Focus TDCi cold starting continued....

[mekondelta]

My 1.8 TDCi Focus (100PS) has been playing up all winter when starting from cold.

Starter motor has been changed and glow plugs. Ford have looked at it and thought it was glow plugs. Situation has improved but not perfect yet.

Problem is I have to crank the engine for about 5-10 seconds on full throttle before the engine fires and stays alive. During this time the engine will fire then die about 3 or 4 times before finally starting.

The Ford guy said that once when they were testing with diagnostics they got an error code from the cam position sensor but I've got no other information on what it could be.

The CPS is about 80 quid fitted I believe. Is it worth doing? Anyone got any other suggestions. The glow plugs are non-Ford parts as Ford had a 2 week wait before the parts would arrive...

Any help appreciated. Chris.

[J.J.McClure]

Hi
Does your car rattle at tickover? And does it go quite if you put in gear and allow the clutch to drag ? If it does its your flywheel,they are a dual mass flywheel and the rubber goes soft and allows the engine to kick back slightly on cranking,which causes the starting problem. Don't worry because nice Mr ford only wants £430 +vat for a new one! ! ! !
They changed them after 2004 to a better one,but no recall !
This is my first time on pistonheads,sory to bring such happy news

[NST]

J.J.McClure said:

Hi
Does your car rattle at tickover? And does it go quite if you put in gear and allow the clutch to drag ? If it does its your flywheel,they are a dual mass flywheel and the rubber goes soft and allows the engine to kick back slightly on cranking,which causes the starting problem. Don't worry because nice Mr ford only wants £430 +vat for a new one! ! ! !
They changed them after 2004 to a better one,but no recall !
This is my first time on pistonheads,sory to bring such happy news

I was just going to post a thread regarding a rattle at tick over when started from cold which has only started recently.. it doesn't occur all the time though, and disappears after 5 sec or so. Looks like i might need a flywheel as well.

just has aux belts done a few weeks ago and i was just waiting for the next thing to go wrong and just before i though everything was ok i start getting a rattle at start up. i also think the thermostat is on the way out as well. my TDCI is getting rather expensive to run after 60K and 3 years old.

[mekondelta]

J.J.McClure said:

This is my first time on pistonheads,sory to bring such happy news

I'm happy to report my car doesn't do this. I think I might just get the CPS done and hope for the best!

[Zad]

I'm surprised the tech droids can't just put an oscilloscope on the cam sensor and watch the signal that comes off it! You'd think for the hourly rate they charge that they would have some decent diagnostic skills.

Mate of mine just got rid of his 1.8 TDCi back to the Ford after 7 months of them failing to find any faults. He finally got out of it when it turned out the garage hadn't actually done an oil change for 22,000 miles but had billed him for it!

[DJ_AS]

Zad said:

I'm surprised the tech droids can't just put an oscilloscope on the cam sensor and watch the signal that comes off it!

Do you reckon that the tech droids would know what an oscilloscope actually is?!

I do wonder if many 'real' mechanics exist any more or whether the techies are all just fitters.

To the OP: my Mondeo has a hidden 'diagnostics' mode on the dash which will display the error codes. IIRC on the Mondy you hold down the trip meter reset button as you switch the ignition on. You can then cycle through the different modes (inc. error reporting) by pressing the tripmeter reset button. Or something like that.

May be worth looking into. Of course, you'd also have to find a list of the error codes from somewhere!

[mekondelta]

DJ_AS said:

To the OP: my Mondeo has a hidden 'diagnostics' mode on the dash which will display the error codes. IIRC on the Mondy you hold down the trip meter reset button as you switch the ignition on. You can then cycle through the different modes (inc. error reporting) by pressing the tripmeter reset button. Or something like that.

May be worth looking into. Of course, you'd also have to find a list of the error codes from somewhere!

Didn't work for me. It just reset the trip meter... :-(

[DJ_AS]

mekondelta said:

DJ_AS said:

To the OP: my Mondeo has a hidden 'diagnostics' mode on the dash which will display the error codes. IIRC on the Mondy you hold down the trip meter reset button as you switch the ignition on. You can then cycle through the different modes (inc. error reporting) by pressing the tripmeter reset button. Or something like that.

May be worth looking into. Of course, you'd also have to find a list of the error codes from somewhere!

Didn't work for me. It just reset the trip meter... :-(

Hmmm.. just noticed in your original post that you've got a 1.8 TDCi. Is that the new Mondeo? I was talking about my Mk3!

[paul38]

Haven't tried this personally but saved it for future reference -

The Self Diagnostics Mode gives you in-depth information about your
engine and the actual numbers in digital. To use it, follow the steps:



Insert Key but do not turn it on

Press and hold the Trip Meter Reset Button

While holding the reset button, start your car and continue
holding the button

Within 10 seconds, the display should change to "test" in LCD font
and the needles will do a full sweeping. Release the Button


Pressing the button will now cycle through some 17 different modes



Shows a Gauge Sweep

Shows all 8's on the LCD (LCD TEST)

Illuminates all the bulbs on the dash

Displays hexadecimal value for ROM level

Displays the hexadecimal value for EE level

Shows DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Code)

Digital Speedometer - MPH

Digital Speedometer - KPH

Digital tachometer - RPM

Fuel volume

Engine coolant temperature

Battery voltage

ABS fail

Electronic brake distribution (EBD) failure

Illumination

Crank Sense


The following table shows DTC descriptions. As mentioned before, the codes mean very little. Before tests are run, there's lots of steps that need to be taken. If you suspect something is wrong, have your computer scanned with an OBD-II scanner. Many auto parts stores do this for free. Dealers usually charge for this.

9202 Fuel sender open circuit
9204 Fuel sender short to ground
9213 Anti-theft number of programmed keys is below minimum
A103 Antenna not connected-defective transceiver
9232 Antenna not connected-defective transceiver
9317 Battery Voltage high
9318 Battery voltage low
9342 ECU is defective
9356 Ignition run circuit open
9364 Ignition Start circuit open
9600 PATS Ignition Key Transponder Signal is Not Received - Damaged Key or non-PATSKey
9601 PATSReceived Incorrect Key-Code from Ignition Key Transponder (unprogrammed Encoded Ignition Key)
9602 PATS Received Invalid Format of Key-Code From Ignition Key Transponder (Partial Key Code)
9681 PATSTranceiver Signal is Not Received (Not Connected, Damaged, or Wiring)
A139 PCM ID does not match between Instrument Cluster and PCM
A141 NVM Configuration Failure (No PCM ID exchange between Instrument Cluster and PCM)
A143 NVM memory failure
5284 Oil Pressure Switch Failure
D027 SCP Invalid or Missing Data for Engine RPM
D041 SCP Invalid or missing data for Vehicle Speed
D043 SCP Invalid or missing data for Traction Control
D073 SCP Invalid or missing data for engine coolant
D123 SCP Invalid or missing data for Odometer
D147 SCP Invalid or missing data for vehicle security
D262 Missing SCP message

[mekondelta]

Well, the starter motor has gone again. That's 6 months/6000 miles. Great.... starting had got a but easier recently too....

I did run down the amount of diesel in the tank to almost nothing so maybe the fuel filter needs changing? Am going to try that as well as a new starter motor.

Any other ideas? How can the DMF be tested to see if it is that. I can't replicate the symptoms from the previous poster.

[mekondelta]

Just a quick question, what is the difference between a starter motor new from ebay with 1yr warranty for 50quid and one from a main stealer for 200quid?

Are they easy to fit yourself?

[paul38]

Say nothing except stealers doing what they do best and overcharging.

my own cars booked in for a service tomorrow - 2nd service £155. Just checked with rapidfit and same job £105. Phoned main dealer back and just like that droped price to £125

[andy_quantum]

The ebay starter motors are more likely recon ones packed up to look new. Theres nothing wrong with having a recon starter, I got one on my Mondeo at the same time as the DMF and clutch but you might want to check you're not getting the knackered parts bin ones that Ford have taken off and skipped, and it has actually been recon'd.

As to the original problem, I dont think thats a DMF related problem, although turning over for that long isnt going to help the flywheel. I think I remember reading that the throttle isnt used until the car reaches target idle anyway, everything is done from the ECU. So it would make sense to me that it's either a coolant temperature or cam position sensor problem.

Either way, it's not the sort of thing I'd think about doing some time in the future, if it's rattling the DMF you'll end up with a bill of 4 figures

Edit. Idle pulley??

Edited by andy_quantum on Friday 7th March 18:59

[mekondelta]

andy_quantum said:

The ebay starter motors are more likely recon ones packed up to look new. Theres nothing wrong with having a recon starter, I got one on my Mondeo at the same time as the DMF and clutch but you might want to check you're not getting the knackered parts bin ones that Ford have taken off and skipped, and it has actually been recon'd.

Thanks Andy, this is the one I was looking at ebay item

andy_quantum said:

As to the original problem, I dont think thats a DMF related problem, although turning over for that long isnt going to help the flywheel. I think I remember reading that the throttle isnt used until the car reaches target idle anyway, everything is done from the ECU. So it would make sense to me that it's either a coolant temperature or cam position sensor problem.

Either way, it's not the sort of thing I'd think about doing some time in the future, if it's rattling the DMF you'll end up with a bill of 4 figures

Edit. Idle pulley??

The car has been starting OK for the last 4 days on the button. I'm starting to think it was because I was running low on fuel and ran it down too far. I'm just really confused about the whole thing. When the Ford dealer had the car in, they saw a Cam Position Sensor error appear once otherwise couldn't find anything wrong. That hasn't been changed yet but I don't know what to change right now as at this very minute I have a working car. Argh!

[wibley]

This may help. I had the same problem over the winter 2003 Focus TDCI 115 after changing the glow plugs it started fine and then cut out. So I cleaned the cam position sensor which when you remove the plastic cover is on top the cam cover and then went round spraying wd40 on every connector i could fine and it hasnt happened since. Ive been told of people having the fuel pump changed only to discover its the cam sensor.

[mekondelta]

wibley said:

This may help. I had the same problem over the winter 2003 Focus TDCI 115 after changing the glow plugs it started fine and then cut out. So I cleaned the cam position sensor which when you remove the plastic cover is on top the cam cover and then went round spraying wd40 on every connector i could fine and it hasnt happened since. Ive been told of people having the fuel pump changed only to discover its the cam sensor.

Excellent! I'll give this a try. Thank you.

[mekondelta]

Right so the starter motor has been replaced as it just refused to start more and more often. Did it myself, 90 quid from ebay for the part. Pretty easy to do.

I found some metal shavings in the starter motor itself, probably about 5 of them 3-4mm long.

Does this mean the dreaded dual mass flywheel problem is imminent?

[andynoquantum]

The shavings are likely to be from the flywheel, so it's coming, just a question of when.

Your starting problem might be unrelated though. Has someone mentioned the CAS yet?