Smash's 390SE work so far
Discussion
Thought I'd give a quick update on the limited progress so far:
Compression test all good with less than 10psi difference between pots.
Distributor all good and static and dynamic timing all good with vacuum advance all working fine.
HT leads all good with decent spark, in the right order, on each one.
Rocker covers are off and rocker shaft, valves, push rods etc all in perfect condition with no noticeable wear. There is evidence of two new valves, one each in cylinders 2 and 4.
Next step is to double check all the sensors and then check the wiring from sensor back to ECU.
There was a little bit of light metallic residue/dust in the oil sat in the rocker covers. Not sure where this is from or how long it's been sat there? Oil pressure is good and no obvious mechanical issues. I'm wondering if it's related to the new valves that have been installed at some point in the not-too-distant past?
A couple of points of note - the engine has been fitted with a timing test point for a plug in analyser. There is a five pin multiplug connection under the screw on cap. Has anyone ever seen one of these on a Wedge before?
Other point of note is the fuel regulator - it's not a standard one and not a FSE style one. Does anyone know the make?
Compression test all good with less than 10psi difference between pots.
Distributor all good and static and dynamic timing all good with vacuum advance all working fine.
HT leads all good with decent spark, in the right order, on each one.
Rocker covers are off and rocker shaft, valves, push rods etc all in perfect condition with no noticeable wear. There is evidence of two new valves, one each in cylinders 2 and 4.
Next step is to double check all the sensors and then check the wiring from sensor back to ECU.
There was a little bit of light metallic residue/dust in the oil sat in the rocker covers. Not sure where this is from or how long it's been sat there? Oil pressure is good and no obvious mechanical issues. I'm wondering if it's related to the new valves that have been installed at some point in the not-too-distant past?
A couple of points of note - the engine has been fitted with a timing test point for a plug in analyser. There is a five pin multiplug connection under the screw on cap. Has anyone ever seen one of these on a Wedge before?
Other point of note is the fuel regulator - it's not a standard one and not a FSE style one. Does anyone know the make?
Edited by KKson on Wednesday 26th August 22:26
Edited by KKson on Wednesday 26th August 22:26
That 'diagnostic' connector and crank pickup was standard fit on most of the injected V8s whether in a Wedge or not.
Not much use to us really as it doesn't tell you anything that you can't find out with strobe light etc., presumably it was there to allow quick timing pickup for the manufacturer's kit. I threw mine away to save weight
When you say 'evidence of new valves', do you mean it has new valves, or have you taken fingerprints and blood samples..?
Not much use to us really as it doesn't tell you anything that you can't find out with strobe light etc., presumably it was there to allow quick timing pickup for the manufacturer's kit. I threw mine away to save weight
When you say 'evidence of new valves', do you mean it has new valves, or have you taken fingerprints and blood samples..?
Wedg1e said:
When you say 'evidence of new valves', do you mean it has new valves, or have you taken fingerprints and blood samples..?
14 old, tarnished and dirty valves and caps and two very clean shiny and new looking units.Ian - is your 390SE running the original ECU? If so what fuel pressure are you running at? I've spoken to Mark Adams and he says with the original ECU he would run fuel pressure at 48psi which is contrary (higher) to what I've heard. What he says is when he remaps them he adjusts the injectors opening times so the fuel pressure can be dropped back down and the injectors stay open longer to give the required fuel flow. I'd be interested to know what yours is running.
Thanks.
For what its worth I would never run unknown / old injectors at 48 psi!! You could cause premature failure or leaking injectors and associated fuel hydraulics in the cylinders without the holding of duration times in the management system. 38 - 40 psi max in my book.
That FPR you have in there is not stock, I would want to put a standard and known working one in to get it all running and tweek later when its all good.
Chris
That FPR you have in there is not stock, I would want to put a standard and known working one in to get it all running and tweek later when its all good.
Chris
Glad it went to you - you'll do best by the old git gal 
Re: injectors - from my back tracking thread - all cleaned and tested - keep up at the back!
Re: fuel pressure it was set bang on 36psi when I first got the car
Keith I'll pm you last owners number - he had it 18 years so if valves were done it must've been him
Re: injectors - from my back tracking thread - all cleaned and tested - keep up at the back!
Re: fuel pressure it was set bang on 36psi when I first got the car
Keith I'll pm you last owners number - he had it 18 years so if valves were done it must've been him
Edited by smash on Thursday 27th August 18:16
Thanks Scott. I did see the Mr Injector paperwork so thanks for that. I'm 90% certain it is ECU/AFM related but I'd rather the garage plod through all the usual stuff one step at a time so we've eliminated everything before we get there.
Starter was sticking a bit so got a new one today from TVR Parts. I'll fettle the old one with a new solenoid at a later date so I've got a spare for the two Wedges. Also ordered up a new K&N air filter for good measure.
I did actually systematically go through every old thread regarding the issues and advice given so the garage could see the full history of correspondence. I copied them all into one Word document and it came to 54 pages!
Cheers.
Starter was sticking a bit so got a new one today from TVR Parts. I'll fettle the old one with a new solenoid at a later date so I've got a spare for the two Wedges. Also ordered up a new K&N air filter for good measure.
I did actually systematically go through every old thread regarding the issues and advice given so the garage could see the full history of correspondence. I copied them all into one Word document and it came to 54 pages!
Cheers.
Edited by KKson on Thursday 27th August 18:25
If you turn the engine over with the rocker covers off can you see all the valves/rockers going up and down almost equally (or are some - particularly the new ones - not moving much?)
Reason I ask is that if the valves have been done, at the same time new followers might have been fitted and cam lobes might have suffered.
Reason I ask is that if the valves have been done, at the same time new followers might have been fitted and cam lobes might have suffered.
Interesting that two of the valves are new, clearly the engine has had some serious work quite recently.
I know that some 390 engines had solid lifters; my 420 engine had solid lifters but some numpty had set it up assuming it had hydraulic ones (ie using adjustable pushrods to set preload) - if I had run it like this it would have burnt out the valves.
I have my suspicions that that was why my SEAC was laid up for so long, it would never have run right with the lifters set up like that and the owner was probably told that the engine was knackered. When I pulled the engine apart this was the only issue.
I know that some 390 engines had solid lifters; my 420 engine had solid lifters but some numpty had set it up assuming it had hydraulic ones (ie using adjustable pushrods to set preload) - if I had run it like this it would have burnt out the valves.
I have my suspicions that that was why my SEAC was laid up for so long, it would never have run right with the lifters set up like that and the owner was probably told that the engine was knackered. When I pulled the engine apart this was the only issue.
Number 7 said:
As Ian says, the diagnostic port was a common fitment on the RV8 - I had one on my old 350i - never used it though. Out of interest, does the engine have double valve springs, and any idea what cam it's running?
Well rocker shafts are still off so not able to run, plus starter was playing up so bought a new one from TVR Parts - £133 including VAT and club discount which I thought was pretty good. Service was excellent by the way, with overnight delivery.Valve springs are double. I wasn't going to pull the cam out at this stage - if I can get it running without stripping the engine then that would be good for now.
KKson said:
Ian - is your 390SE running the original ECU? If so what fuel pressure are you running at? I've spoken to Mark Adams and he says with the original ECU he would run fuel pressure at 48psi which is contrary (higher) to what I've heard. What he says is when he remaps them he adjusts the injectors opening times so the fuel pressure can be dropped back down and the injectors stay open longer to give the required fuel flow. I'd be interested to know what yours is running.
Thanks.
Sorry, only just seen this...!Thanks.
Ah, can of worms. I believe my car has its original ECU for a couple of reasons, one being that it has the car's relay diagram stuck to it. Another is that manufacturing dates on components inside are close to the actual age of the car so it hasn't been replaced with one from an older car, for example. A further reason is that the various calibration resistors in it have markedly different values to the same components used in 350i and Range Rover versions, so it was clearly twiddled for a purpose.
There's also nothing in the extensive history files to suggest it ever had any injection work (at least not by the two owners before me which would take it back to about 1991).
It has had a new cam (type RP1 from RPI) at some stage but that's not surprising as I bought it with 86000 miles on.
Fuel pressure... as an experiment I fitted higher-flow injectors and a Jaguar airflow meter some years ago. At the same time I fitted a spare inlet manifold to which I did some mild porting (far less than that performed on the original by NCK).
The only way I could get the car to run was by lowering the fuel rail pressure to about 1.8Bar (maybe 28psi?). A short while later I had rough running issues that I blamed on my DIY injection system so I refitted the original airflow meter which made no difference. The fault proved to be the ignition pickup sensor in the distributor failing - the main symptom was that it wouldn't rev past about 5000 (I'd already disconnected the aftermarket rev limiter by this point). A replacement pickup cured it but I've done no work to the injection since then, so as it stands it has my DIY-ported inlet manifold, a Bosch adjustable (non rising-rate) fuel pressure reg and 220cc injectors with its original (SD1-size) airflow meter. In this state it showed 256bhp/ 280lb. ft. on the BBWF dyno a few years back.
I should point out that technically it's not an original 390SE engine; I had to have it rebored due to broken piston rings (done by some monkey before me but I didn't realise when I bought it as it was so much quicker than my 2.8 Tasmin I didn't think anything was wrong). So it now has the 94mm bores (and pistons) of a 400SE and 3948 instead of 3905cc with the compression ratio down to about 9.4:1 instead of 10.5:1.
Apart from that it's standard NCK - dual valve springs on 3.5L-size valves, shortened guides, ported heads.
Right, I typed this once and then logged-out by mistake so I'll see if I can remember what I writ... 
270bhp is I think the highest figure I've ever seen claimed for a 390SE that wasn't written by TVR - I thought my 256 was optimistic.
My car did have 105-type injectors as well; I changed them after I'd fitted the Jag AFM and Mark Adams told me (at the first 'Fest I think) that it'd probably run lean. I figured that if I couldn't 'reprogram' the ECU then fatter injectors were the way to go
The Jag AFM didn't need much of a tweak of its bias spring to get the car running apparently correctly.
I have read that NCK and others 'over-ported' their heads and manifolds; supposedly some restriction adds a venturi effect which speeds up the air into the cylinders. My dyno run was carried out with my minimally-ported DIY manifold so I guess the only way to prove any benefits of the NCK original would be to refit it and do another run.
I did buy a spare fuel rail and injectors from a V12 XJS but they turned out to be 105s as well
- keep meaning to put them back on Ebay.
I also meant to add that my car runs slightly-shortened trumpets and has a 10mm insulator between the trumpet base and inlet manifold... and there's no cold start injector. Over the years I have managed to set the car up so that it took off like a fighter jet, but was horrendous in town. The current compromise suits my driving style, I don't thrash the nads off it. If I want to move really quickly I get the bike out
Right, let's see if I can click the right bloody buttons this time...
270bhp is I think the highest figure I've ever seen claimed for a 390SE that wasn't written by TVR
- I thought my 256 was optimistic.My car did have 105-type injectors as well; I changed them after I'd fitted the Jag AFM and Mark Adams told me (at the first 'Fest I think) that it'd probably run lean. I figured that if I couldn't 'reprogram' the ECU then fatter injectors were the way to go
The Jag AFM didn't need much of a tweak of its bias spring to get the car running apparently correctly.
I have read that NCK and others 'over-ported' their heads and manifolds; supposedly some restriction adds a venturi effect which speeds up the air into the cylinders. My dyno run was carried out with my minimally-ported DIY manifold so I guess the only way to prove any benefits of the NCK original would be to refit it and do another run.
I did buy a spare fuel rail and injectors from a V12 XJS but they turned out to be 105s as well
- keep meaning to put them back on Ebay.I also meant to add that my car runs slightly-shortened trumpets and has a 10mm insulator between the trumpet base and inlet manifold... and there's no cold start injector. Over the years I have managed to set the car up so that it took off like a fighter jet, but was horrendous in town. The current compromise suits my driving style, I don't thrash the nads off it. If I want to move really quickly I get the bike out
Right, let's see if I can click the right bloody buttons this time...
Thanks all for responses. Garage today is fitting the new starter and cranking it over to ensure the valves are all behaving. Then it's on to the sensors and wiring. I've downloaded all I can find on setting up the AFM and my technician/mechanic says he's comfortable with checking/setting it up. He has all the analyser equipment needed. It's only if it's the ECU that external help will be needed. Cheers.
Bobby Shaftoe said:
Iain, did you notice anything with the 10mm plenum insulator, it's one of the things i've been toying with making and fitting but was never sure if it would make a jot of difference?
I've already relocated the air filter in a homemade fibreglass airbox fed from the two front bumper vents, and i saw inlet temps drop from 50c average to mid 20's average, and there is a noticeable difference in performance and response.
All my proper jag injectors(Bosch 0280150153)came on straight 6 fuel rails, i don't think the v12 ever ran them.
I've never been that bothered about squeezing every last horse out of my car, it was more that I thought I could offer repair and servicing to other V8s I've already relocated the air filter in a homemade fibreglass airbox fed from the two front bumper vents, and i saw inlet temps drop from 50c average to mid 20's average, and there is a noticeable difference in performance and response.
All my proper jag injectors(Bosch 0280150153)came on straight 6 fuel rails, i don't think the v12 ever ran them.
... so the insulator was more an exercise in proving I could do it. I did sell a handful of them, mostly 6mm, and one went as a raffle prize at one of the early 'Fests (don't know if they guy who got it even still posts on here).I read somewhere that if you just slot an insulator in, it raises the top of the plenum so high that the bonnet won't shut, so I milled 10mm off the bottom of the trumpet base and everything's been hunky-dory. Keeps all the inlet tracts the original length too.
Could't say whether there was any performance increase (I changed so many things around the same time with only seat-of-pants tuning, still the guy with the dyno was impressed
) but it makes a massive difference to the temperature of the plenum; I can go out for a good hoof, open the bonnet and rest my hand on the plenum. So it must have some effect 
The injectors I fitted are used by Jaguar on their later cars, but they fit the 'plug-in' fuel rail similar to the one used on the hotwire RV8s. I just modified the injectors with a hacksaw
- I think at least one other person on here has used the same ones since. They're not quite as 'full-fat' as the ones you're on about but still a good 20% more flow than the 105s.You mention reloacting the air filter; I did consider a similar idea as a product that could be offered; I was planning to use the square/ rectangular 'panel' filters and have one each side of a GRP or alloy intake box down in the nose. Like a lot of great ideas it's still 'in progress'... maybe when I take the radiator out for a much-overdue recore...
Wedg1e said:
You mention reloacting the air filter; I did consider a similar idea as a product that could be offered; I was planning to use the square/ rectangular 'panel' filters and have one each side of a GRP or alloy intake box down in the nose. Like a lot of great ideas it's still 'in progress'... maybe when I take the radiator out for a much-overdue recore...
Sounds like a plan and the best time to put it into action would be when you sort the rad....I had an idea for a repositioning of the air filter but it meant moving the expansion tank to where the filter was....I need a ramp....
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