steel crank pulley made?...
Thing is all this type of work is expensive...It shouldn't be really but it is.....
It will be interesting to see was you choose but please...NOT AMETHYST !!
Oooops i forgot to say....You have a very basic map set up..You enter the base idle and advance and retard figures in small increments..As said it is a VERY BASIC map..It can be saved and you can programme 4-5...But when i think of it now it had no need for that at all as it was totally useless..As said they only ever had done a test on a V6 Essex 3.0ltr..Nothing with forced induction....They even asked me to send them the map once i had found a good balance...The only balance they were interested in is a BANK one...Tossers....
Unfortunately it peeved me so much that i cut the wires, Threw it to the floor at the Ford garage and stamped on it with my size 12 kipper..Revenge is sweet nonetheless...
Yes i could of quibbled for ever trying to get money back but i think the reason why they don't supply the diode for the ignition variant?...Is that it stated in the return policy that there would be NO REFUND if
1. Fitted
2. Modified
3. Or damaged.
Unfortunately you have to fit it...Fit the Diode..Im still not positive what that was for...
..Probably the clause for NO REFUND!I went back to the mechanical dizzy but with a boost vacuum from a SAAB Turbo...The main ambition with the supercharging of Delilah was to have a modern ignition system controlling an old engine but dealing with the ADVANCE/RETARD of the timing quicker than the mechanical one...I did look at "Mega jolt"...MS...And a few others that would of required coil packs..ECU and loom...Yes most require a "Trigger wheel" welded to the crank pulley and a MAP sensor for an aftermarket ECU...I know its more bucks but do a lot of research into what would be the best solution for your project...You know where you are with the leccy....
Im sure you would be able to get a steel crank pulley made?...
Thing is all this type of work is expensive...It shouldn't be really but it is.....
It will be interesting to see was you choose but please...NOT AMETHYST !!
Oooops i forgot to say....You have a very basic map set up..You enter the base idle and advance and retard figures in small increments..As said it is a VERY BASIC map..It can be saved and you can programme 4-5...But when i think of it now it had no need for that at all as it was totally useless..As said they only ever had done a test on a V6 Essex 3.0ltr..Nothing with forced induction....They even asked me to send them the map once i had found a good balance...The only balance they were interested in is a BANK one...Tossers....
Edited by mrzigazaga on Sunday 26th October 18:28
RCK974X said:
I looked at the MegaJolt too, but it's always for a no dizzy setup with multiple coils and a toothed wheel, so costs more, and you have to attach timing wheel to crank pulley.
But it gives you reliable(EDIS), well documented and supported, fault tolerant (defaults to 10deg btdc) and a fully mapable system and it's only a small step to add fuel to complete the process.cinquecento said:
RCK974X said:
I looked at the MegaJolt too, but it's always for a no dizzy setup with multiple coils and a toothed wheel, so costs more, and you have to attach timing wheel to crank pulley.
But it gives you reliable(EDIS), well documented and supported, fault tolerant (defaults to 10deg btdc) and a fully mapable system and it's only a small step to add fuel to complete the process.cinquecento said:
But it gives you reliable(EDIS), well documented and supported, fault tolerant (defaults to 10deg btdc) and a fully mapable system and it's only a small step to add fuel to complete the process.
Very True. I wasn't knocking the Megajolt as such, just that it's a much bigger change, and it requires engineering mods.
Further, I'm not sure there's enough room in front of the crank for another wheel, and my crank pulley already has a chip in it (which seems to be common).
Early 2.8 wedges are so cozy there it's hard to change the fanbelt !
It's just a shame to me that there isn't a simpler [good] solution.
Whilst I'm here - I noticed that the Megajolt has only one marker (missing tooth) - does this mean engine has to crank by a full revolution before it can spark ??
Anyone got a spare crank pulley ??
mrzigazaga said:
Hi Andy
Unfortunately it peeved me so much that i cut the wires, Threw it to the floor at the Ford garage and stamped on it with my size 12 kipper..Revenge is sweet nonetheless...
Yes i could of quibbled for ever trying to get money back but i think the reason why they don't supply the diode for the ignition variant?...Is that it stated in the return policy that there would be NO REFUND if
1. Fitted
2. Modified
3. Or damaged.
Unfortunately you have to fit it...Fit the Diode..Im still not positive what that was for.....Probably the clause for NO REFUND! <snip>
Yes, but I thought that as the product proved completely useless (faulty, not fit for purpose etc), it overrides that kind of disclaimer ?? And you followed THEIR INSTRUCTIONS. Still - a lump hammer is more satisfying. Unfortunately it peeved me so much that i cut the wires, Threw it to the floor at the Ford garage and stamped on it with my size 12 kipper..Revenge is sweet nonetheless...
Yes i could of quibbled for ever trying to get money back but i think the reason why they don't supply the diode for the ignition variant?...Is that it stated in the return policy that there would be NO REFUND if
1. Fitted
2. Modified
3. Or damaged.
Unfortunately you have to fit it...Fit the Diode..Im still not positive what that was for...
..Probably the clause for NO REFUND! <snip>
Diode - diode is because a reluctor pickup produces voltage pulses BOTH ways, and so the diode 'chops' the negative half of the pulse. A lot of transistor/logic chips don't like 'reverse' pulses .... You are right though, why isn't it included by default ?
Hmmm... did you put the diode in the right way round ?
Edited by RCK974X on Sunday 26th October 18:54
RCK974X said:
Hmmm... did you put the diode in the right way round ?
Well i got emailed at the Ford garage as to the wiring diagram while we were fitting it..I had to phone up again and talk the guy called Craig...I think it was Craig???...When i asked to speak to him again the guy that answered the phone said.."Oh he won't like me keep disturbing him"...And when he called him i heard him shout.."What does he want now"...It was quite funny as we had him on speaker phone and all three of us at the garage were pissing ourselves...The fitment of the diode was emailed to us at the garage while we were working on Delilah and even the guy at the garage who deals with the auto electrics spoke to the guy on the phone to confirm what it was actually for as he was a bit bemused..So yeah it was put on right...What about getting a steel pulley machined with the trigger wheel attached to the front...Like something like this Cosworth pulley...
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&...
Or adapt this..This is for a Capri..You would then weld the trigger wheel to the front..
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Steel-4-Front-Crank-Pull...
The EDIS needs to see the missing tooth as this is a fixed number of degrees before TDC, so if the engine stopped just after the missing tooth it would need a full revolution to know where where the engine is in it's cycle, this is the same with anything using a missing tooth type crank pickup.
I jolted my 400 a couple of years back and it's been great, the timing is rock solid and even if the MJ box packs up the EDIS runs limp home at 10 degrees. I also added the internal rev limiter and some shift lights, Oh an it's a proper map arrangement !
I jolted my 400 a couple of years back and it's been great, the timing is rock solid and even if the MJ box packs up the EDIS runs limp home at 10 degrees. I also added the internal rev limiter and some shift lights, Oh an it's a proper map arrangement !
It's a shame they have stopped supplying them in kit form, I recall mine only cost £70 as a kit with the rev limiter option, even with shipping and import tax etc it came in under £100. EDIS8 came from US ebay coil packs from u-pull-it and trigger wheel from trigger-wheels.co.uk, with wiring etc all in was under 200 notes.
The RV8 uses a dizzy with an 8-point magnetic 'star' and a sensor coil.
A trigger wheel has the advantage that you get higher resolution and it's tightly coupled to the crank.
I always thought you could use the ring gear on the flywheel as a trigger wheel. To get the absolute crank position, grind off 7 points from the original dizzy star so you get one pulse per revolution. Or alternatively, use the crank sensor on the bracket next to the front pulley, if it's still there.
Would a similar scheme work on the V6?
A trigger wheel has the advantage that you get higher resolution and it's tightly coupled to the crank.
I always thought you could use the ring gear on the flywheel as a trigger wheel. To get the absolute crank position, grind off 7 points from the original dizzy star so you get one pulse per revolution. Or alternatively, use the crank sensor on the bracket next to the front pulley, if it's still there.
Would a similar scheme work on the V6?
I guess that's what known as a 'reluctor' type pickup (small coil and magnet per cyl), which is the same as the 2.8 before Efi setup, except of course it only has 6 points instead of 8.
The EFi dizzy was a Hall effect one, which was fixed timing, as EEC controlled ign timing.
It had a kind of slot wheel inside, but again only with a pin/tooth per cyl.
Ford also had a 'narrow slot' option, so that Cyl 1 was marked by a shorter pulse.
(I think it's shorter, not longer, but it doesn't really matter, it's marked).
From what I read I think that the Megasquirt can utilise the narrow slot as a sync marker.
It occurred to me that the 36 crank slot with wasted spark is very clever, as it supports anywhere from 4 to 12 cylinders without any mods, just a different coil/spark unit, and it's always a whole number of teeth between firings
4 cyl = 18 teeth, 6 cyl = 12, 8 cyl = 9, etc, but 5/10 cyls doesn't work !!
By comparison, the 3.8 (Buick) V6 from my Holden Commodore has TWO slotted rings at the back of the crank and the unit is supposed to be able to tell where it is almost immediately (can't remember the slot combinations something like 18 and 6 ?)
The EFi dizzy was a Hall effect one, which was fixed timing, as EEC controlled ign timing.
It had a kind of slot wheel inside, but again only with a pin/tooth per cyl.
Ford also had a 'narrow slot' option, so that Cyl 1 was marked by a shorter pulse.
(I think it's shorter, not longer, but it doesn't really matter, it's marked).
From what I read I think that the Megasquirt can utilise the narrow slot as a sync marker.
It occurred to me that the 36 crank slot with wasted spark is very clever, as it supports anywhere from 4 to 12 cylinders without any mods, just a different coil/spark unit, and it's always a whole number of teeth between firings
4 cyl = 18 teeth, 6 cyl = 12, 8 cyl = 9, etc, but 5/10 cyls doesn't work !!
By comparison, the 3.8 (Buick) V6 from my Holden Commodore has TWO slotted rings at the back of the crank and the unit is supposed to be able to tell where it is almost immediately (can't remember the slot combinations something like 18 and 6 ?)
Edited by RCK974X on Monday 27th October 20:59
Gassing Station | Wedges | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff