Fiesta starting problems
Discussion
95 Fiesta 1.1 CFi
(Central Fuel Injection)
Spent the day trying to fix my cousins Fiesta for him. Can anyone help?
It wouldnt start. But turned over OK.
- Battery and starting system fine.
- Spark is good and plugs are new but a bit black (running rich perhaps or maybe just due to him trying to start it).
- Air filter is OK, no probs with in take and all vacumm pipes appear to be connected correctly.
I believe problem to be fuel and disconnected line to ensure fuel pump/filter not blocked. It wasnt.
I have now managed to start the car but the way I did it was very strange.
I was about to remove the injector to ensure it wasnt blocked and so set about de-pressuring the
fuel system. To do this I pulled the fuel pump fuse and turned the ignition key to empty the fuel in the line via the engine.
To my amazement the car started and the engine ran until the fuel line was empty.
I replaced the fuse and turned the key again and it started straight up!
I stopped it almost immediately and waited for a few mins. Then tried to start it again but no joy.
Pulled fuse and it started good and died when fuel ran out. Replaced fuse and it started and ran fine.
Couldn’t repeat this any time after as it now just seems to start up fine each time (fault cleared or engine warmed up enough). Longest it was left off for was 30 mins and it still started fine after that.
I have a feeling that the non starting fault will come along again. Does anyone have any ideas what it could be?
I have heard that the CFi CVH engine can have starting problems and wondered if there was a common fault.
Thanks for any advice.
(Central Fuel Injection)
Spent the day trying to fix my cousins Fiesta for him. Can anyone help?
It wouldnt start. But turned over OK.
- Battery and starting system fine.
- Spark is good and plugs are new but a bit black (running rich perhaps or maybe just due to him trying to start it).
- Air filter is OK, no probs with in take and all vacumm pipes appear to be connected correctly.
I believe problem to be fuel and disconnected line to ensure fuel pump/filter not blocked. It wasnt.
I have now managed to start the car but the way I did it was very strange.
I was about to remove the injector to ensure it wasnt blocked and so set about de-pressuring the
fuel system. To do this I pulled the fuel pump fuse and turned the ignition key to empty the fuel in the line via the engine.
To my amazement the car started and the engine ran until the fuel line was empty.
I replaced the fuse and turned the key again and it started straight up!
I stopped it almost immediately and waited for a few mins. Then tried to start it again but no joy.
Pulled fuse and it started good and died when fuel ran out. Replaced fuse and it started and ran fine.
Couldn’t repeat this any time after as it now just seems to start up fine each time (fault cleared or engine warmed up enough). Longest it was left off for was 30 mins and it still started fine after that.
I have a feeling that the non starting fault will come along again. Does anyone have any ideas what it could be?
I have heard that the CFi CVH engine can have starting problems and wondered if there was a common fault.
Thanks for any advice.
dusty a friend at work had similar trouble. After a 12 hour shift he went out and it wouldnt start in a very similar manner as you discribed.
After 2 hours of taking out spark plugs and charging the battery he finaly gave in and called the AA.
AA man came looked at the car and said he new what it was. Sure enough he opened the bonet removed a pipe from the intake manifold and it started first time.
According to him it was flooded and that is the only way to start it.
Can't tell you what pipe it was but the AA man said it was a quirk of Fiesta's
After 2 hours of taking out spark plugs and charging the battery he finaly gave in and called the AA.
AA man came looked at the car and said he new what it was. Sure enough he opened the bonet removed a pipe from the intake manifold and it started first time.
According to him it was flooded and that is the only way to start it.
Can't tell you what pipe it was but the AA man said it was a quirk of Fiesta's
Fiesta's and CFi are well known for cold start concerns.
(the 1.1 cfi isn't a CVH engine, it's the old kent/valencia/HCS/endura engine )
FMC released various TSB's to address the situation.
One of the most common concerns was an incorrect signal from the Engine coolant temp sensor. two ways it could be solved, either replace the sensor and hope it was just that, or replace the PCM as it sometimes incorrectly interprited the signal. (can be fixed with a 10Kohm resistor if you know where to put it
)
other concerns ranged from DC motor failure and throttle switch problems.
as yours is having trouble with the cold start, i'd look at the ECT situation as it forms part of the equation for cold fuelling as well as playing a major part of closed loop operation.
feel free to mail me with vehicle details, and i'll see if I can get you some info off TIS
regards
nighthawk
>> Edited by nighthawkEP3 on Monday 1st March 21:35
(the 1.1 cfi isn't a CVH engine, it's the old kent/valencia/HCS/endura engine )
FMC released various TSB's to address the situation.
One of the most common concerns was an incorrect signal from the Engine coolant temp sensor. two ways it could be solved, either replace the sensor and hope it was just that, or replace the PCM as it sometimes incorrectly interprited the signal. (can be fixed with a 10Kohm resistor if you know where to put it
) other concerns ranged from DC motor failure and throttle switch problems.
as yours is having trouble with the cold start, i'd look at the ECT situation as it forms part of the equation for cold fuelling as well as playing a major part of closed loop operation.
feel free to mail me with vehicle details, and i'll see if I can get you some info off TIS
regards
nighthawk
>> Edited by nighthawkEP3 on Monday 1st March 21:35
Firstly, thanks!
I get my engine names muddled. Is CVH the one witht he curvy cam cover as on the XR3i then? I think it is. Anyway, that isnt this engine. I think CVH starts at 1.4 anyway!
If the DC motor you talk of is the throttle plate positioning motor then I know that works fine as I have tested it and watched it work in cold and warm conditions (warm start).
From what I have seen so far I think you may be on the right tracks with the Engine coolant temp sensor fault. I assume this is a resistive temperature sensor and so putting a resistor in series with it will trick it into thinking the engine is wamrer?
10K ohm seems like a lot if this is the case though.
The car is running OK at the present but since I didnt find the actual fault I have a feeling it will happen again. I have told my cousin to let me know if it does. For now I have shown him how to get around the problem to start it in the future.
What is TIS?
Thanks for you help. This is more of an interest for me than a desperate cry for help since the car is now running. Would like to solve the problem though.
I get my engine names muddled. Is CVH the one witht he curvy cam cover as on the XR3i then? I think it is. Anyway, that isnt this engine. I think CVH starts at 1.4 anyway!
If the DC motor you talk of is the throttle plate positioning motor then I know that works fine as I have tested it and watched it work in cold and warm conditions (warm start).
From what I have seen so far I think you may be on the right tracks with the Engine coolant temp sensor fault. I assume this is a resistive temperature sensor and so putting a resistor in series with it will trick it into thinking the engine is wamrer?
10K ohm seems like a lot if this is the case though.
The car is running OK at the present but since I didnt find the actual fault I have a feeling it will happen again. I have told my cousin to let me know if it does. For now I have shown him how to get around the problem to start it in the future.
What is TIS?
Thanks for you help. This is more of an interest for me than a desperate cry for help since the car is now running. Would like to solve the problem though.
As you rightly guessed the CVh was the engine used in the XR3i and so on.
It has actually been created in 1.1/1.3/1.4/1.6 and in a slightly different form the 1.8 over the years
Later versions of the 1.4 were renamed as PTE with a black cam cover.
but back on topic
The sensor is indeed a Negertive Temperture coefficent type sensor which means that the resistance changes inversely with respect to temperature.
for guidence the range of the ECT is
engine coolant at -40 degrees C would give approx 880Kohms with a votage signal of 4.53V.
0 degrees should see 95Kohms at 3.87 V
120 degrees should see 1.2Kohms at 0.25 v
with a vast range between,
an rough guide to it in normal terms is around
water temp on cold day about 10 degrees with a resistance of 66Kohms and an output voltage of 3.55v
fit the resistor in parallel and it'll give a false reading to the PCM.
TIS is the Technical Information System.
The pipe others have refered to is the engine breather. it's often neglected at service. for a few quid you should fit a new one (looks like popeye's pipe) and also the replace the little orange membrane on the other side (inside the aircleaner)
Hope it helped
It has actually been created in 1.1/1.3/1.4/1.6 and in a slightly different form the 1.8 over the years
Later versions of the 1.4 were renamed as PTE with a black cam cover.
but back on topic
The sensor is indeed a Negertive Temperture coefficent type sensor which means that the resistance changes inversely with respect to temperature.
for guidence the range of the ECT is
engine coolant at -40 degrees C would give approx 880Kohms with a votage signal of 4.53V.
0 degrees should see 95Kohms at 3.87 V
120 degrees should see 1.2Kohms at 0.25 v
with a vast range between,
an rough guide to it in normal terms is around
water temp on cold day about 10 degrees with a resistance of 66Kohms and an output voltage of 3.55v
fit the resistor in parallel and it'll give a false reading to the PCM.
TIS is the Technical Information System.
The pipe others have refered to is the engine breather. it's often neglected at service. for a few quid you should fit a new one (looks like popeye's pipe) and also the replace the little orange membrane on the other side (inside the aircleaner)
Hope it helped
nighthawkEP3 said:
Hope it helped
Helped? Thats incredibly good information!
nighthawkEP3 said:
The pipe others have refered to is the engine breather. it's often neglected at service. for a few quid you should fit a new one (looks like popeye's pipe) and also the replace the little orange membrane on the other side (inside the aircleaner)
Now we are getting somewhere.
I notice this orange membrane looked a tad tatty and that it wasnt doing its proper job. It also emitted a fine atomised spray upon finally starting the engine. I dont know if this is the result of me giving it a bit of a squirt and clean though.
I also noticed that the underside of the air filter cover had dried oil on it. Quite a lot too. I noticed this had come from the breather pipe.
Could this be a sign that my cousin has perhaps once over filled his oil? I did check the oil level before starting and it was fine.
By the way I know the cars history. It has 34K miles and was previously owned by my mother-in-law and did about 2-3K a year, never in fifth and never on the motorway!
My girlfriend has had it for the past year. When she first got it I borrowed it to "clear the cobwebs".
It was fine apart from a couple of months ago when we left it out in the rain for a month and it didnt want to start. I eventually got it going and it was fine again for the next couple of weeks until I sold it to my cousin. Was fine to start with but no the problems I talk of.
I will tell him to get the orange membrane changed and also get him to check if the pipe needs replacing and tell me about any other starting problems. If there are any more I'll go for the resistance trick.
Infact I'll send him a link to this thread, that seems even easier!
Thanks for all your help. You certainly have a lot of knowledge on this, is it your living by any chance?
Hehehehe My living? some people who know me might say the oval is my existence 
Oil deposits on the lower face of the air cleaner lid are normal, caused by the condensation of crank case gasses. Shouldn't be cause for alarm unless you have lots and lots of gunk up there.
Below that orange membrane is popeye's pipe. it has 2 pipes onto it from the crankcase ventilation system. the smaller of the 2 has a 1.5mm bore in the plastic section which becomes blocked with the afore mentioned sludge/gunk. it's a calibrated hole which allows air oil contaminated air into the inlet tract BELOW the throttle plate. if the air can't get in your running rich. replacing these bits is also cheaper and safer than jumping in with maplin's finest and a soldering iron
The 10k resistor is NOT and official FMC fix, as the TSB requests the change of the EEC IV PCM (about £400 to you). it is something however I've cured friends cars with it they are suffering from cold start fuelling issues.
>> Edited by nighthawkEP3 on Tuesday 2nd March 22:55
Oil deposits on the lower face of the air cleaner lid are normal, caused by the condensation of crank case gasses. Shouldn't be cause for alarm unless you have lots and lots of gunk up there.
Below that orange membrane is popeye's pipe. it has 2 pipes onto it from the crankcase ventilation system. the smaller of the 2 has a 1.5mm bore in the plastic section which becomes blocked with the afore mentioned sludge/gunk. it's a calibrated hole which allows air oil contaminated air into the inlet tract BELOW the throttle plate. if the air can't get in your running rich. replacing these bits is also cheaper and safer than jumping in with maplin's finest and a soldering iron
The 10k resistor is NOT and official FMC fix, as the TSB requests the change of the EEC IV PCM (about £400 to you). it is something however I've cured friends cars with it they are suffering from cold start fuelling issues.
>> Edited by nighthawkEP3 on Tuesday 2nd March 22:55
Perhaps you should change your name to blue oval.
Then again, night hawk appears to be very apt!
I think I mentioned in an earier post that the new spark plugs were black, a sign of richness (unfortuantely not the £ or $ sign of richness though!). This would suggest to me that the said popeye pipe requires replacing.
Im trying to think of a popeye joke or song to insert here but its far too early for my brain.
toot-toot!
Thanks for all your help nighthawk. I look forward to catching up with your post each morning!
Then again, night hawk appears to be very apt!
I think I mentioned in an earier post that the new spark plugs were black, a sign of richness (unfortuantely not the £ or $ sign of richness though!). This would suggest to me that the said popeye pipe requires replacing.
Im trying to think of a popeye joke or song to insert here but its far too early for my brain.
toot-toot!
Thanks for all your help nighthawk. I look forward to catching up with your post each morning!
Actually there is another couple of questions. Feel free to ignore these if you want. Just testing the limits to your vast knowledge source!
Is it true that the ECU creates fueling according to the driving style and it should be reset?
I can understand this technology on big german barges but surely not on this little CFi.
Also do you know what size wheels are fitted to the Fiesta? I have a stack of XR3i wheels in the garage which ar 14X6J that I'll give to my cousin if the clearance is OK. I believe they will be alright with the correct profile tyre, think a 50 should do it.
Is it true that the ECU creates fueling according to the driving style and it should be reset?
I can understand this technology on big german barges but surely not on this little CFi.
Also do you know what size wheels are fitted to the Fiesta? I have a stack of XR3i wheels in the garage which ar 14X6J that I'll give to my cousin if the clearance is OK. I believe they will be alright with the correct profile tyre, think a 50 should do it.
The CFi system fitted to the fiesta was made by Weber, you'd be better off thinking of it as an electronic carb really, with full closed loop fuel control.
By closed loop i mean that, as soon as a pre determined coolant temp is reached the engines brain (PCM) runs the show. It takes readings from various sensors and outputs signals to various actuators and decides how long the Centrally mounted fuel injector stays open for while giving the spark at the correct time.
But on a cold start the fuelling is whats termed open loop, where by the Cat is too cold to do it's stuff and the HO2S (---hego---lambda) can't decide if on the oxygen content in the exhaust stream amongst other things, so the PCM runs from set parameters on a 3 way map.
It is very complex even for a lowly festa
So, here comes the importance of the coolant temp reading at cold start
engine rpm + load + coolant temp = injector pulse width length
As for wheels/tyres
the 1.1 hcs engined cars had a choice
155/70r13 or 165/65r13 or 175/60r13 and even 165/60r14
The 14" from the escort will fit, infact i've seen loads of 89-> shape festas with XR3i doglegs and cos style lattice wheels.
Re my user name, nighthawkEP3 is the colour and model of my car, and this the only motoring forum i use it on.
By closed loop i mean that, as soon as a pre determined coolant temp is reached the engines brain (PCM) runs the show. It takes readings from various sensors and outputs signals to various actuators and decides how long the Centrally mounted fuel injector stays open for while giving the spark at the correct time.
But on a cold start the fuelling is whats termed open loop, where by the Cat is too cold to do it's stuff and the HO2S (---hego---lambda) can't decide if on the oxygen content in the exhaust stream amongst other things, so the PCM runs from set parameters on a 3 way map.
It is very complex even for a lowly festa
So, here comes the importance of the coolant temp reading at cold start
engine rpm + load + coolant temp = injector pulse width length
As for wheels/tyres
the 1.1 hcs engined cars had a choice
155/70r13 or 165/65r13 or 175/60r13 and even 165/60r14
The 14" from the escort will fit, infact i've seen loads of 89-> shape festas with XR3i doglegs and cos style lattice wheels.
Re my user name, nighthawkEP3 is the colour and model of my car, and this the only motoring forum i use it on.
Hi,
I read with interest this posting very good and detailed info.
Could I ask a quick question?.
The emmisions system (breather pipes) I have noted that you mention a calibrated hole.
On my Mk3 1992 1.4 CVH CFi Fiesta the pipe comes from the rocker cover to the collector that plugs into the base of the air filter. There is a smaller pipe that goes to the inlet manifold however the outlet on the collector seems to be sealed and not blocked but actually molded so its blocked. Is this correct or is it just seriously blocked ?
I hope that makes sense !!
Thanks
Paul
I read with interest this posting very good and detailed info.
Could I ask a quick question?.
The emmisions system (breather pipes) I have noted that you mention a calibrated hole.
On my Mk3 1992 1.4 CVH CFi Fiesta the pipe comes from the rocker cover to the collector that plugs into the base of the air filter. There is a smaller pipe that goes to the inlet manifold however the outlet on the collector seems to be sealed and not blocked but actually molded so its blocked. Is this correct or is it just seriously blocked ?
I hope that makes sense !!
Thanks
Paul
paul_a_uk said:
The emmisions system (breather pipes) I have noted that you mention a calibrated hole.
On my Mk3 1992 1.4 CVH CFi Fiesta the pipe comes from the rocker cover to the collector that plugs into the base of the air filter. There is a smaller pipe that goes to the inlet manifold however the outlet on the collector seems to be sealed and not blocked but actually molded so its blocked. Is this correct or is it just seriously blocked ?
I hope that makes sense !!
Thanks
Paul
Paul
I got your mail Re this question.
It's been along time since i've played with the old CVH/PTE engine, so i'll have to get back to you tomorrow with the exact size of the hole. The engine you have is different to the one previously talked about.
I seem to recall that part being a service replacement item too, so i'll sort out a part number too.
If it has a pipe on it, it should have a passage through though.
Back to topic Re the question on the 1.4 PTE breather, the part has 3 pipes,
2 of them are of equal size and are at the top of the filter, these are around 12mm diam
the pipe at the bottom is around 6/7 mm
You should be able to hear the check valve inside the filter rattle when shaken and you can blow through all pipes, so blockages mean it's scrap.
Sorry for the delay about that bit......i forgot that part
2 of them are of equal size and are at the top of the filter, these are around 12mm diam
the pipe at the bottom is around 6/7 mm
You should be able to hear the check valve inside the filter rattle when shaken and you can blow through all pipes, so blockages mean it's scrap.
Sorry for the delay about that bit......i forgot that part
nighthawkEP3 said:
Fiesta's and CFi are well known for cold start concerns.
(the 1.1 cfi isn't a CVH engine, it's the old kent/valencia/HCS/endura engine )
FMC released various TSB's to address the situation.
One of the most common concerns was an incorrect signal from the Engine coolant temp sensor. two ways it could be solved, either replace the sensor and hope it was just that, or replace the PCM as it sometimes incorrectly interprited the signal. (can be fixed with a 10Kohm resistor if you know where to put it
other concerns ranged from DC motor failure and throttle switch problems.
as yours is having trouble with the cold start, i'd look at the ECT situation as it forms part of the equation for cold fuelling as well as playing a major part of closed loop operation.
feel free to mail me with vehicle details, and i'll see if I can get you some info off TIS
regards
nighthawk
>> Edited by nighthawkEP3 on Monday 1st March 21:35
Interesting, any more dtails ??
OK guys i realise this post ended some time ago, but after nearly 2 weeks of scouring the net i came across it,
ok heres the problem hopefully it makes sense to someone out there.
Righ the car in question is a 95 M plate fiesta 1.1 cfi.
It wouldnt start a while back because of a flat battery so i charged it up and all went well, the battery went flat a while later (due to not being used for about 3 weeks) so i charged it and got the car started, thought i would take it a run to charge up battery fully came in house went back out after about 5 mins and it had cut out, so that was it until today it just wouldnt start, it turns over but nothing happening, good spark but plugs are dry????
After looking at this post thought i would check out the injector took it out and it was clean so put it back in checked all the breather pipes etc and all looks fine, tried starting it and it fired up first time, turned it off and restarted all going great (you all keeping up here)
Right so leave it going for a few mins turn off and im back to square one, turns over plugs dry, good spark not much else to say,
Please some one help out here,
Eagerly awaiting a response,
Big Elvis.
ok heres the problem hopefully it makes sense to someone out there.
Righ the car in question is a 95 M plate fiesta 1.1 cfi.
It wouldnt start a while back because of a flat battery so i charged it up and all went well, the battery went flat a while later (due to not being used for about 3 weeks) so i charged it and got the car started, thought i would take it a run to charge up battery fully came in house went back out after about 5 mins and it had cut out, so that was it until today it just wouldnt start, it turns over but nothing happening, good spark but plugs are dry????
After looking at this post thought i would check out the injector took it out and it was clean so put it back in checked all the breather pipes etc and all looks fine, tried starting it and it fired up first time, turned it off and restarted all going great (you all keeping up here)
Right so leave it going for a few mins turn off and im back to square one, turns over plugs dry, good spark not much else to say,
Please some one help out here,
Eagerly awaiting a response,
Big Elvis.
I am having the exact same problems mentioned above. Occasionally the car just cuts out and is a bu@@er to re-start. Leave it to go cold and it all seems fine. Just can't trust it now though. I have a 1.1 HCS N reg (1996) car.
Has this problem been solved or are there any suggestions. I am about to check the resistance of the Coolant temp sensor as the problem only seems to be when the engine is hot.
Has this problem been solved or are there any suggestions. I am about to check the resistance of the Coolant temp sensor as the problem only seems to be when the engine is hot.
Hi, i have a Fiesta Zetec 1.4 TDCI, recently i had one of the injection seals replaced, since then the car has been struggling to start. Turns over twice and then stops turning over. The garage have said it could be the ignition, however once the car is warm, no problems, jsut when she's cold. Especially now its snowing. ANy idea's
Thanks
Guy
Thanks
Guy
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