Dartford toll free-flow system...(and increased payments)
Discussion
Gixer said:
You must cross at odd times of the day then, if you think it's better. It's clearly not, as backed by the regular users on here and the fact it's still often back to Jct 3, It was stuffed all four times I used it yesterday. Southbound has seen an improvement but Northbound is still terrible and it will always be as long as they are stopping all traffic for tankers and high vehicles.
I don't cross, but I commute from J4 to J2 every evening in rush hour, just after 5PM. Up until the introduction of free flow tolling, it was atrocious almost every night regularly queuing all the way back to J4.The moment the tolls went free flow, traffic eased pretty much overnight and stayed that way - even at peak times, my commute was quick and easy, and even at weekends, the traffic around the crossing was objectively better. I actually managed to start making "quick trips" to Thurrock on a Saturday afternoon
I agree that with the introduction of the barriers and the removal of the toll booths things have worsened again, but it still seems better than the pre-free flow introduction. I've been chatting to a couple of people I work with who live in Essex and they largely agree and have found the journey times improved.
Our experiences differ so we'll just have to disagree on what we deem an improvement I guess.
Gixer said:
Cheaper? Really? That's odd, I'm paying £3.34 for each round trip on my account. On my old Dart tag account I paid £2.66 a round trip. That isn't cheaper according to my maths, neither is it an improvement.
Yes, it is odd. I paid £2.00 per crossing on my old DART Tag.
With the free flow, the price went up to £2.50, but there was a 33% discount if you signed up for the DART Charge account.
So a price reduction of 83p to £1.67
Were you on a different tariff?
Gixer said:
They already have half the infrastructure there for the contra flow when tunnel works or bridge works are undertaken. Using the bridge 2 way really wouldn't be that hard and it would have permanent full-time infrastructure there for when closures were needed. Yes there would need to be a barrier on the bridge, again not impossible .
Before the 'improvements' when the bridge was closed high vehicles were diverted all the way round the M25. What would change?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the tunnel and bridge road space be divided equally between north/south carriageways? So presumably, if you want two northbound lanes to use the bridge, you're going to have to divert two southbound lanes to use one tunnel in order to maintain the same amount of lanes each way.Before the 'improvements' when the bridge was closed high vehicles were diverted all the way round the M25. What would change?
How can this be achieved with contra flows? At some point, the traffic flows will need to cross - which you can only practically do by building flyovers, surely?
I'm not arguing that it's not possible. Just not much more practical given the layout of the crossing and surrounding junctions/roads.
If you're proposing simply switching the direction of two lanes of the bridge, surely you're just going to reduce southbound capacity, which will lead to queuing the other way at peak times?
Gixer said:
The Chinese mange to build crossings from main land China into Hong Kong that flip the carriage ways from left hand drive to right hand drive, (google it) I'm sure we could build s switch over that can swap the 2 inside lanes onto the bridge and back again. Not really rocket science is it? It's pretty simple road building in fact and it's not like the crossing isn't robbing the hell out of us is it? It was paid for years ago and was supposed to be free then. Like every other road scheme is this country, it's done on the cheap with no real benefit for the long term.
Again, I'm not saying it's impossible, but comparing what the Chinese have done, with their political will, in a completely different physical environment, is hardly a fair comparison to the problems faced by the engineers trying to get the best out of an already overcrowded crossing an an already heavily developed area. As above, it seems you're just talking about switching traffic flows on the bridge - how will this work practically with the current road layout?As I said, I can't see how you can achieve it without flyovers. Yes, such road building is (relatively) simple. Such road building whilst maintaining a working crossing, in an environment surrounded by existing road junctions, development and the NIMBY culture is less so. I've no doubt a new crossing will come, but in the meantime, I think freeflow tolling was about the only solution that we could practically implement.
Gixer said:
As for the Blackwall, I think it is a new system. Part of the 'improvement' when they refurbed it and added average speed cameras and got rid of the tidal flow - another great way to add to congestion.
I drive a lot of miles in the UK and quite a few in Europe and one thing is clear, we are pretty bad at updating our infrastructure here in the UK compared to our neighbours and our lack of investment is really starting to bite us in the arse and it's only going to get worse.
I don't necessarily disagree. I think we should be forging ahead with new crossing options, but you only have to look at the uproar that's creating to see what I'm talking about with regards to NIMBYism. Dartford don't want a new bridge at the existent crossing and want it further downstream past Gravesend. Gravesend don't want it there because it will mean destroying swathes of countryside. But the further downstream the crossing goes, the more logistical challenges and expense. I say just build an massive great tunnel linking the M2 to the A13 and go under everything. Yes it will cost billions, but as you say, we should be looking at infrastructure projects like this as investments and just getting it done I drive a lot of miles in the UK and quite a few in Europe and one thing is clear, we are pretty bad at updating our infrastructure here in the UK compared to our neighbours and our lack of investment is really starting to bite us in the arse and it's only going to get worse.
Plenty of room there to make 1 tunnel north, 1 south. 2 lanes bridge north, 2 south. It's really not that hard, it would just need a fly over/ underpass. Not really complicated, something we were building regularly in the 50's and 60's, even in towns where space really was tight. Something we appear to have forgotten how to build. Mind you back then we built the M1 in 18 months, averaging a bridge every 2.5 days apparently. Now the answer to everything is traffic lights. Its not like we dont have the architects or engineers as most of the huge projects abroad have English architects and engineers behind them. Amazes me, how many people get stuck there day in day out. Its not even that big of a crossing when you compare it to some of the bridges and viaducts you drive across in France etc and compared to the tunnels you see in Europe they are tiny too. The cost to business and to the environment must be huge yet they didn't appear to have much difficulty building a new rail tunnel from Ebsfleet did they? They found plenty of room for it too. I wonder how many people use that everyday compared to how many use the M25 crossing everyday? Hell, look at what they're doing with cross rail in London where there is truly no space and yet a main route into London is still via a 100 odd year old tunnel. Laughable.
I've been saying for years that they should put a bridge to Benfleet, join it up with the A130, upgrade the 130 to motorway (most is already DC) and then you have a new link straight up to the North via Essex. Of course, if they didnt just move the A2 from one side of the Tollgate to the other (still cant get my head around the point of that, or the cost), and perhaps brought the M2 up on the new section to Northfleet but left the old (newly surfaced) A2 there as it was as an archery for Gravesend and the Hoo peninsular rather than putting a cycle park on it and leaving the rest to rot, we would have more infrastructure in place. While they're at it they need to build a Eurotunnel freight station in the midlands somewhere, so all the trucks driving all the way back to Folkestone can get on it earlier.
I've been saying for years that they should put a bridge to Benfleet, join it up with the A130, upgrade the 130 to motorway (most is already DC) and then you have a new link straight up to the North via Essex. Of course, if they didnt just move the A2 from one side of the Tollgate to the other (still cant get my head around the point of that, or the cost), and perhaps brought the M2 up on the new section to Northfleet but left the old (newly surfaced) A2 there as it was as an archery for Gravesend and the Hoo peninsular rather than putting a cycle park on it and leaving the rest to rot, we would have more infrastructure in place. While they're at it they need to build a Eurotunnel freight station in the midlands somewhere, so all the trucks driving all the way back to Folkestone can get on it earlier.
Edited by Gixer on Wednesday 8th July 00:11
jagracer said:
Esseesse said:
djstevec said:
f
k and bks....forgot to pay for my crossing on Sat afternoon. I guess paying this morning is too late to avoid being stiffed for £35?
Is this the fine? bk and bks....forgot to pay for my crossing on Sat afternoon. I guess paying this morning is too late to avoid being stiffed for £35?ks indeed. I'm not a regular user and went over this Sunday (day before yesterday) thinking where's the toll booth. I set up an account and put £10 on it this morning. Will I be hit with a fine (x2)? My crossing history had nothing in it!Best bet is to phone them up with the date and the reg No. and pay for that journey. Although I think you should pay by midnight the following day they are still waiving this and taking back payments for months previously.
Conscript said:
I don't cross, but I commute from J4 to J2 every evening in rush hour, just after 5PM. Up until the introduction of free flow tolling, it was atrocious almost every night regularly queuing all the way back to J4.
The moment the tolls went free flow, traffic eased pretty much overnight and stayed that way - even at peak times, my commute was quick and easy, and even at weekends, the traffic around the crossing was objectively better. I actually managed to start making "quick trips" to Thurrock on a Saturday afternoon
One regular evening rush hour journey does not provide a complete picture. To understand just how bad it is you need to see it throughout the day. The moment the tolls went free flow, traffic eased pretty much overnight and stayed that way - even at peak times, my commute was quick and easy, and even at weekends, the traffic around the crossing was objectively better. I actually managed to start making "quick trips" to Thurrock on a Saturday afternoon
I'm retired and live in Dartford. A sure sign of northbound gridlock is when the local roads at J1b become virtually impassable too.
Gixer said:
Plenty of room there to make 1 tunnel north, 1 south. 2 lanes bridge north, 2 south. It's really not that hard, it would just need a fly over/ underpass. Not really complicated,
Really? I agree with Conscript. I don't think you have really studied the road layout. J1a is much closer to the crossing than J31.The A208 slip road is a stone's throw from the southern ramp of the bridge - https://goo.gl/maps/hbzOm
This overhead view is from before the removal of the toll booths - https://goo.gl/maps/EWubT
It graphically illustrates how little space there is. How would you propose to implement your scheme?
Gixer said:
something we were building regularly in the 50's and 60's, even in towns where space really was tight. Something we appear to have forgotten how to build. Mind you back then we built the M1 in 18 months, averaging a bridge every 2.5 days apparently. Now the answer to everything is traffic lights.
You're comparing apples and pears. That was the exact opposite of the Dartford crossing scenario.The M1 was a brand new road with bridges at simple intersections with the existing network.
Furthermore there were far fewer vehicles around on those roads 55 years ago. A very different world.
https://aipetcher.wordpress.com/2012/11/02/motorwa...
I can still recall a trip in my fathers Jaguar at over the ton for miles on end. No speed limits back then.
We had lunch at the the Blue Boar - http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/Blue_Boar
I was going to stay with a friend in Long Buckby and he was off to Jaguar's HQ at Browns Lane.
Used the tunnel three times last week and every time it was red lights and truck removal time .
One for an Asda hightop artic ,he should know better !
The other two were Haz Mat vehicles .The monitors pick up the orange plates that haven't declared at the check point .
Anybody know the penalties incurred, if anything ?
One for an Asda hightop artic ,he should know better !
The other two were Haz Mat vehicles .The monitors pick up the orange plates that haven't declared at the check point .
Anybody know the penalties incurred, if anything ?
@RedDevil.
Sorry, I have. Having lived here all my life and crossing the crossing often several times a day since well before the QE2, I've had plenty of time to study the layout. Having a ppl, I've also looked at it from above a few times. And yes, things were done differently in the days of the M1, we now have newer technology and machines when a lot of work on the M1 was done by hand, thus we should be building things quicker and better. Not making excuses for the complete cock up that is this country's lack of modern infrastructure.
Our Euro neighbours manage to build new roads and infrastructure as do other countries around the world. I think if more people drove the miles I do in both this country and then in some other countries they'd see just how ridiculous this country has become.
With expanding population we have seen reducing of the roads. Councils removing roads, high streets, one way systems, dual carriage ways, making roads bused only. It isn't really a surprise this country is grinding to a a halt is it.... and then we have councils sitting there scratching their heads trying to work out why their town centre has died......
Sorry, I have. Having lived here all my life and crossing the crossing often several times a day since well before the QE2, I've had plenty of time to study the layout. Having a ppl, I've also looked at it from above a few times. And yes, things were done differently in the days of the M1, we now have newer technology and machines when a lot of work on the M1 was done by hand, thus we should be building things quicker and better. Not making excuses for the complete cock up that is this country's lack of modern infrastructure.
Our Euro neighbours manage to build new roads and infrastructure as do other countries around the world. I think if more people drove the miles I do in both this country and then in some other countries they'd see just how ridiculous this country has become.
With expanding population we have seen reducing of the roads. Councils removing roads, high streets, one way systems, dual carriage ways, making roads bused only. It isn't really a surprise this country is grinding to a a halt is it.... and then we have councils sitting there scratching their heads trying to work out why their town centre has died......
Totally agree, nothing gets built in the UK. We just get restrictions placed on existing roads and countless traffic lights to manage/delay the people trying to get anywhere. Roads are poorly maintained and resurfaced with the poor tar and chippings method which doesn't last long and damages cars for weeks due the extra stones being thrown about. The councils and government couldn't care less.
Hi
Went through the tunnel yesterday and have this morning gone online to pay the fee as a one off payment as I dont have an account and not a regular user.
However my reg isnt coming up? Have I got a free crossing?
If I put 1 digit of the reg in wrong it brings completely different car - Hyundai something or other.
What should I do? Do they manually re look at the unpaid ones in case the camera made a mistake on the reg?
Thanks!
Went through the tunnel yesterday and have this morning gone online to pay the fee as a one off payment as I dont have an account and not a regular user.
However my reg isnt coming up? Have I got a free crossing?
If I put 1 digit of the reg in wrong it brings completely different car - Hyundai something or other.
What should I do? Do they manually re look at the unpaid ones in case the camera made a mistake on the reg?
Thanks!
Royce44 said:
At rush hour, essex to kent is lovely, straight through. Kent to essex is regularly back to swanley still. I cant really see any solution to the issue all the while they close a tunnel temporarily to let petrol tankers through.
Build another bridge i say
Completely agree with this. There seems to be a lot more closing the tunnel than previously. And it seems to me that they close the tunnel for far too long i.e. put the lights to red, wait until the tunnel is clear, release the tankers, wait until they've cleared the tunnel and then put the lights to green. All of this can take 5 minutes which doesn't sound long but by that time the queue at the back could have increased by a few hundred yards. And do that a few times a day. Build another bridge i say
And of course now that there are no barriers there is nothing for them to lift to speed traffic up. And as for not charging when there's a 10 mile plus queue, that seems to have been conveniently forgotten about....
They were queuing back to Bean on the A2 when I came through last Friday afternoon.
They are still struggling with the concept of monthly statements too. Just downloaded my statement for the month of August and it contains a couple of crossings in July and runs up to the 4th August! Completely missing the rest of my crossings throughout August and yet they appear in crossing history. Not ideal when I have to submit this statement to accounts for my expense claims
They are still struggling with the concept of monthly statements too. Just downloaded my statement for the month of August and it contains a couple of crossings in July and runs up to the 4th August! Completely missing the rest of my crossings throughout August and yet they appear in crossing history. Not ideal when I have to submit this statement to accounts for my expense claims
I went through on Saturday for the first time in a few weeks and Kent > Essex was just ridiculous. I would say the delays were significantly worse than when the booths were in place although I can't understand or explain why. Comments above about closing a tunnel for tankers noted, that must be part of it but they always used to do that anyway (well, not close, but hold back while they escort).
Also, what are the two sets of barriers/lights on the western tunnel all about? We were queued behind the first set of barriers but there was a lone car in no man's land in front of the second set. MrsC said maybe it's in case you miss the first set, but on that basis they may as well have 10, 20, 100 sets of lights and barriers!
Whatever else it is or isn't, it's a bloody mess.
Also, what are the two sets of barriers/lights on the western tunnel all about? We were queued behind the first set of barriers but there was a lone car in no man's land in front of the second set. MrsC said maybe it's in case you miss the first set, but on that basis they may as well have 10, 20, 100 sets of lights and barriers!
Whatever else it is or isn't, it's a bloody mess.
Monday went through Essex > Kent like a hot knife through butter.
Kent > Essex though. Horrid. Somehow the tunnel just isn't working as well - and I just don't get it. 4 lanes, same speed restrictions and tailbacks as far as the eye could see. No restrictions in the tunnels, or on flow. Just stupidly F'ing slow. Really don't get it.
Kent > Essex though. Horrid. Somehow the tunnel just isn't working as well - and I just don't get it. 4 lanes, same speed restrictions and tailbacks as far as the eye could see. No restrictions in the tunnels, or on flow. Just stupidly F'ing slow. Really don't get it.
richleeds said:
Hi
Went through the tunnel yesterday and have this morning gone online to pay the fee as a one off payment as I dont have an account and not a regular user.
However my reg isnt coming up? Have I got a free crossing?
If I put 1 digit of the reg in wrong it brings completely different car - Hyundai something or other.
What should I do? Do they manually re look at the unpaid ones in case the camera made a mistake on the reg?
Thanks!
Have you thought about giving them a call?Went through the tunnel yesterday and have this morning gone online to pay the fee as a one off payment as I dont have an account and not a regular user.
However my reg isnt coming up? Have I got a free crossing?
If I put 1 digit of the reg in wrong it brings completely different car - Hyundai something or other.
What should I do? Do they manually re look at the unpaid ones in case the camera made a mistake on the reg?
Thanks!
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