The Future with LNT
Discussion
There have been several views aired about the efffect the takeover by LNT will have on the future of Ginetta so I just wondered what the consensus is on this forum.
Will manufacturing of both road and race cars go from strength to strength with an injection of new capital?
Will Ginetta play a constant "second fiddle" to LNT's other motor racing interests?......
........ And sink without trace in a couple of years?
Will a more secure financial future finally shut up the detractors of "new Ginetta"?
Have we seen the end of the Ginetta race series in its old guise as a fun place for everyone to enjoy affordable racing as LNT strive to make it a feeder series for young aspiring drivers?
Let's hear your views.
Eddy.
Will manufacturing of both road and race cars go from strength to strength with an injection of new capital?
Will Ginetta play a constant "second fiddle" to LNT's other motor racing interests?......
........ And sink without trace in a couple of years?
Will a more secure financial future finally shut up the detractors of "new Ginetta"?
Have we seen the end of the Ginetta race series in its old guise as a fun place for everyone to enjoy affordable racing as LNT strive to make it a feeder series for young aspiring drivers?
Let's hear your views.
Eddy.
I think we all know what we would like to see happen as it's previously been discussed. I'm not sure how else your question can be answered, other than through speculation about what could happen in which case how longs a piece a string? All i will add is that LNT automotive have developed into something major in a short space of time and seem to take what they do very seriously.
I'm optimistic, but i've never been anything else about ginetta. I would rather wait and see what the future holds rather than speculating on something which we have no idea about? Ginetta have said they wish to develop a motorsport centre of excellence in the north, along with developing the road side of the business, which may include refining the G20 or a new model. I would say this is a pretty good mission statement to be going on with....
It is interesting that this thread was started on a public site and not the GOC chatroom...
In all sincerity I wish Lawrence Tomlinson the very best in his quest to rebuild Ginetta Cars as a genuine manufacturer of real British sportscars. He could do a lot worse than finding a way to re-acquire the rights to the G4 and the G12, then invest in the basic design by making them less labour-intensive to produce and to ensure SVA compliance (the numbers would probably not justify Type Approval)- and use modern Japanese bike engines to drive them.
Get the quality and the pricing right, and people will buy what are probably among the most beautiful sportscars to hit the streets from any generation, and the race series could also migrate towards these cars.
Z Cars (zcars.org.uk) seem to be able to charge a small fortune for a Hayabusa-powered Mini or Lotus Elise, so what price a Hayabusa G12, I wonder - take my Dare G4 as an exchange, Lawrence?
In all sincerity I wish Lawrence Tomlinson the very best in his quest to rebuild Ginetta Cars as a genuine manufacturer of real British sportscars. He could do a lot worse than finding a way to re-acquire the rights to the G4 and the G12, then invest in the basic design by making them less labour-intensive to produce and to ensure SVA compliance (the numbers would probably not justify Type Approval)- and use modern Japanese bike engines to drive them.
Get the quality and the pricing right, and people will buy what are probably among the most beautiful sportscars to hit the streets from any generation, and the race series could also migrate towards these cars.
Z Cars (zcars.org.uk) seem to be able to charge a small fortune for a Hayabusa-powered Mini or Lotus Elise, so what price a Hayabusa G12, I wonder - take my Dare G4 as an exchange, Lawrence?
LNT released a press release yesterday, it's on the GOC website in the members section. You all have access as memebers of the GOC. www.ginetta.org
Yes indeed, very worthy stuff - I read it yesterday before I started this thread. It made me wonder how much of it is piffle and how much real good LNT will actually do.
Already, it seems that the AVO Ginetta G20 race series is destined to become a second class citizen next to the Ginetta Juniors - perhaps something to do with the relative disparity of potential new car sales in the two?
Although he has had many knockers (tee hee!), you cannot deny that Mr Phaff has a real passion and drive for Ginetta which has kept him, and Ginetta, going through some difficult years (and you don't have to like him or agree with what he's done to agree with this.) Will we see that same commitment from Mr Tomlinson?
Already, it seems that the AVO Ginetta G20 race series is destined to become a second class citizen next to the Ginetta Juniors - perhaps something to do with the relative disparity of potential new car sales in the two?
Although he has had many knockers (tee hee!), you cannot deny that Mr Phaff has a real passion and drive for Ginetta which has kept him, and Ginetta, going through some difficult years (and you don't have to like him or agree with what he's done to agree with this.) Will we see that same commitment from Mr Tomlinson?
map said:
Already, it seems that the AVO Ginetta G20 race series is destined to become a second class citizen next to the Ginetta Juniors - perhaps something to do with the relative disparity of potential new car sales in the two?
The senior race series has its largest number of registered entrants ever this year. Hardly second class citizens. I didn't read anything in the press release to suggest that this would not continue.
Daydreamer, are you blind? ..... Yep me too! Looks like good news all the way.
LNT asking Ginetta owners how they'd like to see the marque develop really is something for the whingers to get excited about. Now they can put their case to the guy who really matters... and I hope they do. I'm relatively new to Ginettas but was attacted by the the heritage of the marque, so come on guys get behind Ginetta and help it become what the 4 brothers would have wanted.
LNT asking Ginetta owners how they'd like to see the marque develop really is something for the whingers to get excited about. Now they can put their case to the guy who really matters... and I hope they do. I'm relatively new to Ginettas but was attacted by the the heritage of the marque, so come on guys get behind Ginetta and help it become what the 4 brothers would have wanted.
map said:
Yes indeed, very worthy stuff - I read it yesterday before I started this thread. It made me wonder how much of it is piffle and how much real good LNT will actually do.
Already, it seems that the AVO Ginetta G20 race series is destined to become a second class citizen next to the Ginetta Juniors - perhaps something to do with the relative disparity of potential new car sales in the two?
Am i reading things in a foreign language or something? Where are you getting this stuff from as i, and others, it would seem have drawn different conclusions from what has been said... i'm slightly confused by your conclusions. Which bit are you classing as piffle and where did you draw the conclusion that the g20 race series is playing second fiddle? I'm not saying youe are right or wrong, just need an explination,.
I do hope your comments aren't what they appear to be...
Hi James,
I have not so far sought to express my own views on the "piffle/good" ratio in what LNT have issued to date - I have simply asked for other people's views. And I don't know what my comments "appear to be..." to you - maybe some recent exchanges in this forum have got you seeing shadows before sunrise? Anyway, I can assure you that I have absolutely no ulterior motive and am merely trying to stimulate some harmless debate and wild speculation.
That said, I seem to have given away my suspicion that the hugely successful AVO Championship does not have the priority some (most?) of us feel it deserves. Pretty soon - maybe in one year's time? - the G20 will have to be replaced as the principal senior racing car. Do you think LNT expect the current perennial racers all to replace their cars after just a few seasons? What use can most of those same drivers make of this year's test drive prize for winning the championship? Also, is repeating three circuits in one season giving the best value and variety for amateur "pleasure" racers?
More comments invited......................
Eddy.
I have not so far sought to express my own views on the "piffle/good" ratio in what LNT have issued to date - I have simply asked for other people's views. And I don't know what my comments "appear to be..." to you - maybe some recent exchanges in this forum have got you seeing shadows before sunrise? Anyway, I can assure you that I have absolutely no ulterior motive and am merely trying to stimulate some harmless debate and wild speculation.
That said, I seem to have given away my suspicion that the hugely successful AVO Championship does not have the priority some (most?) of us feel it deserves. Pretty soon - maybe in one year's time? - the G20 will have to be replaced as the principal senior racing car. Do you think LNT expect the current perennial racers all to replace their cars after just a few seasons? What use can most of those same drivers make of this year's test drive prize for winning the championship? Also, is repeating three circuits in one season giving the best value and variety for amateur "pleasure" racers?
More comments invited......................
Eddy.
Map said:
Pretty soon - maybe in one year's time? - the G20 will have to be replaced as the principal senior racing car. Do you think LNT expect the current perennial racers all to replace their cars after just a few seasons?
This is very insightful - the reason why most one-make series grow, then fade away is because the manufacturer sees it as either a) a marketing exercise designed to make a basically dull car more attractive (remember the VW Vento Challenge?), or b) to create a new sales channel. Caterham have done it well by coming up with a series of variations on the one-make theme, but even they run the risk of running out of options with only one basic chassis design.
For all its success - and there is no doubting that - my concern is that there has to be somewhere for current G20 owners to develop and progress, and if Ginetta does not provide that, these drivers will look elsewhere. From a business risk perspective, it is a better plan to assume that most G20 series drivers are more interested in great racing than they are the marque. For example, if LNT were to decide that the next step in their driver development programme is a semi-enduro one-make series using Panoz Esperantos, what future the Ginetta marque in the longer term?
In short, if the Ginetta marque is to flourish as a racing car manufacturer, then we have to hope that LNT has a business plan that includes a Ginetta motorsport ladder - check out www.caterham.co.uk/motorsport/inde if you want a good example. The G20 Junior Cup is a great idea but, assuming the successful junior goes on to the AVO G20 series, where does his motor-racing career go if he is equally successful there, and how does it help the Ginetta marque sell more race cars?
[quote=Broomco(600)LTD]For all its success - and there is no doubting that - my concern is that there has to be somewhere for current G20 owners to develop and progress, and if Ginetta does not provide that, these drivers will look elsewhere. From a business risk perspective, it is a better plan to assume that most G20 series drivers are more interested in great racing than they are the marque. For example, if LNT were to decide that the next step in their driver development programme is a semi-enduro one-make series using Panoz Esperantos, what future the Ginetta marque in the longer term?
In short, if the Ginetta marque is to flourish as a racing car manufacturer, then we have to hope that LNT has a business plan that includes a Ginetta motorsport ladder - check out www.caterham.co.uk/motorsport/inde if you want a good example. The G20 Junior Cup is a great idea but, assuming the successful junior goes on to the AVO G20 series, where does his motor-racing career go if he is equally successful there, and how does it help the Ginetta marque sell more race cars?[/quote]I'll reiterate that I can't see where these ideas are coming from.
Admittedly I have taken the aparently crazy step of actually talking to the people involved and seeing where the plans are taking the company - but hey, that's just me. Obviously the best thing to do is to read a press release then make up what you thought it said
The G20 seniors series is successful for two reasons. 1 - it is very competitive and 2 - it is cheap.
The idea of the current racers - some on a budget of <£10k per season (yes, that is per season and not per race) are as far away from a Panoz enduo as the average track day bod. These racers are why the championship is successful - Ginetta have done well to recruit them and keep them.
The series has now been enhanced as in addition to playing for a £600 championship winner cheque, there is also a test in the LNT GT car - so there is somewhere to go for the very talented (or perhaps the very rich, although money doesn't make that much difference in the G20's).
The other thing that needs to be considered is that Ginetta was never a threat to LNT's other interests - therefore why buy it unless you wanted it to grow.
In short, if the Ginetta marque is to flourish as a racing car manufacturer, then we have to hope that LNT has a business plan that includes a Ginetta motorsport ladder - check out www.caterham.co.uk/motorsport/inde if you want a good example. The G20 Junior Cup is a great idea but, assuming the successful junior goes on to the AVO G20 series, where does his motor-racing career go if he is equally successful there, and how does it help the Ginetta marque sell more race cars?[/quote]I'll reiterate that I can't see where these ideas are coming from.
Admittedly I have taken the aparently crazy step of actually talking to the people involved and seeing where the plans are taking the company - but hey, that's just me. Obviously the best thing to do is to read a press release then make up what you thought it said
The G20 seniors series is successful for two reasons. 1 - it is very competitive and 2 - it is cheap.
The idea of the current racers - some on a budget of <£10k per season (yes, that is per season and not per race) are as far away from a Panoz enduo as the average track day bod. These racers are why the championship is successful - Ginetta have done well to recruit them and keep them.
The series has now been enhanced as in addition to playing for a £600 championship winner cheque
, there is also a test in the LNT GT car - so there is somewhere to go for the very talented (or perhaps the very rich, although money doesn't make that much difference in the G20's). The other thing that needs to be considered is that Ginetta was never a threat to LNT's other interests - therefore why buy it unless you wanted it to grow.
jamesg20 said:
[quote]I'll reiterate that I can't see where these ideas are coming from.
Admittedly I have taken the aparently crazy step of actually talking to the people involved and seeing where the plans are taking the company - but hey, that's just me. Obviously the best thing to do is to read a press release then make up what you thought it said
I think it's pretty clear they are not coming from the press releases or indeed the reality of the race series competitiors, as no-one else has drawn the same conclusions. I think daydreamer as a competitor in the series knows more than most what exactly its success and future plans are.
Whats the source for this info, or indeed is there one? I'm all for FAIR debate but if you posting what appear to be 'truths' without any identifiable source do we need need a bit of this....?
I hope not.
>> Edited by jamesg20 on Thursday 9th March 10:41[/quote]
Ideas, speculation and opinions are the basis of fair debate. We will only know the "truth" with the benefit of hindsight.
I admit that I have not personally always agreed with (for example) Broomco's views in this forum, but his posts above are well reasoned and offer an opinion which is worthy of comment and debate. There have not been any lies or vindictiveness in this thread (so far!) and I hope it stays that way. If you disagree with somebody else's view then say so and offer a contra argument - there's no need to ridicule the poster's (possible) motives.
I agree that Daydreamer's views as a G20 racer are very valid and I am glad he has contributed to this thread. But other people with other perspectives can also hold valuable views that are different - thank goodness, without this then there would be no point having a forum for debate.
And please remember that press releases are really free advertising - do you believe every advert you read? The intention of this thread is absolutely not to knock LNT - I personally support their stated objectives whole heartedly and wish them every success - but it is intended simply to stimulate debate on the future of everything Ginetta in light of their takeover. Can they deliver everything they promise?
Eddy.
I admit that I have not personally always agreed with (for example) Broomco's views in this forum, but his posts above are well reasoned and offer an opinion which is worthy of comment and debate. There have not been any lies or vindictiveness in this thread (so far!) and I hope it stays that way. If you disagree with somebody else's view then say so and offer a contra argument - there's no need to ridicule the poster's (possible) motives.
I agree that Daydreamer's views as a G20 racer are very valid and I am glad he has contributed to this thread. But other people with other perspectives can also hold valuable views that are different - thank goodness, without this then there would be no point having a forum for debate.
And please remember that press releases are really free advertising - do you believe every advert you read? The intention of this thread is absolutely not to knock LNT - I personally support their stated objectives whole heartedly and wish them every success - but it is intended simply to stimulate debate on the future of everything Ginetta in light of their takeover. Can they deliver everything they promise?
Eddy.
Exactly right, Map. The thread was started as a reasonable discussion, but straightaway people start challenging comment in an unecessarily aggressive way - is 'free speech' something we are not meant to value in our society?
Daydreamer - If you read all of my comments, you will learn and understand that I have nothing but praise for the way the AVO Ginetta series has been developed - I was simply drawing some comparisons with other series and asking the question - where does the Ginetta series go from here?
True, there will always be people who race a G20 because it is affordable, but there will also be others who look at Lawrence's own career as a driver and hope that the same path to professional motorsport is open to them. Given LNT's other interests and business partners, it cannot be certain that the motorsport ladder Lawrence has in mind for his high-flying juniors will focus solely on the Ginetta marque.
For the avoidance of doubt, I don't have any private agenda - I am simply an enthusasist who has been a Ginetta fan for 40 years,and one who wants to see the marque thrive and develop. To that extent I really don't care who is in charge or who builds the cars - I just want to see more of them being built for the road rather than the racetrack.
Daydreamer - If you read all of my comments, you will learn and understand that I have nothing but praise for the way the AVO Ginetta series has been developed - I was simply drawing some comparisons with other series and asking the question - where does the Ginetta series go from here?
True, there will always be people who race a G20 because it is affordable, but there will also be others who look at Lawrence's own career as a driver and hope that the same path to professional motorsport is open to them. Given LNT's other interests and business partners, it cannot be certain that the motorsport ladder Lawrence has in mind for his high-flying juniors will focus solely on the Ginetta marque.
For the avoidance of doubt, I don't have any private agenda - I am simply an enthusasist who has been a Ginetta fan for 40 years,and one who wants to see the marque thrive and develop. To that extent I really don't care who is in charge or who builds the cars - I just want to see more of them being built for the road rather than the racetrack.
If you do not have an agenda i have one simple question why are you still persisting with your childish choice of name which came about as a result of your collusion with the now banned toweringeagle? I seem to remember you defending him and claiming everyone had a right to free speech.... well we now all know who he was and what he was up to, and we shouldn't discuss the idiot any further - well not until we meet in person anyway.
But if you are not of the same vein, then whats with the name, it's not doing you any favours i'm afraid. I don't want to argue with anyone, but i won't stand by and let people peddle things which aren't true on public forums unchallenged.
But if you are not of the same vein, then whats with the name, it's not doing you any favours i'm afraid. I don't want to argue with anyone, but i won't stand by and let people peddle things which aren't true on public forums unchallenged.
jamesg20 said:
If you do not have an agenda i have one simple question why are you still persisting with your childish choice of name which came about as a result of your collusion with the now banned toweringeagle? I seem to remember you defending him and claiming everyone had a right to free speech.... well we now all know who he was and what he was up to, and we shouldn't discuss the idiot any further - well not until we meet in person anyway.
But if you are not of the same vein, then whats with the name, it's not doing you any favours i'm afraid. I don't want to argue with anyone, but i won't stand by and let people peddle things which aren't true on public forums unchallenged.
Collusion! I could not even tell you who Toweringeagle is, and I really don't want to know - or care, to be honest. As I stated quite early on in the debate, I don't necessarily share the views of either Toweringeagle or Dandarez, but I do reserve the right to my own views.
No doubt this post will be removed from the site as well as all the others but, if you could check back, all I have pointed out in earlier postings is that the financial affairs if Ginetta Cars Ltd and the various companies involved are a matter of public record if anyone wants to find out exactly what has happened over the years and that, if people wish to consider whether or not the company has been well run in all that time, then they should study the public record and then form their own opinion.
For my own part, I can state quite categorically that I have never 'peddled things which aren't true' - and I don't think I have insulted you so I would ask that you treat me with the same respect. Chatrooms are meant to be an exchange of views without malice, and calling someone a liar is really, really out of order.
By my own admission in an earlier post, the choice of name was a joke - if it offends you then I will change it. However, I could be equally childish and point out that anyone who puts 'G20' in their own name clearly has a personal agenda of their own?
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