New TVR Tuscan Price
Discussion
kz1 said:
TVR's are great at what they do, providing a relatively cheap entry into sportscar ownership, they are not bluechip investments, nor are they worth 100k, whether new or re engineered.
+1I am amazed people take anything like this seriously, the day the factory closed the TVR story was over.
kz1 said:
I know that once you've owned a TVR they tend to get under your skin, well if you are of a certain persuation anyway. But they are not in anyway comprable to a modern porsche 911.
And thank God for that. Apples, oranges. Non-GT/RS 911s are just posh dailies as far as I'm concerned. You'd as well compare a TVR to a Mercedes...Most of us here have had or driven the modern high tech stuff and found them soulless and boring unless drving like the sort of folks none of us would want to meet on the public road. We tend to think of TVRs as classic sports cars but with performance, grip, handling (of sorts) and brakes... Eagle E-types comparison makes much more sense in that regard.
Ribol said:
kz1 said:
TVR's are great at what they do, providing a relatively cheap entry into sportscar ownership, they are not bluechip investments, nor are they worth 100k, whether new or re engineered.
+1I am amazed people take anything like this seriously, the day the factory closed the TVR story was over.
Not particularly impressed with the old guard claiming TVR as their own and denying everyone after them the chance to buy a proper, 'analogue' sports car, either...
I recall TVRs being priced at around the prices of say BMW Z3M's (Certainly the 4.5 Chim back in 98/99 time) but well below the price of a 911 (with the top end model at the time, the Cerbera, being a few K more than a Chim but still below the 911?).
A TVR well above the price of a 911 doesnt sit well with me. I dont recall the number of T440 / Typhon orders being up there with TVR's 'cooking' models.
Whilst 911 / TVR are offering a totally different driving and ownership experience I still dont see myself spending £100K on a "new" TVR. A TVR priced just under an entry 911 is where I am used to seeing them pitched. I think that £60 - 65K is more like it. Particularly with the cheaper non-TVR lumps. Whether this is a do-able price point is a different thing IMHO
But I do wish them every success with it - maybe the exchange rate will allow foreign buyers to grab a bargain.
A TVR well above the price of a 911 doesnt sit well with me. I dont recall the number of T440 / Typhon orders being up there with TVR's 'cooking' models.
Whilst 911 / TVR are offering a totally different driving and ownership experience I still dont see myself spending £100K on a "new" TVR. A TVR priced just under an entry 911 is where I am used to seeing them pitched. I think that £60 - 65K is more like it. Particularly with the cheaper non-TVR lumps. Whether this is a do-able price point is a different thing IMHO
But I do wish them every success with it - maybe the exchange rate will allow foreign buyers to grab a bargain.
900T-R said:
Not particularly impressed with the old guard claiming TVR as their own and denying everyone after them the chance to buy a proper, 'analogue' sports car, either...
For me, the issue is that a TVR has a very special heritage, the cars are out and out basic sports cars designed and built in Blackpool.No-one is, I believe, denying others the chance of owning such a car, but if it doesn't meet the above criteria, for me it ain't a TVR. End of.
Gazzab said:
I recall TVRs being priced at around the prices of say BMW Z3M's (Certainly the 4.5 Chim back in 98/99 time) but well below the price of a 911 (with the top end model at the time, the Cerbera, being a few K more than a Chim but still below the 911?).
Indeed, but especially the Cerb and Tuscan were effectively half-finished products. Many of them have developed into the cars they should have been in the first place by their owners, but at significant cost. Heart of the matter is that it's gotten impossible to build and market a purist car to a nearly mainstream audience as TVR did in the 1990s if only from a legislation (but also a market appeal) POV, so even if they nearly gave them away, annual production will always be two digit numbers rather than four.
Comparisons with mass produced cars are IMO now beyond the point. And looking at what else bespoke is out there, I'd say TVR in its proposed new shape is not out of tune with the market developments at all.
Near the beginning of the century you could buy a Morgan Aero 8 at £50K. Now, the Supersports is £129K.
A Noble GTO-3R was £50K in 2003/4. An M600 will set you back £200K.
Classic sports cars and modern re-engineered/'reborn' variants have seen an even steeper curve over the same period - hence an Eagle Speedster on sale for a cool £600K.
Given that the climate towards small, lightweight cars with 6 litre engines that don't feature any electronic nannies and Playstation interfaces isn't likely to improve unless revolution comes and the EU in its current shape ceases to exist, we will be unlikely to see cars like TVRs from manufacturers that have a bit more financial and engineering clout - as with the formerly mentioned I'd think a new TVR would be a relatively depreciation proof purchase, unlike £100K Porsches, Astons et cetera that will become £30K cars in about 5 years.
I'm afraid the envisaged price level is the lowest one can sensibly build and market a hand built, fully trimmed, practical high performance sports car.
Like it or lump it, this is what a car anything like a TVR will cost in today's money. That's also why volumes will probably remain at 12 cars per annum rather than 1,200...
The sole remaining question is whether the new cars will be (re-)engineered and built to a commensurate standard. As long as this is the case I don't see any problem with what is being proposed now.
900T-R said:
<snip> I'm afraid the envisaged price level is the lowest one can sensibly build and market a hand built, fully trimmed, practical high performance sports car.
Like it or lump it, this is what a car anything like a TVR will cost in today's money. That's also why volumes will probably remain at 12 cars per annum rather than 1,200...
The sole remaining question is whether the new cars will be (re-)engineered and built to a commensurate standard. As long as this is the case I don't see any problem with what is being proposed now.
Good post and loads of good points, however, I have to disagree that the £100K is the necessary price point for a quality hand built car, especially one built under the SVA rules (ie not full compliance with the Type Approval regs) I've done quite a bit of research in that area over the last year and a profitable figure can be comfortably in the £80k - £90k zone, maybe even a little less and that's still at the low volumes you refer to.Like it or lump it, this is what a car anything like a TVR will cost in today's money. That's also why volumes will probably remain at 12 cars per annum rather than 1,200...
The sole remaining question is whether the new cars will be (re-)engineered and built to a commensurate standard. As long as this is the case I don't see any problem with what is being proposed now.
Your last paragraph is where I'm sure TVR will fall down. I have no doubt that they will continue to use the spaceframe chassis they have and that's where the big achilles heel lies as it was old tech 20 years ago. The other issue they have is they don't have any of the key production guys who worked on these cars the last time round and I know that the majority of them would rather stick pins in their eyes than work for NS again.
OK, £100K give or take a bit... (incidentally, the figure Dom mentioned last summer was smack in the middle of your bandwidth, but then I didn't ask whether that included VAT... 
) As long as people realise that a £45-50K TVR was never going to happen...
Good point about the spaceframe - Wiessmann went to an aluminium tub (albeit riveted rather than bonded) fairly recently but there's still nowt really against a tubular spaceframe compared to say, a unitary steel construction. TVR themselves have shown the way forwarsd by incorporating structural floors and sills and stiffening the central spine using carbon fibre which I still feel would be the way forward as you don't have to throw away the child with the bath water and start all over again.
) As long as people realise that a £45-50K TVR was never going to happen...Good point about the spaceframe - Wiessmann went to an aluminium tub (albeit riveted rather than bonded) fairly recently but there's still nowt really against a tubular spaceframe compared to say, a unitary steel construction. TVR themselves have shown the way forwarsd by incorporating structural floors and sills and stiffening the central spine using carbon fibre which I still feel would be the way forward as you don't have to throw away the child with the bath water and start all over again.
900T-R said:
TVR themselves have shown the way forwarsd by incorporating structural floors and sills and stiffening the central spine using carbon fibre which I still feel would be the way forward as you don't have to throw away the child with the bath water and start all over again.
Talking to the engineer who designed that gave me an interesting insight as he wanted to use something more advanced but PW wouldn't let him so what turned up was a compromise.There always comes a time when you need to move on, indeed NS said he wanted to draw a line under the PW era so as there's been a gap since the last cars were produced, developing some new ideas of his own would be a good idea and indeed perhaps regain (tough) some of his and the marque's lost credibility.
900T-R said:
Not particularly impressed with the old guard claiming TVR as their own and denying everyone after them the chance to buy a proper, 'analogue' sports car, either...
I doubt if anyone will be too worried about whether you are impressed or not but I don't see any old guard claiming TVR as their own, I see them saying that TVR as they were will never exist again, and they won't.Are these 100K cars being built by people who are...car builders?
Or are they being built by someone who has the ability to service cars with a different engine altogether, rebuild similar type drive trains and has the facilities to undertake repair work and repaint cars?
Do I want to spend my 100K there?
Thinks
Maybe I won't be first on the list.
Or are they being built by someone who has the ability to service cars with a different engine altogether, rebuild similar type drive trains and has the facilities to undertake repair work and repaint cars?
Do I want to spend my 100K there?
Thinks
Maybe I won't be first on the list.
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