electronic replacements for the 2.8 K-jet system
Discussion
Just kicking this off for any info and ideas.
I've been looking at the idea of a megajolt/megasquirt for ignition control, especially now that the 2.8 engine doesn't seem totally at ease with this unleaded fruit cocktail they sell now. I came across a couple of US sites which do EFi Megasquirt ign AND fuel conversions for K-jet Audi and Mercedes engines, even down to little adaptor bosses for the injectors !
I know, we could go 2.8 Efi from the Granny, but these are very rare, so I wondered has anyone done anything like this to their 2.8 ?
There's bugger all chance of me finding a 2.8 Efi out here, although there is the odd 2.9 Sierra around.
Nothing against the V8 guys, but you were lucky enough to have electronic injection part already, from basic through to 'proper' full management... have any of you gone to digital (= non-dizzy) timing systems ?
Any experiences would be interesting to hear about
I've been looking at the idea of a megajolt/megasquirt for ignition control, especially now that the 2.8 engine doesn't seem totally at ease with this unleaded fruit cocktail they sell now. I came across a couple of US sites which do EFi Megasquirt ign AND fuel conversions for K-jet Audi and Mercedes engines, even down to little adaptor bosses for the injectors !
I know, we could go 2.8 Efi from the Granny, but these are very rare, so I wondered has anyone done anything like this to their 2.8 ?
There's bugger all chance of me finding a 2.8 Efi out here, although there is the odd 2.9 Sierra around.
Nothing against the V8 guys, but you were lucky enough to have electronic injection part already, from basic through to 'proper' full management... have any of you gone to digital (= non-dizzy) timing systems ?
Any experiences would be interesting to hear about
Hi Andy...When i was supercharging Delilah i wanted to have an upgraded ignition to take care of any advance or retarding of the timing and not have to rely on the mechanicals...So i went for the Amethyst system...Which i hate to say was a complete waste of £200...It ended up in the bin...I don't think the build quality was all that either as it became quite flat with a few taps of a hammer...
I've been down that road with my 350i; Megasquirt full fuel and dizzyless. I'm now doing the same to my SEAC so I guess that's a recommendation.
I bought a Rover V8 'kit' and it was pants. I had to spend ages fettling it and studying the Megasquirt documentation to figure out what was going on, but after a lot of grief the 350i now runs very well. The key with megasquirt is to get into the detail and understand exactly what you want it to do and the best way of going about it - go to www.megamanual.com FAQ and take heed of what it says! It is a DIY system that's intended for educational purposes; ie you have to learn ALL about it - it was never intended to be a 'bolt on and forget' solution.
There are lots of choices/options too. You have Megasquirt 1,2 or 3 and Microsquirt; then you have the original B+G firmware (Bowling and Grippo, the original protagonists) or the MSExtra firmware. I have MSExtra/MS1 on the 350i which I'm not very happy with, I'm going B+G/MS2 on the SEAC (and I'll probably change the 350i to that if it works OK).
Ignition wise, I have a trigger wheel on the crank and Ford EDIS with wasted spark coils (no distributer). I'd highly recommend that, the timing is spot on and you can do things like run 18 Deg advance at idle but have the timing at TDC when cranking; the Rover V8 is very happy with that. You need Ford EDIS with MS1 and B+G/MS2, although MSExtra/MS2 (with internal mods) and MS3 can drive the coils directly.
To make the most of it you'll also need a WB O2 sensor and a PWM idle valve. You'll then spend many enjoyable weeks/months tuning it, once you're at that point it's paradise for a car fettler!
It's fun to get in to, but don't let people tell you it's easy...
I bought a Rover V8 'kit' and it was pants. I had to spend ages fettling it and studying the Megasquirt documentation to figure out what was going on, but after a lot of grief the 350i now runs very well. The key with megasquirt is to get into the detail and understand exactly what you want it to do and the best way of going about it - go to www.megamanual.com FAQ and take heed of what it says! It is a DIY system that's intended for educational purposes; ie you have to learn ALL about it - it was never intended to be a 'bolt on and forget' solution.
There are lots of choices/options too. You have Megasquirt 1,2 or 3 and Microsquirt; then you have the original B+G firmware (Bowling and Grippo, the original protagonists) or the MSExtra firmware. I have MSExtra/MS1 on the 350i which I'm not very happy with, I'm going B+G/MS2 on the SEAC (and I'll probably change the 350i to that if it works OK).
Ignition wise, I have a trigger wheel on the crank and Ford EDIS with wasted spark coils (no distributer). I'd highly recommend that, the timing is spot on and you can do things like run 18 Deg advance at idle but have the timing at TDC when cranking; the Rover V8 is very happy with that. You need Ford EDIS with MS1 and B+G/MS2, although MSExtra/MS2 (with internal mods) and MS3 can drive the coils directly.
To make the most of it you'll also need a WB O2 sensor and a PWM idle valve. You'll then spend many enjoyable weeks/months tuning it, once you're at that point it's paradise for a car fettler!
It's fun to get in to, but don't let people tell you it's easy...
Also - there's all this stuff about whether you can fit a 2.9 inlet manifold to a 2.8 (and vice versa). Anyone know ?
From the sites I can find with pictures, the manifold gaskets look identical, but lots say it doesn't fit - the USA confuses things as they had a different port layout on their 2.8, which definitely won't fit ...
A 2.9 mfold gives a quick way into EFi ..
Yeah, wasn't all that impressed by Amethyst writeups, looks like a very small ignition map. Megasquirt just for ignition would be more flexible.
From the sites I can find with pictures, the manifold gaskets look identical, but lots say it doesn't fit - the USA confuses things as they had a different port layout on their 2.8, which definitely won't fit ...
A 2.9 mfold gives a quick way into EFi ..
Yeah, wasn't all that impressed by Amethyst writeups, looks like a very small ignition map. Megasquirt just for ignition would be more flexible.
No one has mentioned this in a while and I'm not sure how hard it is to find but it actually address some of the TVR issues of the 2.8 as well as some discussion about what can be swapped. "How to Build And Modify Ford 60 degree V-6 Engines" by S Pruett (1994).
Also I seem to recall there were better heads used in the Mustang-2 that could be swapped in. That would require a carburetor type intake manifold, but I assume you are going that way anyway. Don't know how that exhaust would work with the chassis.
Finally, have you looked at any of the self-learning EFI systems by Edelbrock and others? Seems like they have one for an "old school" non-computer controlled engine. Grady
Also I seem to recall there were better heads used in the Mustang-2 that could be swapped in. That would require a carburetor type intake manifold, but I assume you are going that way anyway. Don't know how that exhaust would work with the chassis.
Finally, have you looked at any of the self-learning EFI systems by Edelbrock and others? Seems like they have one for an "old school" non-computer controlled engine. Grady
Edited by Grady on Tuesday 2nd February 22:02
I know that the US got heads with 3 exhaust ports, and those heads had different inlet port spacings too, so you would need the matching manifold. From web reports, they don't actually flow much better overall. Offenhauser used to do both European and US layouts for their manifolds, but now only do the US ones.
USA ones had a reputation for cracking, but I think that got fixed after a while.
I looked around for pics of the 2.8 inlet mfold gaskets, and you can see the difference between USA and Euro ones.
So for the Euro 2.8 versions, there is actaully a carb manifold, K-jet manifold, and an Efi manifold (Efi is rare...). Euro 2.9 were all Efi, but I think USA got some carb ones ? Anyway, European-wise, the 2.9 gasket looks identical to the 2.8, but manifolds don't interchange ?? hmmmmm.
Swaps - If I was in USA, I would be looking for a pushrod 4.0 version - they do exist, so I'm told.....UK companies use the 4.0 crank for the 3.5 stroker I think.
Self learning ? Nah... the whole point is to be able to fiddle with it !!!
And I've got other threads on engine swaps. That Lexus V8 looks good .....
USA ones had a reputation for cracking, but I think that got fixed after a while.
I looked around for pics of the 2.8 inlet mfold gaskets, and you can see the difference between USA and Euro ones.
So for the Euro 2.8 versions, there is actaully a carb manifold, K-jet manifold, and an Efi manifold (Efi is rare...). Euro 2.9 were all Efi, but I think USA got some carb ones ? Anyway, European-wise, the 2.9 gasket looks identical to the 2.8, but manifolds don't interchange ?? hmmmmm.
Swaps - If I was in USA, I would be looking for a pushrod 4.0 version - they do exist, so I'm told.....UK companies use the 4.0 crank for the 3.5 stroker I think.
Self learning ? Nah... the whole point is to be able to fiddle with it !!!
And I've got other threads on engine swaps. That Lexus V8 looks good .....
Yep - I'm always keeping an eye on valve clearances, as my engine doesn't have unleaded valve seats. Seems OK so far.
I set them just a little wider than spec, Cologne engines seem to like that (I've had a few)
Injectors are in good condition - I replaced them, and they haven't done many miles.
Timing is the issue really.
It DEFINITELY doesn't run right with vac advance connected, and retarding as recommended (9 degrees BTDC or even 6)
makes it feel flat. I've played with this a lot to get the best combination. I don't think the dizzy springs are badly worn, they look OK too (not too slack). Currently running 10 BTDC with no vac advance.
So - a digital mapped setup is what I am considering, but probably keep dizzy - you can't remove it anyway, as it drives the oil pump.
The cheapest and most able combination (functionality vs. price) at the moment does seem to be a megasquirt contolling
just the ignition (and then later on, might go full Efi)
I set them just a little wider than spec, Cologne engines seem to like that (I've had a few)
Injectors are in good condition - I replaced them, and they haven't done many miles.
Timing is the issue really.
It DEFINITELY doesn't run right with vac advance connected, and retarding as recommended (9 degrees BTDC or even 6)
makes it feel flat. I've played with this a lot to get the best combination. I don't think the dizzy springs are badly worn, they look OK too (not too slack). Currently running 10 BTDC with no vac advance.
So - a digital mapped setup is what I am considering, but probably keep dizzy - you can't remove it anyway, as it drives the oil pump.
The cheapest and most able combination (functionality vs. price) at the moment does seem to be a megasquirt contolling
just the ignition (and then later on, might go full Efi)
Found this looking around on the web - how to electronically control a K-jet system by replacing the WUR (warm up regulator) with a new unit, and then using a microsquirt to control fuel mixture.
Interesting idea....and I like the name !
http://www.frankencis.com/
and that gets you spark control too, if you want it.
Interesting idea....and I like the name !
http://www.frankencis.com/
and that gets you spark control too, if you want it.
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