Discussion
I was possibly interested when I first saw it but was looking for an 89 or earlier because of silly customs laws and this one is a 90 built car.
Looks immaculate from the pictures and info Steve sent me.
Maybe a bit pricey at 10k but look at the standard of car you get in other TVR models at this price !
Worth a look I would have thought.
Looks immaculate from the pictures and info Steve sent me.
Maybe a bit pricey at 10k but look at the standard of car you get in other TVR models at this price !
Worth a look I would have thought.
I have always found the concept of valuing something you have never seen interesting.When so few were made(35) and probably only a third of them Hotwire(a very important difference)it is difficult to put a value on them, and obviously something is only worth what someone will pay for it.
The most important thing to consider when buying anything, particularly in this case an old car, is not what you pay for it but what it ultimately costs you. If you had bought this car before the previous owner you could well have paid this magical figure of £10000 for it(unlikely but if that is what we consider it to be worth then call it £10000)
You may then have spent a huge sum of money having the car completely checked over by TVR including an engine strip and rebuild by TVR Power with new cam, followers, big valves and new guides, bearings, pump,500 Griff clutch etc etc. Then a pair of new manifolds and a new Stainless steel sports exhaust system, New Pirelli pZero tyres,hood, brake overhaul etc..
A three owner car and the first two were husband and wife, 27000 miles recorded and probably the last one built--they only made 11 cars in 1990 and this was registered 19th December,I would have though it to be extremely good value at £10950. True there are Griffs and Chimaeras for similar money but I have seen lots of them and besides if you want a Griff/Chimaera you would not buy this if it were £5000.
I have seen 2 400Se's this month and £4000 could have bought you either but you could not have made them even average without spending more than the difference.
It is NOT immaculate because it is 12 years old but the faults are only minor cosmetics, few stone chips and the "wood" is not 100% but not horrible but i do believe you can not buy more TVR for your £ than this.
I value lots of cars for potential buyers and Insurance companies especially post accident to assess the pre accident value and values for virtually all TVR's are all over the place(there are 2 450's for sale on Pistonheads 1 at £9000 and the other at £15000) and would not be prepared to comment on the value of either without seeing them.
There are no "issues" with this 450SE and I do not envisage the next owner needing to spend on anything significant for a long time. I have driven it a fair ammount and have to say its easy to dismiss Wedges but it is also easy to forget how good they are as well.
Putting a value on somthing you haven't seen is impossible, it is only possible to make an inspired guess, its like asking someone to value my house over the phone without seeing it. sTeVeR
The most important thing to consider when buying anything, particularly in this case an old car, is not what you pay for it but what it ultimately costs you. If you had bought this car before the previous owner you could well have paid this magical figure of £10000 for it(unlikely but if that is what we consider it to be worth then call it £10000)
You may then have spent a huge sum of money having the car completely checked over by TVR including an engine strip and rebuild by TVR Power with new cam, followers, big valves and new guides, bearings, pump,500 Griff clutch etc etc. Then a pair of new manifolds and a new Stainless steel sports exhaust system, New Pirelli pZero tyres,hood, brake overhaul etc..
A three owner car and the first two were husband and wife, 27000 miles recorded and probably the last one built--they only made 11 cars in 1990 and this was registered 19th December,I would have though it to be extremely good value at £10950. True there are Griffs and Chimaeras for similar money but I have seen lots of them and besides if you want a Griff/Chimaera you would not buy this if it were £5000.
I have seen 2 400Se's this month and £4000 could have bought you either but you could not have made them even average without spending more than the difference.
It is NOT immaculate because it is 12 years old but the faults are only minor cosmetics, few stone chips and the "wood" is not 100% but not horrible but i do believe you can not buy more TVR for your £ than this.
I value lots of cars for potential buyers and Insurance companies especially post accident to assess the pre accident value and values for virtually all TVR's are all over the place(there are 2 450's for sale on Pistonheads 1 at £9000 and the other at £15000) and would not be prepared to comment on the value of either without seeing them.
There are no "issues" with this 450SE and I do not envisage the next owner needing to spend on anything significant for a long time. I have driven it a fair ammount and have to say its easy to dismiss Wedges but it is also easy to forget how good they are as well.
Putting a value on somthing you haven't seen is impossible, it is only possible to make an inspired guess, its like asking someone to value my house over the phone without seeing it. sTeVeR
If i were looking to buy a 450 i would look at all of them, but have to say this car sounds good, i know what its like trying to sell a really good car in a market with cheaper cars available , too many people go for the cheapest and end up paying more in the long run, its easy to spend £5000 on a Wedge .
Tim
Tim
I think it all depends on where you place the real value. £10.5k for an SE appears good value if you want a top Wedge. For that money I'd expect to buy a car that is trouble free with a an excellent service history taking into account the usual Wedge idiosyncaracies.
Give it a year or so and I believe early Chimps and Griffs will be fetching the same money. If like me you hanker after a Griff at some point, then it comes down to what really gets you going about TVR and where your passion lies. It's probaly the same reason why there are quite a few Chimp & Griff people who have gone back to driving a Wedge.
What you can't value though is the driving experience your choice of TVR will bring you. No amount of money will be able to buy you the pleasure of driving the car of your choice. The way I look at it, is that all TVRs regardless of cost have always been cost effective performance cars when it comes to matching other cars costing 2,3 times as much and are less entertaining to own.
Give it a year or so and I believe early Chimps and Griffs will be fetching the same money. If like me you hanker after a Griff at some point, then it comes down to what really gets you going about TVR and where your passion lies. It's probaly the same reason why there are quite a few Chimp & Griff people who have gone back to driving a Wedge.
What you can't value though is the driving experience your choice of TVR will bring you. No amount of money will be able to buy you the pleasure of driving the car of your choice. The way I look at it, is that all TVRs regardless of cost have always been cost effective performance cars when it comes to matching other cars costing 2,3 times as much and are less entertaining to own.
Interesting point about values. I think in some ways wedges are undervalued, but then a lot of people will readily say "that car is only worth so much" because they want to keep prices low for when they want to buy themselves. This is probably why the values in the back of the classic car mags are so wild they are rubbish - for a variety of cars. The mags often contradict themselves in the text.
I'd be intersted in hearing where the 2 400SE's are - do they really need a lot of work doing to them?
firefox
I'd be intersted in hearing where the 2 400SE's are - do they really need a lot of work doing to them?
firefox
One car was offered "in the trade" and the other was offered as a trade in against a 97 Griff 500. Both had a collection of faults including tired engines, one needed a clutch and the slave cylinder was leaking,both had cracked and bodged exhaust manifolds and one needed an immediate exhaust system, One needed 2 tyres and the other needed 3, both had damaged(kerbed) OZ split rims,one had just had a poor paint job and the other needed one, One had a VERY tatty interior and the other was not far behind,both had scruffy roofs and one had a cracked rear window, one had a leaky power steering rack, one had a headlight that would not go down, both had delaminated winscreens,one overheated due to non functioning cooling fans and both were pre hotwire.I could go on further but I am sure you get the message.
I have written quite a few articles with Classic car magazines and know a fair few of the journalists. I always ask where they get their prices from and they never really have a clue, usually quoting auction prices, when did you last ee a SEAC being auctioned?
As Tim said it is easy to spend £5000 on a wedge and they are without doubt the most expensive TVR to restore if you had to do a total body off restoration. Because they are a bit out of fashion at the moment many are in a downward spiral where because they do not have a great deal of value and are difficult to sell, people are not spending money on them so they get worse and are worth less money and so it goes on.
The same thing happened to "M" Series cars ,Vixens, and Granturas.
Good "Big" wedges are an absolute bargain at the moment and I predict they will go a little stronger as Chimaeras continue to fall due to oversupply and everyone waiting to see where they stop.
I have written quite a few articles with Classic car magazines and know a fair few of the journalists. I always ask where they get their prices from and they never really have a clue, usually quoting auction prices, when did you last ee a SEAC being auctioned?
As Tim said it is easy to spend £5000 on a wedge and they are without doubt the most expensive TVR to restore if you had to do a total body off restoration. Because they are a bit out of fashion at the moment many are in a downward spiral where because they do not have a great deal of value and are difficult to sell, people are not spending money on them so they get worse and are worth less money and so it goes on.
The same thing happened to "M" Series cars ,Vixens, and Granturas.
Good "Big" wedges are an absolute bargain at the moment and I predict they will go a little stronger as Chimaeras continue to fall due to oversupply and everyone waiting to see where they stop.
thegamekeeper said:
probably only a third of them Hotwire(a very important difference)sTeVeR
Steve you seem really dead set against pre hotwire cars, can I ask why?
I own a pre hotwire 400 which sounds much nicer on the overrun than any hotwire engined car I have come across, I believe they may be slightly better performance wise though?
Andy.
Andy I am not Dead against any TVR, quite the opposite, I can even see the attraction in Tasmin 200's but my experience over the years with pre hotwire cars over the years that I have had to sort out for people tells me that in big engined wedges the later injection/ignition system is totally reliable. Given the difference in price nowadays ie none I personally would prefer the later car. I do however know of many earlier cars which give no trouble so it is only a personal preference.
Anyone who drives a 40 year old Grantura has no place critisizing any 400SE.
Anyone who drives a 40 year old Grantura has no place critisizing any 400SE.
AM - you got there before me with the question to Steve on the EMS. As usual I find Steve's comments to be thorough and sensible. Functionality wise there's little in it between hot wire (14CUX) & flapper (4CU)systems other than say, over-run fuel cut off which was not in th strategy on the latter and hence when hot the over-run popping from the exhaust - key issue in general is reliability especially of the AFM (hot wire/flapper bit).
Prices are very subjective and as Steve says remotely it's hard to say. The Liverpool 450SE with the SEAC wing and new Sparco seats advertised recently went for sub £6k to a London dealer - why? Cos the guy needed the space and wanted rid - The dealer will naturally have this on his forecourt at a higher price but then that's his living and after all he was the early bird.
IMHO - if buying privately and not knowing the Wedge market is VVV dangerous. Buying privately and knowing the Wedge you may get a bargain and IMHO always go for the slightly cheaper car and allow for repairs than spend up to your budget and get a suprise. Alternatively buy from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer with confidence - this is where Steve (gamekeeper) comes to the fore. Alternatively buy form someone (including a dealer) who doesn't know what they've got, do your homework including talking to the club, 2 sheds, Steve, etc and you may get a bargain e.g. my SEAC - mind you as per Steve's note it has cost me some £ and by the time it's done it'll be near to a typical private price of a 420 SEAC!
Blah Waffle, etc - sorry.
Steve - have you seen Trevor's selling the Griff 500 he bought from you (the one with the rollbar and kill carbunckle).
Cheers,
GB
Prices are very subjective and as Steve says remotely it's hard to say. The Liverpool 450SE with the SEAC wing and new Sparco seats advertised recently went for sub £6k to a London dealer - why? Cos the guy needed the space and wanted rid - The dealer will naturally have this on his forecourt at a higher price but then that's his living and after all he was the early bird.
IMHO - if buying privately and not knowing the Wedge market is VVV dangerous. Buying privately and knowing the Wedge you may get a bargain and IMHO always go for the slightly cheaper car and allow for repairs than spend up to your budget and get a suprise. Alternatively buy from a reputable and knowledgeable dealer with confidence - this is where Steve (gamekeeper) comes to the fore. Alternatively buy form someone (including a dealer) who doesn't know what they've got, do your homework including talking to the club, 2 sheds, Steve, etc and you may get a bargain e.g. my SEAC - mind you as per Steve's note it has cost me some £ and by the time it's done it'll be near to a typical private price of a 420 SEAC!
Blah Waffle, etc - sorry.
Steve - have you seen Trevor's selling the Griff 500 he bought from you (the one with the rollbar and kill carbunckle).
Cheers,
GB
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