Fake SEAC?

[TaSmania]

The Firefox/Barons car debate got me thinking about what is and what isn't a fake Wedge or SEAC so follows a long monologue and pictures.
SEAC's vary themselves. So I'm led to believe some of the early full AC cars had 350/390 dash's. The majority had the flat centre dash & without the clock and the underdash handbrake. Some had unique door casings, some had 400/450 style. Some had the 400/450 chassis but with only rose jointed bottom arms whilst some had the tubular outrigger 350 style chassis but with rose jointed bottom arms, TCA & ARB as well as adjustable platform dampers. One or two had 400/450 style interiors and few had AC or part AC bodies What is real? If the factory made an early car using an adjustable chassis arrangement but made an AC 390 style body fitted with a 4.2 and said that this was an SE cos of the 390SE bit but as it had a 4.2 engine and AC body then is it a 420SEAC double
So some piccies for interest:
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000015.jpg Crap picture of 420SEAC rose jointed ARB drop link and rose joint. The bottom part that fits to the TCA is available from the Factory at £11 as is the top part but it needs the bush pount welding on - can fit any Wedge - see later
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000014.jpg
Rose jointed bottom arm. Note the welded plate over where the normal damper goes. This holds a bracket for the bolt through mount on the bottom of the coil over damper.
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000013.jpg
Adjustable platform dampers on the front of my 420 SEAC with the new SPAX adjustables from the factory (I got the last pair
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000012.jpg
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000011.jpg
Top mount of Front suspension. These dampers come from the factory - they listed two types for the SEAC these and the adjustable rebound/bump items on the more conventional mounting.
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000010.jpg 420SEAC rose jointed TCA
Now this lot that follows is a modified 350 chassis to a SEAC layout:
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000009.jpg
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000007.jpg Rose Jointed TCA
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000005.jpg
Rose jointed ARB drop link - factory bottom mount & machined down standard upper mount
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000006.jpg
Crap shot of lower mount
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382316f00000008.jpg
Rear top mount from Moore Racing.
Dampers are nitron all round with bespoke springs. And finally in the Fake debate the nose cones made of Vac bagged composite in the original factory nose cone mould
www.fotango.com/p/eba00382728f00000008.jpg
What's fake, what's real and to copy is the most sincere form of flattery but above all real, fake or otherwise it's a BIG BAD WEDGE.
Enjoy,
GB

[thegamekeeper]

Quite

[shpub]

It's even worse as the factory records grouped 390SE and420 SEACs together!

[TaSmania]

What can ye say? I guess it don't matter as long as it's a Wedge.
GB

[firefox1712]

Hmmm - very interesting, though I haven't been through all that yet!

I think the use of the word 'fake' is perhaps a little pejorative. It may be a genuine factory SEAC with some differences to what most people accept an SEAC is. It may not be. It may have been falsely badged and intentionally misdescribed by the vendor. I prefer to think that a vendor would not be that blatant.

If the latter is the case then the vendor is clearly in trouble. Either by way of civil law - or that he has committed a(several) criminal offence(s).

I am still working on it. Hopefully I will get some more information in the next few days.

So far, I believe I know what it is but am postponing any further action subject to various confirmations coming through.

Alas, the current postal strike does not help - even though a lot of my commmunication is by email and fax.

Please continue with any researches and/or knowledge that you have and which you can pass on to me. In view of the legal situation and the fact that this is an open forum, and thus making any remarks in the public domain may get you into hot water, I would suggest you email me direct with any information at [e-mail].

Please only come forward with factual information, or information that has some positive grounding to it.

I am most grateful to all of you for your assistance, and I do hope that at some time those who are interested can get to see the car.

When was the last time a car caused this much hubbub?

cheers!
firefox.

[TaSmania]

Firefox,
The topic was inspired by the debate over your car but was not intended to be a re-opening of the topic about it but it is in relation to "what is or what is not or what can and cannot be classed as a 390, SEAC or whatever). In the lengthy monologue I suggest how a 350 looking car may even be a genuine SEAC The topic is also to show what I believe is as effective/good as a genuine SEAC chassis i.e. the motorsport chassis I have built from a stock 350 item has more robustness and adjustment than the original 420's and uses many original parts - the question is it a fake? This is what the factory did back in 85 i.e. take a stock set up and breath on it for the first prototypes which then become the template for production.
GB

[AM400]

Very interesting pictures Tas, always wondered what the full rose joint set up looked like.

Planning on doing my suspension new year, those rose jointed drop links look like a possiblility but would it be worth it with the standard bushed wishbones etc?

Andy

[firefox1712]

Tas -

I see. Thank you for your comments. I am not as advanced as many of you on here as to the modifications that can be or are made to TVRs My main interest was and probably still is Italian cars - hence me not using this site much.

Now that I have bought a TVR I have discovered there is quite a community of Tivvies and Wedgers out there! I'd like to know more about how these mods are done and where to start. If you can make some suggestions I would be most grateful.

cheers!
firefox

[shpub]

Try www.t-v-r-services.co.uk and www.tvrbooks.co.uk

[TaSmania]

Andy (AM), Firefox, et al. Many of the mods can be done to any Wedge. The ARB drop link TCA mount can be bought from TVR and the standard drop link turned and threaded to take the 10mm rose joint. All this does is allow for adjustment to pre-load the ARB and reduces bush complience by using the rose joint.
The Bottom arm can be made adjustable by the cutting the rear of the arm off and welding in the big rose joint mount - people such as Moore Racing and RT Racing have done this. To go to the bolt through base & hence coil over shock set up means you need to modify the top mount in order to take the spring forces - this means chassis mods which is a PIA and not really necessary for a road car. To modify the TCA as in the photo's is difficult and is major surgery to the chassis but the result is that it's the same as the early SEAC's and it does reduce some steering kick back on harsh roads but this would only be noticed on non-PAS cars when driven hard.
When the Rally cars done I'll do a full Duncan's SEAC style Web page - it's taken 6 years to get here so the web page will probably be in 2050!!
GB

[19560]

It's only a SEAC if it left the factory as a SEAC and this means the chassis (and as you say they do vary.)

A car modified to be a SEAC, as you describe for example, is a replica. Given 20 years of experience and automotive developement this may be the ultimate wedge - 520SEAC? A sort of combination of Stainless, Cirks and shpub's cars.

A fake is a car that purports to be a SEAC but isn't.

Your pictures are very interesting however and I wonder whether they would be better employed in a suspension tuning for wedges thread.

[TaSmania]

Thanks for the input chaps. Yep I will do a suspension thread at some point the pictures were a distraction only to the thread. Interestingly in discussions with the factory and the model registrar it's difficult to extract exact data on all cars produced and in fact the various Wedge log books say TVR Tasmin sports and 3598cc (or similar). SHPUBS Wedge book gives a good guide to model numbers but often determining facts on what a model was is VVV difficult. I came across a 390 FHC a couple of years back. This was a very late built car (after the factory stopped selling them). They built it for a lady who wanted a 350 FHC after hers was crashed but she asked for as much up to date stuff as possible. It got an A frame chassis and a 390 motor and was badged 390SE & all the facts and figures and sales literature are there but the factory have no data on a 390 FHC but do have date on a late 350 FHC.
I think as The Gamkeeper & said. Quite.
The mould I used for the SEAC nose cone belonged to the factory. It is only the outer skin mould. When I had the parts made I spoke to the factory who said they had the mould made so that customers could if wanted modify the body on a 400/450 - how true this is is debatable but thats the line I was given.
Guess at the end of the day - Fake or Not if it's sorted and it's a Wedge what difference does it make -One of the Stratos Replicas (Hawk I think) is a very true chassis and body replica of the original and it is supposed to be a better sorted car & they sell suspension, chassis and body parts to original owners - still a fake but a bl**dy good car all the same.
Enjoy your Wedge.
GB

[19560]

Hi TaS thanks for your thoughts and promise of a suspension thread but I think that you have missed an important point. A fake is something that is passed off fraudulently, not genuine, a swindle. This should not be confused with copies or replicas. Thus the Stratos replicas are not fakes and neither are their spare parts. Nothing wrong with that. D-type Jag parts assembled as an XKSS can never become D-types. Your nose cone is a replacement part or copy; it only becomes a fake if you try to pass it off as coming from a SEAC.

[TaSmania]

Jonathan,
Interesting and thanks for your thoughts. I'm not sure I entirely follow but then I was up early.
I raise this topic as not to try to personally fake/justify but to raise the question as a consequence of the Firefox, etc debates about what is/isn't a SEAC, an SE, etc. I agree with your thoughts as there is a guy in the North West - Preston Way, who has a SEAC replica - A car built from a 350 with wide arches, SEAC nose and an adjustable chassis as well as a solid lifter 4.6 motor- it's supposedly badged SEAC as that's what it looks like. As per the Stratos debate or the D Type replica's which are normally badged as per the car they replicate this car will never be a 'genuine factory supplied' SEAC but is badged as such - is it a Fake or a Replica?. I'd say the latter and as per my initial thread "to copy is to flatter" - can't remember the exact phrase. The other thought I was aiming at in the initial thread is what is a "genuine" SEAC or a 390 as TVR had several versions of each - Guess we could argue that they evolved and as per your comments the real answer is what it was classed as when it left the factory and in many cases the only way to tell this is from the original factory order and delivery note in the FSH.
Good debate "ne'ce pas" (Poirot I think?).
I had several nose cones made (these are genuine SEAC parts - factory mould & using AC) cos when copeting I tend to do well or do damage (McRae stylie).
Are you Wedging this wekend? Unfortunately my SEAC is in for winter 'doing's'
Cheers,
GB

[TaSmania]

Had to add as the last one was #13 & I'm superstious.
Sorry

[Seamus]

You wouldn't want my 400 then Garry - it's build no 13 of 1991 production - seems rather apt given its history

As a foot note - would love to see piccies of the 390 SE FHC if anyone has anything.