V6 water pump gasket
Discussion
Fitted the thermostat today, no leaks. But now i have a new leak from the water pump. It only leaked when the engine was off though, not a drop with engine on?!
Anyone got a part number for a new gasket? The bible warns there are two and i dont want the wrong one obviously. And why not leak when engine is running?
The car has sat for over a month, not been turned over due to lack of stat housing and hassnt had any water in it over the freezing snowy period weve had.
Cheers
Marcus
Anyone got a part number for a new gasket? The bible warns there are two and i dont want the wrong one obviously. And why not leak when engine is running?
The car has sat for over a month, not been turned over due to lack of stat housing and hassnt had any water in it over the freezing snowy period weve had.
Cheers
Marcus
Hi Marcus....Are you definitely sure that the water pump gasket is leaking...You haven't spilt water when re-filling or water got frozen at some point on draining and has melted now?...Also strange why it should leak only when cold which could mean that the sealant has gone between the gasket or it might need nipping up a bit as its contracting when cold and creating a gap...
Im not aware of two different water pump gaskets for the 2.8i V6 Cologne? I thought they were the same even for the 2.3 Cortina V6 cologne?...Any Capri mk3 2.8i..Granada 2.8i or sierra 2.8i should be fine...The 2.9 one is a little bit similar but the differences are big...
You might have to buy a bottom end gasket set as i couldn't find one singular...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-CAPRI-GRANADA-2-8-2...
Cheers...Ziga
Im not aware of two different water pump gaskets for the 2.8i V6 Cologne? I thought they were the same even for the 2.3 Cortina V6 cologne?...Any Capri mk3 2.8i..Granada 2.8i or sierra 2.8i should be fine...The 2.9 one is a little bit similar but the differences are big...
You might have to buy a bottom end gasket set as i couldn't find one singular...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-CAPRI-GRANADA-2-8-2...
Cheers...Ziga
Definitely the gasket and not the seal on the pulley shaft ?
Gaskets that have sat there quite happily for many years don't usually decide to start leaking
Don't know about the 2.8 but a lot of water pumps have a little hole in the casing so that if the seal does start to leak a bit the water can run out rather than wash the grease out of the bearing.
I've had a long and interesting time with Cologne water pumps Info - as far as I know -
There are at least 3 different 2.8 pumps, by length and whether they had viscous fans etc. but gaskets are the same.
The 2.3 used same gasket and pump(s). The very late pump (type 4) had a different gasket, which may well only be for the Efi version. The 2.9 is quite a bit different, gaskets and pump.
There are indeed 2 types of (2.8) WP gasket. The difference is tiny, the 1985 2.8 EFi version had one single bolt in a different place on the thermostat cover, because the heater outlet position was changed. Don't know if this happened to non-Efi versions. If you have a horizontal heater outlet (or almost so) then get the 'standard' early 2.3 and 2.8 gasket.
I have had a problem where the cam cover was bent/warped, and the pump did leak at gasket - bend was very slight, only showed up with a straight edge against the surface. Looked like someone had hit the thermostat bit..
The gasket sealing part is quite thin considering how long the pump casting is, with twists and turns in the casting. I always use gasket sealer on both sides of gasket.
I've also had two pumps which leaked from the centre bearing, despite the hole underneath...either they were faulty, or the hole gets gummed up, which happened on one pump, but not the other.
DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN FANBELT ! the bearing is actually too small, and fails very quickly as a result - I tighten the belt so that it only just stops squealing, and pumps seem to last longer...
Hope this info helps
There are at least 3 different 2.8 pumps, by length and whether they had viscous fans etc. but gaskets are the same.
The 2.3 used same gasket and pump(s). The very late pump (type 4) had a different gasket, which may well only be for the Efi version. The 2.9 is quite a bit different, gaskets and pump.
There are indeed 2 types of (2.8) WP gasket. The difference is tiny, the 1985 2.8 EFi version had one single bolt in a different place on the thermostat cover, because the heater outlet position was changed. Don't know if this happened to non-Efi versions. If you have a horizontal heater outlet (or almost so) then get the 'standard' early 2.3 and 2.8 gasket.
I have had a problem where the cam cover was bent/warped, and the pump did leak at gasket - bend was very slight, only showed up with a straight edge against the surface. Looked like someone had hit the thermostat bit..
The gasket sealing part is quite thin considering how long the pump casting is, with twists and turns in the casting. I always use gasket sealer on both sides of gasket.
I've also had two pumps which leaked from the centre bearing, despite the hole underneath...either they were faulty, or the hole gets gummed up, which happened on one pump, but not the other.
DO NOT OVERTIGHTEN FANBELT ! the bearing is actually too small, and fails very quickly as a result - I tighten the belt so that it only just stops squealing, and pumps seem to last longer...
Hope this info helps
Edited by RCK974X on Wednesday 14th January 18:40
Mmmm, could be that philpot, rck. It does seem to be coming from behind the pulley. I took a short video on my phone, so the quality isnt very good and the phone couldnt really get good access. Check it out on youtube, search for tvrmarcus1875 if you have time (dont know how to add a link - sorry).
I'll have another look tomorrow if it isnt snowing. Hopefully Mark is right and the sealant has expanded!
Cheers guys
marcus
Edited to add a couple of poor pics.
I'll have another look tomorrow if it isnt snowing. Hopefully Mark is right and the sealant has expanded!
Cheers guys
marcus
Edited to add a couple of poor pics.
Edited by marcus1875 on Wednesday 14th January 19:04
Edited by marcus1875 on Wednesday 14th January 19:07
Hi Marcus...
By the look of the video the water is coming from the bearing/Seal..Common cause as said having a fan belt that is too tight..I used to have around 10mm in total or 5mm from centre to outer each side worth of play, Also if you can twist it to 90 degrees then that is a good guide.
Although have you taken the top hoses off that go to the top water inlet housing...I just wonder how far up the water trail goes, If it starts/Stops at the pulley drive then its more likely to be the bearing/Seal...I believe that the complete housing is not that expensive...The coolant looks like dregs in the vid as it looks very rusty and this is normally sediment at the bottom....Have you flushed the block out at all?...I would and use a good blue antifreeze to the right ppm....
Video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZg1W8SMvzM
Actually after watching the vid a couple of times i can see at the start there is a very bad leak running into a container off the crank pulley...Why is it red?...I hope you haven't used red antifreeze...I seem to remember it not be any good for old cars...Also if its leaking that much i doubt if its the bearing..I can also see loads of what looks like blue hylomar on the underside of the water pump housing...has it been removed and if so was the gasket replaced or is it just sealant?....I would certainly whip that off and replace it mate...Especially if it is the bearing as that would have to be proper shot to leak that much!...Was this after it was run?....
By the look of the video the water is coming from the bearing/Seal..Common cause as said having a fan belt that is too tight..I used to have around 10mm in total or 5mm from centre to outer each side worth of play, Also if you can twist it to 90 degrees then that is a good guide.
Although have you taken the top hoses off that go to the top water inlet housing...I just wonder how far up the water trail goes, If it starts/Stops at the pulley drive then its more likely to be the bearing/Seal...I believe that the complete housing is not that expensive...The coolant looks like dregs in the vid as it looks very rusty and this is normally sediment at the bottom....Have you flushed the block out at all?...I would and use a good blue antifreeze to the right ppm....
Video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZg1W8SMvzM
Actually after watching the vid a couple of times i can see at the start there is a very bad leak running into a container off the crank pulley...Why is it red?...I hope you haven't used red antifreeze...I seem to remember it not be any good for old cars...Also if its leaking that much i doubt if its the bearing..I can also see loads of what looks like blue hylomar on the underside of the water pump housing...has it been removed and if so was the gasket replaced or is it just sealant?....I would certainly whip that off and replace it mate...Especially if it is the bearing as that would have to be proper shot to leak that much!...Was this after it was run?....
Edited by mrzigazaga on Wednesday 14th January 19:40
Edited by mrzigazaga on Wednesday 14th January 19:41
Hi Mark'
Nah this wasnt after a run. The engine was flushed in November, it has been sat a while tho. Unfortunately the rusty colour is down to the antifreeze i put in. Didnt realise the red coloured stuff was no good! I'll get some blue coloured stuff tomorrow.
The top hose was off when i refilled with coolant after replacing the stat housing. The water started leaking out before it came out the top pipe (in fact it never reached the top pipe).
The container you see is actually the top of my trolley jack, i'd jacked it up for better access to view from underneath.
The blue sealant was there when i bought the motor.
So I suppose it is the bearing seal then? I'll get a whole bottom set and do the whole lot.
cheers
marcus
p.s. how did you link the vid?
Nah this wasnt after a run. The engine was flushed in November, it has been sat a while tho. Unfortunately the rusty colour is down to the antifreeze i put in. Didnt realise the red coloured stuff was no good! I'll get some blue coloured stuff tomorrow.
The top hose was off when i refilled with coolant after replacing the stat housing. The water started leaking out before it came out the top pipe (in fact it never reached the top pipe).
The container you see is actually the top of my trolley jack, i'd jacked it up for better access to view from underneath.
The blue sealant was there when i bought the motor.
So I suppose it is the bearing seal then? I'll get a whole bottom set and do the whole lot.
cheers
marcus
p.s. how did you link the vid?
Hi mate..Dry it all off check all the clips, It just seems weird that it should leak when cold and you didn't notice it leaking from there when it was running previously?..Why did you remove the stat housings was that to replace a thermostat?...I know you put a post up previously about it...I will have a look...
Antifreeze:
Traditional blue ethylene glycol is toxic but a highly effective antifreeze and contains silicates as an inhibitor to help prevent corrosion in an engine with mixed metals in its make-up. Bluecol and Blue Star are well known brand names and both of these are declared suitable for ‘classic cars’ on their company websites. Be aware that there are also low or no-silicate ethylene glycol formulations (usually red) available which may not be suitable for all engines.
Propylene glycol is another well-known and less toxic antifreeze formulation and usually contains silicates but Comma, the main manufacturer, has now discontinued it in favour of an ethylene glycol product containing ‘bittering agents’ to make it less palatable and minimise the risk of accidental poisoning.
Both of the above products use inorganic additive technology (IAT) with iron and steel corrosion prevention provided by nitrites and nitrates, aluminium protection by silicates and phosphates and molybdates providing high lead solder protection, with borates helping to control acidity.
Recently problems have been reported concerning the use of antifreeze mixtures using Organic Acid Technology (OAT). OAT was introduced in the mid-1990s and the products are biodegradable, recyclable and do not contain either silicates or
..
phosphates and are designed to be longer lasting. However these products do seem to cause problems in older engines; over and above the ability of antifreeze to find the smallest crevice and leak, OAT antifreezes have been accused of destroying seals and gaskets and causing a great deal of damage in ‘old’ engines. For this reason the manufacturers of OAT antifreeze products do not recommend their use in historic and classic vehicles. These products are usually coloured red, pink or orange.
The final category is HOAT. These products use hybrid organic acid technology in an ethylene glycol base with some silicates in the formulation alongside the organic corrosion inhibitors. The product is usually coloured green and is not recommended for use in historic vehicles.
The Federation is still researching this problem but their advice at the moment is:
• Only use blue coloured IAT antifreeze in
historic vehicles.
• Only use OAT products (‘advanced’ or
‘long life’ antifreeze) if the vehicle used it when new and if specifically directed by the vehicle’s manufacturer.
• Never mix different types of antifreeze without thoroughly flushing out the system.
• Always replace the coolant within the time scale specified by the antifreeze manufacturer as the corrosion inhibitors break down over time.
This was taken from a recommendation for RV8 but it still applies to an older engine and I'm sure the colognes have mixed metals...Alloy with iron...etc..But as you can see the red can destroy seals so it might just mean that it has destroyed the sealant...Its worth removing it for further investigation...Get a new WP gasket and some RTV sealant and some BLUE antifreeze..(Un-mixed if you can)..Clean up all the facing edges and re-fit with new gasket and sealant....Allow to cure and run up to temp bleeding as needed with fan on "HOT"...If you still have a leak then its the bearing..I think there is an "O" ring in there that could of perished ...These are cheaper fixes but if the pump is knackered then its worth replacing...Its no fun doing the same job twice but sometime you have to and the second time its perfect!...I use an iMac so i can drag anything into here....
Antifreeze:
Traditional blue ethylene glycol is toxic but a highly effective antifreeze and contains silicates as an inhibitor to help prevent corrosion in an engine with mixed metals in its make-up. Bluecol and Blue Star are well known brand names and both of these are declared suitable for ‘classic cars’ on their company websites. Be aware that there are also low or no-silicate ethylene glycol formulations (usually red) available which may not be suitable for all engines.
Propylene glycol is another well-known and less toxic antifreeze formulation and usually contains silicates but Comma, the main manufacturer, has now discontinued it in favour of an ethylene glycol product containing ‘bittering agents’ to make it less palatable and minimise the risk of accidental poisoning.
Both of the above products use inorganic additive technology (IAT) with iron and steel corrosion prevention provided by nitrites and nitrates, aluminium protection by silicates and phosphates and molybdates providing high lead solder protection, with borates helping to control acidity.
Recently problems have been reported concerning the use of antifreeze mixtures using Organic Acid Technology (OAT). OAT was introduced in the mid-1990s and the products are biodegradable, recyclable and do not contain either silicates or
..
phosphates and are designed to be longer lasting. However these products do seem to cause problems in older engines; over and above the ability of antifreeze to find the smallest crevice and leak, OAT antifreezes have been accused of destroying seals and gaskets and causing a great deal of damage in ‘old’ engines. For this reason the manufacturers of OAT antifreeze products do not recommend their use in historic and classic vehicles. These products are usually coloured red, pink or orange.
The final category is HOAT. These products use hybrid organic acid technology in an ethylene glycol base with some silicates in the formulation alongside the organic corrosion inhibitors. The product is usually coloured green and is not recommended for use in historic vehicles.
The Federation is still researching this problem but their advice at the moment is:
• Only use blue coloured IAT antifreeze in
historic vehicles.
• Only use OAT products (‘advanced’ or
‘long life’ antifreeze) if the vehicle used it when new and if specifically directed by the vehicle’s manufacturer.
• Never mix different types of antifreeze without thoroughly flushing out the system.
• Always replace the coolant within the time scale specified by the antifreeze manufacturer as the corrosion inhibitors break down over time.
This was taken from a recommendation for RV8 but it still applies to an older engine and I'm sure the colognes have mixed metals...Alloy with iron...etc..But as you can see the red can destroy seals so it might just mean that it has destroyed the sealant...Its worth removing it for further investigation...Get a new WP gasket and some RTV sealant and some BLUE antifreeze..(Un-mixed if you can)..Clean up all the facing edges and re-fit with new gasket and sealant....Allow to cure and run up to temp bleeding as needed with fan on "HOT"...If you still have a leak then its the bearing..I think there is an "O" ring in there that could of perished ...These are cheaper fixes but if the pump is knackered then its worth replacing...Its no fun doing the same job twice but sometime you have to and the second time its perfect!...I use an iMac so i can drag anything into here....
Hmmm - didn't Unipart anitfreeze always used to be green? I always used to use that in the Rv8. All I seem to see now is blue stuff so my antifreeze is getting bluer... I never flush it out either, just top it up. If I have to dump it (e.g. right now it's out for the head work) then it goes back in, minus the sediment.
adam quantrill said:
Hmmm - didn't Unipart anitfreeze always used to be green? I always used to use that in the Rv8. All I seem to see now is blue stuff so my antifreeze is getting bluer... I never flush it out either, just top it up. If I have to dump it (e.g. right now it's out for the head work) then it goes back in, minus the sediment.
I think its okay to mix blue with green but not blue with red or green with red...As the guys say above it does very much look like that's a leak from the gasket, but I would take the pulley off (it's easy, loosen the 4 bolts, then slacken fanbelt) and have a good look to make sure it's not leaking out the centre bearing and running down. Leaks can be sneaky ! The pulley off will give you a better view anyway.
Sounds silly. but are you sure the nearest two bolts are tight ? It's worth a quick check of them all, typically once you have a leak, it's probably a new gasket, but worth a try ...don't overtighten though, they are only 6mm.
That pic does have a lot of Blue Hylomar (or equiv) around - did you put pump on, or could it be a bodge from previous owner ? Perhaps surface is damaged underneath ? Just my suggestions.....
I've got some yellow antifreeze in mine, but it is recommended for older engines - perhaps that's an NZ/Aus colour !
Yep - aluminium inlet mfold and thermostat housing means it should be treated as a 'mixed metal' engine.
Sounds silly. but are you sure the nearest two bolts are tight ? It's worth a quick check of them all, typically once you have a leak, it's probably a new gasket, but worth a try ...don't overtighten though, they are only 6mm.
That pic does have a lot of Blue Hylomar (or equiv) around - did you put pump on, or could it be a bodge from previous owner ? Perhaps surface is damaged underneath ? Just my suggestions.....
I've got some yellow antifreeze in mine, but it is recommended for older engines - perhaps that's an NZ/Aus colour !
Yep - aluminium inlet mfold and thermostat housing means it should be treated as a 'mixed metal' engine.
Well, got the gasket set, got the "blue" antifreeze. Got my tools out, bonnet off, at this point i lost the use of my fingers which turned numb and blue. F**k this i thought, packed everything up and went to the pub.
Anyone got heated mechs gloves or want to build me a heated garage?
I'll try again when man up!
Marcus
Anyone got heated mechs gloves or want to build me a heated garage?
I'll try again when man up!
Marcus
Well guys, i manned up and faced the cold. Took the pump of today, found there was no gasket, just a couple of small bits and the rest packed with sealant.
What do you make of the blades from the pump? They are covered in pits and black/rusty. Is it worth getting a new one or will that one be OK?
Cheers
Marcus
Well there is your problem mate...Not sure the pump should look like that, Looks like someone has modified the pump fins....I would buy a new not necessarily cheap part...There are variants in price as with everything mate but don't always assume cheap is a bargain....
Have a look through....
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
One on Flea:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-GRANADA-MK3-2-8-V6-...
PS: I would clean off all the crud on the mating surfaces...In fact i personally would flush the system for at least 30 mins before cleaning up the mating surfaces...
Have a look through....
http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&...
One on Flea:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FORD-GRANADA-MK3-2-8-V6-...
PS: I would clean off all the crud on the mating surfaces...In fact i personally would flush the system for at least 30 mins before cleaning up the mating surfaces...
Cheers Mark, Yup, flush and clean up next weekend. Tickover are shut till the 26th so i'll decide during the week.
The pumps been working fine tho so i may just clean it up as best i can and refit.
Cant believe someone would use a wee bit of gasket and pack the rest with sealant, still it worked for the last three years i've owned it without bursting!
Marcus
The pumps been working fine tho so i may just clean it up as best i can and refit.
Cant believe someone would use a wee bit of gasket and pack the rest with sealant, still it worked for the last three years i've owned it without bursting!
Marcus
If it cleans up then use it...Fit a new gasket with some sealant on both sides and torque it up gently using a tightening sequence similar to that of a head...Yeah sorry i forgot that Tickover will be shut, Its their annual skiing trip....It was probably the red antifreeze that killed the sealant....Cheers...Ziga
I'm not sure if that is modified, it's hard to see from the photo angle.... there were a couple of different fin styles...looks very mucky.
Checks....
First, is there any play at all in the water pump shaft (clamp the pump body carefully and try rocking the shaft by gripping both sides. If you can feel any play, replace it. It's not worth skimping.
Second, have a close look at the ground surface where the gasket goes, and make sure it's 1) flat 2) has no major corrosion or pitting. Good idea to lightly sand gasket face with some fine wet and dry to make sure there's no crud left. Do this on the block face as well.
Third, if you have a straight edge (long spirit level etc) it's worth a check that pump and block is flat.
Looking at the photo, block could probably do with a good wash out - get the hosepipe on it, and run until clear.
I would probably do the whole system, rad too. You might as well !
New gasket with a bit of sealer both sides.
Tighten bolts in sequence, I do the bigger 8mm ones first, just finger tight, then go around all the 6 mm ones, again finger tight, then go around all bolts two or three times until they are all tight. Seems like overkill, but it prevents any warping or gasket damage that way.
Then do the thermostat covers, be very gentle tightening the long bolts, the back threaded cover is only ally as well...and again, I do this in sequence. Make sure thermostat is seated properly, otherwise cover tabs can break - again if you finger tighten it first, you can tell if the cover isn't sitting square.
Checks....
First, is there any play at all in the water pump shaft (clamp the pump body carefully and try rocking the shaft by gripping both sides. If you can feel any play, replace it. It's not worth skimping.
Second, have a close look at the ground surface where the gasket goes, and make sure it's 1) flat 2) has no major corrosion or pitting. Good idea to lightly sand gasket face with some fine wet and dry to make sure there's no crud left. Do this on the block face as well.
Third, if you have a straight edge (long spirit level etc) it's worth a check that pump and block is flat.
Looking at the photo, block could probably do with a good wash out - get the hosepipe on it, and run until clear.
I would probably do the whole system, rad too. You might as well !
New gasket with a bit of sealer both sides.
Tighten bolts in sequence, I do the bigger 8mm ones first, just finger tight, then go around all the 6 mm ones, again finger tight, then go around all bolts two or three times until they are all tight. Seems like overkill, but it prevents any warping or gasket damage that way.
Then do the thermostat covers, be very gentle tightening the long bolts, the back threaded cover is only ally as well...and again, I do this in sequence. Make sure thermostat is seated properly, otherwise cover tabs can break - again if you finger tighten it first, you can tell if the cover isn't sitting square.
Edited by RCK974X on Monday 19th January 04:21
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