Smash's 390SE work so far
Discussion
celcius said:
Hi keith
Any news
Greg
No, getting very p'd off now. Deal with technician/mechanic mate was that TVR was a filler in job and not urgent, however since they've had the car ( 4 weeks now) they've only spent 2 hours on it. The plan was for 2 full days work on it last Thursday and Friday but a load of work came in so no work on the Wedge.Any news
Greg
Supposedly they were going to have a day on it yesterday but they've not rung so honestly don't know if they did put some hours in. I will chase them again tomorrow. Just want to drive the bloody thing!
Trailer it up to Wedg1e...He will have it sorted in no time...If he has the time that is...Id rather pay a fellow Wedger a few hundred squids than an unreliable garage...And you know its in the hands of someone who knows these cars and know what they are doing!....Sorry for putting you up there Ian but just saying what i would rather do...
Right an update - new starter motor fitted so it spins over well. Garage has checked all valve operation and the number 1 cylinder exhaust valve is not opening, but all others are all good. I've spoken to Smash and he did previously check the exhaust manifold temperature with a laser temperature gauge and at that stage supposedly all exhaust manifold branches were showing a consistent temperature which indicates that number 1 was firing. It might be as a result of sitting around and the tappet isn't pumping up. The investigation continues.........
Maybe a tappet is not holding pressure so value is staying closed, and only working with high oil pressure.
or maybe camshaft is gone. esp as #1 is the most common to fail.
you would be surprised how bad a cam can be and the engine will still work, but poorly. I had a cam that was not harden correctly and 10 of 16 lobes wore to nothing in 20 miles. but would still pull quite well upto 4k then just miss fire. I thought it was timing 1st esp as I was running an emerald ECU, for the 1st time.
or maybe camshaft is gone. esp as #1 is the most common to fail.
you would be surprised how bad a cam can be and the engine will still work, but poorly. I had a cam that was not harden correctly and 10 of 16 lobes wore to nothing in 20 miles. but would still pull quite well upto 4k then just miss fire. I thought it was timing 1st esp as I was running an emerald ECU, for the 1st time.
TVRleigh_BBWR said:
you would be surprised how bad a cam can be and the engine will still work, but poorly.
defo, this was the cam on my old silver wedge, was also running on 7 cylinders as a push road was snapped also......idled perfectly ok as had an emerald ecu which compensated for all the mess..... RIP
Blimey, what a mess! As Smash pretty much replaced everything else on the engine there's not much left that's original. Garage is going to get the engine up to temperature and then see if the valve is still not opening. We will take it from there. Glen hope the Chimp is going well. Cheers.
KKson said:
Blimey, what a mess! As Smash pretty much replaced everything else on the engine there's not much left that's original. Garage is going to get the engine up to temperature and then see if the valve is still not opening. We will take it from there. Glen hope the Chimp is going well. Cheers.
all good....turns out the big issue with the previous owner not being able to start the car was having the fuel and return pipes on the rail the wrong way round.......classic error but a very cheap fix :-)just got to sort of set of wheels out then its mot time
gmw9666 said:
all good....turns out the big issue with the previous owner not being able to start the car was having the fuel and return pipes on the rail the wrong way round.......classic error but a very cheap fix :-)
just got to sort of set of wheels out then its mot time
Will it be sorted by the 26th? Neil Garner open day?just got to sort of set of wheels out then its mot time
Right we're getting somewhere. After finding No 1 exhaust wasn't opening, the garage put everything back together and ran the engine up to temperature and then checked all of the exhaust outlet pipes temperatures. The front cylinders were all around 220 C with the back cylinders nearer 300C. With HT leads disconnected to the cylinders there was no noticeable difference in exhaust temperature. The manifold is tubular but the pipes are all inter-linked so heat is conducting through the manifold overall.
Next they took the HT lead off each cylinder in turn. When they took off No 1 there was no change to the misfire. When they took nos 2 to 8 off the engine ran even worse.
They then took the complete inlet off, exposing the camshaft and rotated the engine by hand to inspect the cam and each lobe and guess what - there is no lobe whatsoever present for No 1 exhaust valve - it is absolutely round with no sign that a lobe ever existed! This could well be the issue with continual misfire and the engine unwilling to rev. The cam is therefore coming out tomorrow and a new one and followers is needed.
The big question is what cam? As posted on the "cam thread" the engine is a John Eales unit with big valve heads and double valve springs. According to John Eales it would have had his JE101 camshaft originally which is a mild cam. I belive the Andy Rouse engines had the wilder H234 camshaft. John recommends a straight replacement with the mild JE101 (now known as the JDE2665) however this will only (?) give 245bhp if everything else is healthy. Dom at TVR Power recommends his 218 camshaft. I've heard good things about Realsteel's Cyclone and Typhoon and also V8 Developments "Stealth" camshaft. Ideally I want to get one ordered up tomorrow but I also one that will go straight in without any further machining. Anyone had issues or can recommend a suitbale slightly wild cam?
Cheers Keith
Next they took the HT lead off each cylinder in turn. When they took off No 1 there was no change to the misfire. When they took nos 2 to 8 off the engine ran even worse.
They then took the complete inlet off, exposing the camshaft and rotated the engine by hand to inspect the cam and each lobe and guess what - there is no lobe whatsoever present for No 1 exhaust valve - it is absolutely round with no sign that a lobe ever existed! This could well be the issue with continual misfire and the engine unwilling to rev. The cam is therefore coming out tomorrow and a new one and followers is needed.
The big question is what cam? As posted on the "cam thread" the engine is a John Eales unit with big valve heads and double valve springs. According to John Eales it would have had his JE101 camshaft originally which is a mild cam. I belive the Andy Rouse engines had the wilder H234 camshaft. John recommends a straight replacement with the mild JE101 (now known as the JDE2665) however this will only (?) give 245bhp if everything else is healthy. Dom at TVR Power recommends his 218 camshaft. I've heard good things about Realsteel's Cyclone and Typhoon and also V8 Developments "Stealth" camshaft. Ideally I want to get one ordered up tomorrow but I also one that will go straight in without any further machining. Anyone had issues or can recommend a suitbale slightly wild cam?
Cheers Keith
Christ is that garage being paid by the minute? After finding No 1 exhaust valve isn't opening a boroscope down the valley and you'll see no cam lobe.
No need to run up to temperature you can do all this diagnosis on the starter motor with the rocker covers off.
I hope they don't pull off the heads it isn't needed. Engine can stay in situ as well.
Should take a garage about 3 hours to change the cam and followers. Make sure they change the followers.
The main gotchas with this job is if the front cover bolts are seized and if you put too much torque on they will snap leading to time-consuming extraction and maybe helicoiling.
So instead use a torque wrench to crack them open one by one set to about 30lbf. If one won't budge then apply heat immediately, not more torque. A welding torch onto the head will do the job - or mig weld to the bolt head.
No need to run up to temperature you can do all this diagnosis on the starter motor with the rocker covers off.
I hope they don't pull off the heads it isn't needed. Engine can stay in situ as well.
Should take a garage about 3 hours to change the cam and followers. Make sure they change the followers.
The main gotchas with this job is if the front cover bolts are seized and if you put too much torque on they will snap leading to time-consuming extraction and maybe helicoiling.
So instead use a torque wrench to crack them open one by one set to about 30lbf. If one won't budge then apply heat immediately, not more torque. A welding torch onto the head will do the job - or mig weld to the bolt head.
Edited by adam quantrill on Thursday 17th September 20:59
adam quantrill said:
Christ is that garage being paid by the minute? After finding No 1 exhaust valve isn't opening a boroscope down the valley and you'll see no cam lobe.
No need to run up to temperature you can do all this diagnosis on the starter motor with the rocker covers off.
I hope they don't pull off the heads it isn't needed. Engine can stay in situ as well.
Should take a garage about 3 hours to change the cam and followers. Make sure they change the followers.
Special "mates rates" on the labour charge - ask no questions...No need to run up to temperature you can do all this diagnosis on the starter motor with the rocker covers off.
I hope they don't pull off the heads it isn't needed. Engine can stay in situ as well.
Should take a garage about 3 hours to change the cam and followers. Make sure they change the followers.
They did find the fault with the valve not opening "on the starter" and rocker cover off but I spoke to Smash and he said he'd tested each individual exhaust port with a laser temperature gauge and all was good so I asked the garage to bolt it back together and repeat the test to see what results we got. The test didn't show a lower temperature on No 1 despite the exhaust valve not opening. Others should bear this in mind if they try that test.
Heads are staying in place and yes new camshaft, new followers and also new timing gear and chain will be fitted.
But what camshaft???????????? V8 Developments Stealth kit sounds good to me:
http://www.v8developments.co.uk/products/camshafts...
Edited by KKson on Thursday 17th September 21:27
Bobby Shaftoe said:
Sounds like you've got a similar spec to me with the big valve heads and whatnot. I've never tried the stealth but i've got the numbers and it looks very similar to the kent H214, just on a slightly tighter lsa.
I made around about 250hp ish on the h214, tis a fairly decent cam but if you want more power wise i'd heartily recommend the Crower 50233, comes on cam at around 3250rpm, peak torque at around 4500 and carrys on pulling past 6500. idle is slightly lopey at 900 ish. Other good ones in this performance band are the Real Steel Typhoon, Real Steel Tornado and Kent H224. Note you will need piston cutouts for all these cams.
The next step up is the 234 cams; Real Steel RS234, Crower 50234, Kent H234 and the Kelford 190-F, these are the wildest Hydraulic cams available and may be a step too far in getting them to behave on a clockwork dizzy and lucas injection.
Thanks for the reply - according to the books the 390 JE engine should have the Cosworth pistons but I've not removed the heads to find out. I'll ask the garage to check tomorrow to see if the pistons fitted do have cut outs or not, assuming they have a suitable borascope. I've not heard anything bad re the Stealth cam and it's not too radical so I'm going to give them a call in the morning and talk it through with them. Might not get any sleep tonight - thinking of lift and overlap and cams.... I made around about 250hp ish on the h214, tis a fairly decent cam but if you want more power wise i'd heartily recommend the Crower 50233, comes on cam at around 3250rpm, peak torque at around 4500 and carrys on pulling past 6500. idle is slightly lopey at 900 ish. Other good ones in this performance band are the Real Steel Typhoon, Real Steel Tornado and Kent H224. Note you will need piston cutouts for all these cams.
The next step up is the 234 cams; Real Steel RS234, Crower 50234, Kent H234 and the Kelford 190-F, these are the wildest Hydraulic cams available and may be a step too far in getting them to behave on a clockwork dizzy and lucas injection.
Keith, have you got a copy of Des Hammill's book on the RV8? If not, I could scan the pages relating to camshafts for you. Let me know if needed.
Edited to add that if you're going for a cam that will allow revs to 6K and more, you really need high rev lifters (not the standard versions)
Edited to add that if you're going for a cam that will allow revs to 6K and more, you really need high rev lifters (not the standard versions)
Edited by Number 7 on Friday 18th September 07:53
Number 7 said:
Keith, have you got a copy of Des Hammill's book on the RV8? If not, I could scan the pages relating to camshafts for you. Let me know if needed.
Edited to add that if you're going for a cam that will allow revs to 6K and more, you really need high rev lifters (not the standard versions)
Hi, no I've not got a copy that book so a scan of the cam info would be great thanks. I seriously doubt that I'll ever rev beyond the 6000rpm limit, in fact 5500 is about as high as I ever go and 5000 is the usual self imposed limit. What I want is a camshaft that I can drop in that suits the John Eales head, double valve springs and hydraulic tappets. About to have a chat with V8 Developments. Cheers. Edited to add that if you're going for a cam that will allow revs to 6K and more, you really need high rev lifters (not the standard versions)
Edited by Number 7 on Friday 18th September 07:53
Having had the 234 cam in the 420 would I choose it again
No
Why? Having now driving more wedges and now chim's post the 420 what have more lower down power vs high end high rev power I'd plump for a sensible choice like JE is suggesting
Just my view clearly :-)
Ps chim passed its mot today with zero advisories so see you at NG Keith :-)
No
Why? Having now driving more wedges and now chim's post the 420 what have more lower down power vs high end high rev power I'd plump for a sensible choice like JE is suggesting
Just my view clearly :-)
Ps chim passed its mot today with zero advisories so see you at NG Keith :-)
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