RE: RS200 for sale

[Podie]

adam towler said:

Podie said:

article said:

Quite how you could own this creation and then clock up such a tiny mileage...

The writer of the article has clearly never been behind the wheel of 200...

Two in fact.

First car had just over 300bhp, but needed a bit of sorting. It felt fast, but was really heavy to drive and a lot of work. I can see where the reputation comes from when they're in this state as I wouldn't fancy trying to get it out of a slide...

Since then, I've been fortunate enough to get some good miles in the Ford Heritage fleet example, which has been lovingly restored apart from the engine. Although 'Magic' at Ford reckons it barely puts out 200bhp - and it doesn't feel any faster than a modern turbo hatch to be honest - it handles beautifully, with fairly light controls and a great sense of balance. It can still be hard work, and the clutch is a pain in traffic, but the drive added to the thrill of being in a genuine RS200 makes it one of the most satisfying cars I've driven.

AT
Editor

Edited by adam towler on Monday 25th June 10:35

I stand corrected - I apologise.

The example I drove I found a real handful, but unlike a large proportion of PH I do not claim to be a driving God. As a mere mortal I found it heavy, clunky and agricultural... but one hell of an experience.

I have also been fortunate enough to be a passenger in a rally spec variant, driven by a certain Welsh bus driver (and an Escort Cosworth, and RS2000 "kit car&quot, which quite simply was brutal... but watching a pro saw away at the wheel was something to behold.

[Roop]

Podie said:

Roop said:

Looking at the advert, it's a 2.1 which makes it the Evolution model. The originals were 1.8. (These engines are Ford BDT by the way, not 'Cossie' YB)

IIRC there were 20 "original" Evos and another 4 were converted at a later date.

Which must make it quite rare. I don't know about £70k rare, but I bet it's not far off the mark...

[adam towler]

Podie said:

adam towler said:

Podie said:

article said:

Quite how you could own this creation and then clock up such a tiny mileage...

The writer of the article has clearly never been behind the wheel of 200...

Two in fact.

First car had just over 300bhp, but needed a bit of sorting. It felt fast, but was really heavy to drive and a lot of work. I can see where the reputation comes from when they're in this state as I wouldn't fancy trying to get it out of a slide...

Since then, I've been fortunate enough to get some good miles in the Ford Heritage fleet example, which has been lovingly restored apart from the engine. Although 'Magic' at Ford reckons it barely puts out 200bhp - and it doesn't feel any faster than a modern turbo hatch to be honest - it handles beautifully, with fairly light controls and a great sense of balance. It can still be hard work, and the clutch is a pain in traffic, but the drive added to the thrill of being in a genuine RS200 makes it one of the most satisfying cars I've driven.

AT
Editor

Edited by adam towler on Monday 25th June 10:35

I stand corrected - I apologise.

The example I drove I found a real handful, but unlike a large proportion of PH I do not claim to be a driving God. As a mere mortal I found it heavy, clunky and agricultural... but one hell of an experience.

I have also been fortunate enough to be a passenger in a rally spec variant, driven by a certain Welsh bus driver (and an Escort Cosworth, and RS2000 "kit car&quot, which quite simply was brutal... but watching a pro saw away at the wheel was something to behold.

Wow - that must have been awesome sitting next to Gwyndaf...

My favourite Evans image is of him somewhere way north of the limit in that pink whale tail Cossie 'Mr Tomkinson' carpets or whatever it was called. Awesome. Makes you wish you had a time machine...

I think the main thing you come away with from a drive in an RS200 is a feeling of respect for those that drove them in anger. Even as a road car, you can't even begin to compare it to a Scooby or Evo. It's such a physical car, and one where it's the driver who NEEDS to make the difference and have the right blend of skills and frankly, courage. Even if you let your concentration drift for a moment you end up cocking up a gear change or doing something clumsily.

Something else that comes to mind, is that amongst a certain section of society, I've known little that could match an RS200 for attention on the road - not even a weird-green LP640. I remember driving the press RS200 in SW London and a car full of lads in an Impreza drawing alongside. I genuinely though they were going to crash as the driver wasn't making any attempt to look at the road. They just couldn't believe it was an RS200 and seemed almost as excited as I was. That's one of the nice things about the car - not only did I love the overall experience of it - and never, ever, ever wanted to give it back! - but other car nuts got real enjoyment from seeing it to. Great stuff...

AT
Editor

[Elmo B. Strokes]

Roop said:

Looking at the advert, it's a 2.1 which makes it the Evolution model. The originals were 1.8. (These engines are Ford BDT by the way, not 'Cossie' YB)

Actually, you'll find that the Evolution-spec engine has the moniker "BDT-E", not "BDT" as stated above.

Those who built these engines are known to consider the units to be at least 50 bhp underpar. Once again, I would question that "dyno" - was it actually connected up to the right engine? Was the dyno run conducted via the post? See comments in this thread relating to the mechanic "Magic".

I would be happy to chair a pub meet to discuss all things RS200.

Edited by Elmo B. Strokes on Monday 25th June 18:34

[justin1230smith]

..... since then, I've been fortunate enough to get some good miles in the Ford Heritage fleet example .....

Adam Towler
Editor

/////////////////////////////

Adam,

I seem to remember you having a go of my one around the main roads of Boreham and getting a little "caught out" with the standard road clutch !!

P.S Would be nice to see those last Boreham photos some time.

[unclemark123]

well guys.firstly if this reply is written poorly its because I'm away from home on my pda ! I've just had a email from the rs200.org who inform me the chassis number is not an original 1 to 200 car. he suggests its built from spares as I suggested previously. its not an evo nether.they had a lot more than 350 bhp.but were 2.1 litre. the price is def to high too.even with low milage. now before you shoot me down I'm not slating the car I love it. just explaining its history. mark

[Roop]

Elmo B. Strokes said:

Roop said:

Looking at the advert, it's a 2.1 which makes it the Evolution model. The originals were 1.8. (These engines are Ford BDT by the way, not 'Cossie' YB)

Actually, you'll find that the Evolution-spec engine has the moniker "BDT-E", not "BDT" as stated above.

The BDT and BDT-E are the same engine essentially - the BDT-E being an evolution of the BDT rather than a completely different unit like the YB (which a lot of people think powered the RS200). The BDT-E, unlike the BDT was not developed by Cosworth but by Brian Hart and supposedly only started out at 550bhp which makes me wonder what the unit in the advertised car actually is. Furthermore, as far as I am aware, the BDT-E was never a production engine (ie: did not go into any road cars, only rallycross cars). After a change in regs, this is the reason that for many rallycross championships the RS200's were fitted with the uprated YB lump from the RS500 Cosworth as the regs stated they had to use a production engine.

Edited by Roop on Tuesday 26th June 09:23

[The Dodger]

A very nice unoriginal example. I have to agree it's probably not worth it through lack of provenance.

Working on this car programme was my first job for a new part of FMC called Climate Control Division. I was part of the team responsible for the heater, ventilation and engine cooling. I was there from early '84 and followed the progress of the car's production development. Starting from Tony Southgate's ART premises (proto builds) with Mike Pilbeam and John Thompson through Boreham prep builds with John Wheeler and Mike Moreton etc for launch at the Italian Motor Show. The cars were all assembled at the Two Gates facility in Shenstone, Tamworth site of the original Reliant Scimiar plant. When Group B cars were banned, the unsold cars were productionised for road use at Tickford, Milton Keynes. They made less than the required 200 cars (fact).

I managed to borrow one "for test/development" work. It was an early race version and the clutch was a b*stard - but it went like stink. The racing clutch was changed for the road use versions but I never got to try one of those.

I have loads of photos of cars in build and promo stuff including original Press Release package. I'm very close to this car which holds very fond memories of working on it and the guys at Boreham.

[Elmo B. Strokes]

Roop said:

Elmo B. Strokes said:

Roop said:

Looking at the advert, it's a 2.1 which makes it the Evolution model. The originals were 1.8. (These engines are Ford BDT by the way, not 'Cossie' YB)

Actually, you'll find that the Evolution-spec engine has the moniker "BDT-E", not "BDT" as stated above.

[quote]

The BDT and BDT-E are the same engine essentially - the BDT-E being an evolution of the BDT rather than a completely different unit like the YB (which a lot of people think powered the RS200). The BDT-E, unlike the BDT was not developed by Cosworth but by Brian Hart and supposedly only started out at 550bhp which makes me wonder what the unit in the advertised car actually is. Furthermore, as far as I am aware, the BDT-E was never a production engine (ie: did not go into any road cars, only rallycross cars). After a change in regs, this is the reason that for many rallycross championships the RS200's were fitted with the uprated YB lump from the RS500 Cosworth as the regs stated they had to use a production engine.

Group B rules stipulated that at least 200 production cars had to have been produced (although RS200 production never reached that level). Of the 200, 20 could be Evolution-spec. It is therefore possible that road-registered cars could have been fitted with the BDT-E engine.

With regards to the value of this car - given it's not too far away from an RS200 "bitsa" I am rescinding my £50k tops valuation; £30k would be more suitable.

Cheers and warm regards
Elmo.

[Roop]

Roop said:

The BDT and BDT-E are the same engine essentially - the BDT-E being an evolution of the BDT rather than a completely different unit like the YB (which a lot of people think powered the RS200). The BDT-E, unlike the BDT was not developed by Cosworth but by Brian Hart and supposedly only started out at 550bhp which makes me wonder what the unit in the advertised car actually is. Furthermore, as far as I am aware, the BDT-E was never a production engine (ie: did not go into any road cars, only rallycross cars). After a change in regs, this is the reason that for many rallycross championships the RS200's were fitted with the uprated YB lump from the RS500 Cosworth as the regs stated they had to use a production engine.

Elmo B. Strokes said:

Group B rules stipulated that at least 200 production cars had to have been produced (although RS200 production never reached that level). Of the 200, 20 could be Evolution-spec. It is therefore possible that road-registered cars could have been fitted with the BDT-E engine.

Could be right, although the Evo was always planned, it wasn't actually created (or, AFAIK, all the parts to mod the original cars) until after Gr.B had been banned. This ban came in so fast - as a result of Toivonen and Cresto's accident Balestre banned Gr.B within hours, so Ford never got to 200 factory cars anyway. No new factory cars were ever built as Evos which means that they are all converts from standard cars. Couple this to the small number of road cars and a genuine factory built roadgoing Evo is a very slim proposition indeed. I am fairly certain there are no factory Evos bar perhaps a couple of mules - I fully expect all the Evos have been created by customers themselves buying the neccessary Evolution parts to convert existing cars. Given that race customers then were likely fitting the cars with RS500 YB's for rallycross use, and no roadgoing customer, save a crazy few, would mod a roadgoing RS200 to Evolution, the number of BDT-E's diminishes further.

Interesting tale the RS200 and something I would like to learn more about.

Edited to fix typoos

Edited by Roop on Tuesday 26th June 09:39

[Podie]

adam towler said:

Podie said:

adam towler said:

Podie said:

article said:

Quite how you could own this creation and then clock up such a tiny mileage...

The writer of the article has clearly never been behind the wheel of 200...

Two in fact.

First car had just over 300bhp, but needed a bit of sorting. It felt fast, but was really heavy to drive and a lot of work. I can see where the reputation comes from when they're in this state as I wouldn't fancy trying to get it out of a slide...

Since then, I've been fortunate enough to get some good miles in the Ford Heritage fleet example, which has been lovingly restored apart from the engine. Although 'Magic' at Ford reckons it barely puts out 200bhp - and it doesn't feel any faster than a modern turbo hatch to be honest - it handles beautifully, with fairly light controls and a great sense of balance. It can still be hard work, and the clutch is a pain in traffic, but the drive added to the thrill of being in a genuine RS200 makes it one of the most satisfying cars I've driven.

AT
Editor

Edited by adam towler on Monday 25th June 10:35

I stand corrected - I apologise.

The example I drove I found a real handful, but unlike a large proportion of PH I do not claim to be a driving God. As a mere mortal I found it heavy, clunky and agricultural... but one hell of an experience.

I have also been fortunate enough to be a passenger in a rally spec variant, driven by a certain Welsh bus driver (and an Escort Cosworth, and RS2000 "kit car&quot, which quite simply was brutal... but watching a pro saw away at the wheel was something to behold.

Wow - that must have been awesome sitting next to Gwyndaf...

My favourite Evans image is of him somewhere way north of the limit in that pink whale tail Cossie 'Mr Tomkinson' carpets or whatever it was called. Awesome. Makes you wish you had a time machine...

I think the main thing you come away with from a drive in an RS200 is a feeling of respect for those that drove them in anger. Even as a road car, you can't even begin to compare it to a Scooby or Evo. It's such a physical car, and one where it's the driver who NEEDS to make the difference and have the right blend of skills and frankly, courage. Even if you let your concentration drift for a moment you end up cocking up a gear change or doing something clumsily.

Something else that comes to mind, is that amongst a certain section of society, I've known little that could match an RS200 for attention on the road - not even a weird-green LP640. I remember driving the press RS200 in SW London and a car full of lads in an Impreza drawing alongside. I genuinely though they were going to crash as the driver wasn't making any attempt to look at the road. They just couldn't believe it was an RS200 and seemed almost as excited as I was. That's one of the nice things about the car - not only did I love the overall experience of it - and never, ever, ever wanted to give it back! - but other car nuts got real enjoyment from seeing it to. Great stuff...

AT
Editor

Gwyndaf was a really nice bloke, very unassuming... I remember watching the bollards skim the paint off the mirrors as we went round Boreham. I recall thinking that if he wasn't driving Group A cars, then what the hell was it like with someone like Carlos Sainz at the wheel.

The heat was the thing that surprised me at the time... I expected the acceleration and braking forces, but not the temperature. I got a lift back to the offices with him later that day - in a Scorpio - and you couldn't feel the fact he was changing gear.

Still got his autograph somewhere

[JonRB]

Podie said:

unclemark123 said:

about 52k in standard 250 bhp trim...i think..... so not a good long term investment!

That was the list price for a road spec car... a bit like the original Ford GT, the struggled to sell so they went for peanuts.

I remember my dad test driving a Sierra Saphire Cosworth in the late 80's and there was an RS200 in the showroom with a sticker of around £50k. I seem to recall that the Cosworth was around £20k, so it wasn't peanuts although undoubtedly a bargain considering what it was.

I drove past Fernies on the way down to Goodwood FOS and the RS200 in question looks as fantastic as they always do. In fact the RS200, Stratos and 6R4 are my all-time favourite rally refugees.

Slightly off topic, but I have a copy of CAR magazine from 1988 (I think it was) that has a Countach Evo prototype, Ferrari 288GTO, Aston Martin Zagato and Porsche 959 on the front under the heading "There will never be another month like this". Towards the back was an article on a chap who had bought up the last 20 or so Metro 6R4s after Group B being banned had rendered them effectively unwanted, converted them to road use, and was selling them for around £25k a go - that's got to be a bargain even adjusting for inflation. I wonder if there are any left and how much they go for?

[Caddyshack]

Lol, just found this old thread....people thought £70k was too much back then for an Evo RS200, I wonder if even £170k would get even close today...

[tfin]

Caddyshack said:

Lol, just found this old thread....people thought £70k was too much back then for an Evo RS200, I wonder if even £170k would get even close today...

Crazy isn't it?

this ones up for just shy of £200k.
http://www.ronhodgson.co.uk/ford-rs200-in-lancashi...

...madness.

[Caddyshack]

tfin said:

Crazy isn't it?

this ones up for just shy of £200k.
http://www.ronhodgson.co.uk/ford-rs200-in-lancashi...

...madness.

Blimey.....can you still buy Deloreans and flux capacitors on eBay...I have an idea!