Used cars...expensive?

Author
Discussion

PaulFontaine

629 posts

153 months

Sunday 14th August 2011
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Unrepentant is right in what he or she says 110%

Matt Harper

6,613 posts

200 months

Sunday 14th August 2011
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dvs_dave said:
Yep, figures. Just been going round some Chicago dealers close to me and the prices are still comical. Since when was an '06 300C SRT-8 with 60k miles worth $29k!?!?!?! Here it seems to be. Outrageous!

Having said that, Pontiac G8 GT's (aka Holden Commodore/Vauxhall VXR8) seem like a very good buy with an 08-09 with not many miles around the $20k mark. They're actually very good cars and the one I tried drove much better than the SRT-8 and felt just as quick.

Anything SUV shaped though is still a piss take.
I would agree that the sticker on your 06 300C is a bit of a stretch - but as with everything, cars like this are worth what a buyer is prepared to pay - and believe it or not, there are plenty of Mopar freaks who need 4 doors and want that engine and those brakes. SRT-8 300's and Chargers don't stick around, given my experience of working with this brand.
Likewise, I looked at a G8, but there were no used ones around at the time (I didn't care to lose my ass in depreciation on a new one). What goes against the Pontiac is that it looks very bland/dull, is sub-400hp and a dead mainstream brand is a dead brand, which ever way you slice it.
G8 is a lot smaller inside, has teeth jarring zeta shocks/suspension and a lousy auto trans, compared to the 300. 300 is a lot more expensive in terms of fuel consumption - but also easier to extract additional power/drivability, via a Diablo Predator.
A mothballed GXP might be worth something one day, of course.

dvs_dave

Original Poster:

8,581 posts

224 months

Tuesday 7th August 2012
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So, an update.

After approximately 12 months of browsing the classifieds, getting my head around the prices, test driving loads of different cars and weighing up the pros and cons I finally made a purchase.

But first brief summaries of the cars I tried.

Range Rover - looks great, comfy, lots of space. Ludicrous mpg, slow and boat like to drive and cumbersome around the city and iffy reliability.

Cayenne S & Turbo - comically rapid (Turbo), decent handling, reasonable interior space. Hideous looks, fearsome running costs

Infiniti FX45 - Quickish, decent handling, nice engine, quirky. Plastiky interior, not much room inside. Odd looks.

Pontiac G8 GT - Almost pulled the trigger on one of these. Good looks, pace and handling. Loads of room inside and not a common sight on the roads. Interior fairly decent however annoyingly lacking many normal convenience features.

Chrysler 300 SRT-8 - Looks good in brash way and goes well (in a straight line). Decent interior space. Very low rent interior, crashy suspension, felt old fashioned to drive and should have been quicker (G8 felt just as quick).

Dodge Magnum SRT-8 - same as above, but somehow much cooler and seemed to ride better.

Jeep GC SRT-8 - Hilariously quick, great looks and soundtrack. Interior a bit pokey space wise and as with all Chrysler products of this era, cheap and nasty inside. Also a bit of a dodgy image.

So can you see a pattern developing? Something with SRT in the name?

We'll you'd be wrong. Ended up buying an Audi A8L 4.2. Got it for a song (much cheper than equivalent age and mileage SRTs) from a Ford/Lincoln dealer who didn't really know anything about it and had it on their lot for a while. One ludicrously cheeky offer later and it was mine.

It's not quite as quick in a straight line some of the above, but its so much nicer to be in and drive, has so much more room and is still by all standards a quick car.

So there we have it. I tried to like the yank motors, but they just didn't compare as an overall package.

EK993

1,925 posts

250 months

Wednesday 8th August 2012
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Me too. Tried all sorts of yank stuff, from Camaro and Mustangs to Jeep SRT8 and Caddy SRX's. In the end ended up with a Range Rover Sport and a BMW 335i. Just couldn't beat the overall quality of the European brands. Desperately wanted to buy something American. I am eyeing up the new Viper GTS though.

Zumbruk

7,848 posts

259 months

Wednesday 8th August 2012
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PaulFontaine said:
I simply take solace in the fact that we in the US have much better roads
You're obviously not in Pennsylvania. Most of America has roads, PA has PennDoT.

Famous Graham

26,553 posts

224 months

Thursday 9th August 2012
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Zumbruk said:
PaulFontaine said:
I simply take solace in the fact that we in the US have much better roads
You're obviously not in Pennsylvania. Most of America has roads, PA has PennDoT.
Or Massachusetts. The Mass Pike should be called the Mass Puke - the camber changes, switches from concrete to tarmac (and back again), and potholes are incredible.

To the original point though, I haven't found a Zipcar yet (I hire from them, I don't have my own car) that is American, except the E150 Van. It's all Audis, Hondas and Mazdas

dvs_dave

Original Poster:

8,581 posts

224 months

Thursday 9th August 2012
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Too true. I use zipcar a lot for work. All Japanese, German or Swedish, with the exception of the recently added E350 vans and Chevy Volts in select areas.

Carfiend

3,186 posts

208 months

Thursday 9th August 2012
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I thought it was called the Mass Puke because it is always slammed with traffic. At least my experience of it from a couple of trips last year was traffic that makes the M25 look free flowing.

I can confirm however that the roads in Boston are a bit shoddy, however I expect that is due to changes in temp through the year while places there it does from hot to surface of the sun the roads don't get as hard a bashing.

Famous Graham

26,553 posts

224 months

Friday 10th August 2012
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Oh, the roads in towns themselves I can forgive. Just I expect the freeways to be a bit more looked after.

The 90's terrible.

Although my only comparison has been the 99 and 101 down the west coast from Seattle, the road east from LA to Vegas (can't remember the name) and all the highways around San Diego.

So...quite a few.

GavinPearson

5,715 posts

250 months

Friday 10th August 2012
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This is the joy of living in an area with cold winters and hot summers - roads that deteriorate quickly.

david968s

415 posts

229 months

Monday 13th August 2012
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dvs_dave - I think you have described a similar process of elimination that many of us have been through! Access to massive horse power has never been so cheap, but of course nothing really comes for free. Many of us can't live with the low quality interiors of the average American car, unfortunately.

A8s have been catching my eye for years - they are phenomenal value, but I am not sure that running costs will be significantly better than for a Cayenne Turbo. The mechanicals on both are pretty robust but they both have a lot of peripheral gear to go wrong. Anyway, neither would scare me from that point of view. I think you have made a great choice! .....wanders off to check the classifieds for A8s...

vetteheadracer

8,271 posts

252 months

Friday 17th August 2012
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The biggest hidden cost in buying a secondhand car is the tax! When I bought my ZR1 I had the pleasure of paying the state nearly $7k in tax. If I sold the car the next person what get to pay tax again based on the invoice price.

There are some stunning cars out there if you look, ZL1 Camaro convertible for example, $60k (ish) brand new this year.

unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Friday 17th August 2012
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vetteheadracer said:
The biggest hidden cost in buying a secondhand car is the tax! When I bought my ZR1 I had the pleasure of paying the state nearly $7k in tax. If I sold the car the next person what get to pay tax again based on the invoice price.

There are some stunning cars out there if you look, ZL1 Camaro convertible for example, $60k (ish) brand new this year.
Why is sales tax a hidden cost? It's added to just about everything at the point of sale. Sales tax is typically 7% although it varies state by state and it is calculated on the actual sales price, not the invoice. Sales tax is also offset by the tax credit when a car is traded in. So if you buy a car for $50k the sales tax typically due is $3500. If you trade a car in you only pay it on the balance, so if the trade is $30k you would pay $20k x 7% = $1400. When you sell the car the next person will pay sales tax based on what he pays for the car, not invoice, and again minus any tax credit. The system is identical for new cars.

vetteheadracer

8,271 posts

252 months

Friday 17th August 2012
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unrepentant said:
Why is sales tax a hidden cost? It's added to just about everything at the point of sale. Sales tax is typically 7% although it varies state by state and it is calculated on the actual sales price, not the invoice. Sales tax is also offset by the tax credit when a car is traded in. So if you buy a car for $50k the sales tax typically due is $3500. If you trade a car in you only pay it on the balance, so if the trade is $30k you would pay $20k x 7% = $1400. When you sell the car the next person will pay sales tax based on what he pays for the car, not invoice, and again minus any tax credit. The system is identical for new cars.
In the UK you pay sales tax (VAT) of 20% once when something is new, not secondhand.i.e. no VAT on secondhand cars.

In US someone pays Sales Tax (6.75% in Illinois for example) every time you buy the same car!

unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Friday 17th August 2012
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vetteheadracer said:
unrepentant said:
Why is sales tax a hidden cost? It's added to just about everything at the point of sale. Sales tax is typically 7% although it varies state by state and it is calculated on the actual sales price, not the invoice. Sales tax is also offset by the tax credit when a car is traded in. So if you buy a car for $50k the sales tax typically due is $3500. If you trade a car in you only pay it on the balance, so if the trade is $30k you would pay $20k x 7% = $1400. When you sell the car the next person will pay sales tax based on what he pays for the car, not invoice, and again minus any tax credit. The system is identical for new cars.
In the UK you pay sales tax (VAT) of 20% once when something is new, not secondhand.i.e. no VAT on secondhand cars.

In US someone pays Sales Tax (6.75% in Illinois for example) every time you buy the same car!
Umm.... I'm in the USA, in the car business...........

The car dealer in the UK pays VAT on his margin using something called the margin scheme. If he buys a car for 10k and sells it for 15k he pays 20% of 5k. He obviously passes that on to the consumer. So you pay VAT every time you buy a car in the UK from a dealer, used or not. You also pay 10% new car tax in the UK, so 30% in all on new cars.

In the USA you only pay the tax on the reducing value of the car, minus any trade in as outlined above.

Roo

11,503 posts

206 months

Saturday 18th August 2012
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unrepentant said:
The car dealer in the UK pays VAT on his margin using something called the margin scheme. If he buys a car for 10k and sells it for 15k he pays 20% of 5k. He obviously passes that on to the consumer.
No it doesn't get passed on as it's on the margin and is non-chargeable to the customer. It doesn't show on the invoice and is not reclaimable by the customer.

unrepentant said:
So you pay VAT every time you buy a car in the UK from a dealer, used or not.
Not on used you don't, see above.

On new cars it is always included in the price. So the preice you see is the price you pay, you don't suddenly have to come up with more money on top.
On a new car the VAT element is broken down so it can be reclaimed under certain circumstances. This is not possible on margin scheme used cars.


unrepentant said:
You also pay 10% new car tax in the UK, so 30% in all on new cars.

Sure about that?

Once a car has been sold into private hands the VAT element disappears and is never charged onto a customer ever again.

unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Saturday 18th August 2012
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Roo. VAT is charged on used car sales, it's 20% of the dealers margin. It's included in the price but it's naieve in the extreme to think that it's not the consumer who pays it! You're a dealer, you know that. New car tax is obviously only charged on the initial sale but it's one of the reasons (along with VAT) that new cars appear to be much cheaper in the US. The US system whereby sales tax is added at the "till" just makes it more transparent, the punter knows how much he's paying. With used cars in the UK you don't know the VAT element unless the dealer discloses his margin. I operated a margin scheme business in the UK myself for 10 years.

Edited by unrepentant on Saturday 18th August 12:39

Roo

11,503 posts

206 months

Saturday 18th August 2012
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unrepentant said:
Roo. VAT is charged on used car sales, it's 20% of the dealers margin. It's included in the price but it's naieve in the extreme to think that it's not the consumer who pays it! You're a dealer, you know that.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. As it's never dislosed to the purchaser, and comes out of the dealers margin, how can it be the customer who is paying it?

unrepentant said:
New car tax is obviously only charged on the initial sale
I haven't seen new car sales tax over here since some time in the nineties.

unrepentant said:
it's one of the reasons (along with VAT) that new cars appear to be much cheaper in the US.
Again, we'll have to agree to disagree. The cost of new cars in either country has no relation to what they cost in the other.

unrepentant said:
The US system whereby sales tax is added at the "till" just makes it more transparent,
It's just a different system to ours. Here the price is on the road. There is nothing else to pay on top. Clear and simple and cut and dried.

The US system works in the US because that's the way it has been for a long time and US citizens understand it. To other people it can seem a strange way to do things. "Here's a price for something, but don't expect to pay that for it. It's going to cost more when you actually go to pay for it"

I'm not knowledgeable enough to knwo how many other countreis work that way but I would expect it to be fewer than those that do it the other way where the sales tax is included. Happy to be proved wrong though.

unrepentant said:
With used cars in the UK you don't know the VAT element unless the dealer discloses his margin.
Which is never going to happen because it's completely irrelevant to the person buying the car.

Deva Link

26,934 posts

244 months

Saturday 18th August 2012
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Roo said:
unrepentant said:
Roo. VAT is charged on used car sales, it's 20% of the dealers margin. It's included in the price but it's naieve in the extreme to think that it's not the consumer who pays it! You're a dealer, you know that.
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that. As it's never dislosed to the purchaser, and comes out of the dealers margin, how can it be the customer who is paying it?
I'm not really sure what you're thinking of here, but of course the customer pays. The customer pays for everything; prep cost, warranty, VAT, business overheads, salesman's salary etc etc.

OK, none of those things are itemised out on the bill, but if they're not wrapped up in the price then the business won't be around too long!

And effectively, the original new car VAT paid stays in the car for its whole life, depreciating at the same rate as the car.

Edited by Deva Link on Saturday 18th August 14:35

unrepentant

21,212 posts

255 months

Saturday 18th August 2012
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Roo said:
unrepentant said:
New car tax is obviously only charged on the initial sale
I haven't seen new car sales tax over here since some time in the nineties.
My mistake.