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eliot

5,871 posts

138 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Well at least the software guy has shared his research and published his code which is highly commendable.

Alexdaredevilz

5,167 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Blitz I don't run lambda's and it used to start up great

If the AFM is giving the wrong signals/volts or what ever it's still a fault, is it not?

I didn't know I was buying a 14cux 'some faults' reader

shpub said:
No offence but I don't think you actually understand how a fault code reader works. I also seem to remember that I posted that I would look at a special deal but heard nothing....
Your dam right I don't know how it works,

That's why I bought it to try and find the faults, I wasn't aware it would only find some and under special circumstances

The afm problem was some one else's problem, so Im not going to go into that I just want mine starting up nice from cold

I did see your special offer, but there's a part of me that was thinking the more I spend trying to fix this horrible piss poor system(14cux) the closer I would be to replacing the whole thing

So far I've replaced or checked

AFM
HT leads
Spark plugs
Dizzy cap
ECU temp sender sensor
Timing
Compression
Fuses
Battery voltages and amps
Checked all wiring I can think of
3 Stepper motors and I'm 100% sure the current one I got works because I've seen it working on anther car
Air leaks
TPS voltages (fault 17 code did once flash up for 2 mins and then went)
Fuel pressure

I'm sure I've checked more I cant think of at the top of my head

Edited by Alexdaredevilz on Monday 9th April 19:25

Bassfiend

4,635 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Hi Alex,

Both Blitz and shpub are correct - a fault code reader simply queries the ECU fault code table and unless the ECU has actually seen a fault condition occur then there'll be nothing in it to read.

The 14CUX seems to be very difficult to diagnose nowadays as firstly its fault code logging is by current standards rather prehistoric and secondly most garages seem to no longer have the diagnosis tools for these ECUs (and seem to have lost the knowledge that allows them to be intelligent about diagnosing faults - they seem to rely too much nowadays on the computers telling them what's wrong) - I once joked with a friend that the 14CUX had two fault codes - "Something's broken" and "Something might be broken" and that if there wasn't a fault code then it could simply be that the ECU hadn't noticed that something was broken.

If a faulty sensor is reading a value that is within limits then the ECU won't raise a fault code - even though the reading might not be appropriate and might cause bad running the ECU is just a fairly simple logic engine and not a diagnosis tool - that's why garages used to spend thousands on those big ass Sun engine analysers. Modern ECUs are much more able to try to intelligently self diagnose.

I fully understand your pain though - I've been chasing down a fault for the last two years (I've replaced just about every ignition component that's there to replace) and the ECU hasn't ever generated a useful fault code.

I *KNOW* that the system that is fitted can be reliable and if I knew exactly what the fault is with mine (I actually do now think I've located it) and fixed that then I *KNOW* it's a good solid system but - like it seems you're considering - I just took the view that if I replaced the lot with something that was modern and more maintainable then that might be the best solution.

Phil

Edited by Bassfiend on Monday 9th April 20:17

blitzracing

Original Poster:

3,957 posts

104 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Alexdaredevilz said:
Your dam right I don't know how it works,

That's why I bought it to try and find the faults, I wasn't aware it would only find some and under special circumstances

The afm problem was some one else's problem, so Im not going to go into that I just want mine starting up nice from cold

I did see your special offer, but there's a part of me that was thinking the more I spend trying to fix this horrible piss poor system(14cux) the closer I would be to replacing the whole thing

So far I've replaced or checked

AFM
HT leads
Spark plugs
Dizzy cap
ECU temp sender sensor
Timing
Compression
Fuses
Battery voltages and amps
Checked all wiring I can think of
3 Stepper motors and I'm 100% sure the current one I got works because I've seen it working on anther car
Air leaks
TPS voltages (fault 17 code did once flash up for 2 mins and then went)
Fuel pressure

I'm sure I've checked more I cant think of at the top of my head

Edited by Alexdaredevilz on Monday 9th April 19:25
So you have changed all this without actually what is going on then? You have assumed that a sensor input has failed in some way or ignition component, but what you really need to find out is why the mixture or ignition is wrong. Even something as basic as a colour tune would show you a highly over rich or lean mixture, or if you have the lambdas still fitted you can still use the voltage outputs whatever map you are running. If you want to take readings from stone cold you will need to preheat the probes with a separate 12 volts to the heaters. Although the mixture is richened for cold start, a lot of this is due to fuel condensing on the inlet tract and never reaching the combustion process. Once it gets as far as igniting you can still run Lambda one as far as the exhaust oxygen is concerned, so the ECU will pull the mixture back to this as soon as it gets a reading (Catalyst map obviously-). How has your CO trim been set up? Its perfectly possible to horribly overfuel or underfuel the engine if this is out at below 2200 rpm or so. Mine runs fine on a Mark Adams chip on the non cat map when cold, although it still runs a tad rich as far as lambda 1 is concerned, but it drives OK.

Alexdaredevilz

5,167 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
I set the C0 trim as per MA

So far iv used a MA chip, 4.6 ecu and now a 5.0
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blitzracing

Original Poster:

3,957 posts

104 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Alexdaredevilz said:
I set the C0 trim as per MA

So far iv used a MA chip, 4.6 ecu and now a 5.0
The DC voltages are a basic set up only, Id beg or borrow a colour tune and try altering the CO trim setting, first when warm to ensure you can actually swing the mixture rich or lean (thats bright yellow burn for rich, pale blue for lean) What you want is darkish blue, with the odd flecks of yellow. (If the 5 volt feed to the CO trim is broken you wont be able to do this). If this works, then try it cold, and see how it affects the running. You need the right MA chip for the engine capacity to get the airflow scaling correct.

Alexdaredevilz

5,167 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Let's ignore all 14cux nonsense for a min

My common sense is telling me it's miss firing when cold at low rpm and feels/smells rich

So to me that would be a ignition problem?

Don't forget I'm running a large cam

And it's 110% perfect when warm

Any suggestions before bin the system?

I'm really not in the mood to go round the whole system checking and replacing every thing again

Bassfiend

4,635 posts

134 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
...or severe overfuelling at tickover / when cold?

Mine p*sses so much fuel in when it's starting from cold that it floods very easily and absolutely stinks of fuel - so much so that an ex-girlfriend used to ask me to park in the street rather than in the driveway as it smelled so badly of fuel on startup from cold.

Phil

Alexdaredevilz

5,167 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 9th April 2012 quote quote all
Second that, mine leaves two great big black splats of fuel on the white garage on start up

Bluebottle

3,086 posts

124 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
Alexdaredevilz said:
I set the C0 trim as per MA

So far iv used a MA chip, 4.6 ecu and now a 5.0
Would I be correct in saying that have tried 3 different chips non of which mapped for your engine ?
If so, then why haven't u taken the ma chip to ma and got him to sort your car instead of randomly replacing perfectly goods parts in the hopes of stumbling on what, you do not know. From the sounds if it you've spent well in excess of what it would cost to have mark fix your isue.

900T-R

19,338 posts

141 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
OK Alex,

The 'horrible'14 CUX works like any other modern EFI-system. It only throws a fault code when a sensor strikes or gives an output beyond the range the ECU expects. That's why SH's ECU reader is such a fine thing, as it doesn't just give the fault codes but reads sensor output voltages etc.

It's down to the person diagnosing a running problem to say "Hang on, I've just started a cold engine and the coolant temp sensor gives a reading of 90 degrees C. That's not right."

This is the same for ANY engine management system and ANY diagnostic tester. If you're waiting for an engine management system and diagnostic tester to just say: change this and that component, you'll be waiting a long time.

Diagnostic tools are an aid, not a substitute for logic and system knowledge.

Bassfiend

4,635 posts

134 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
Alexdaredevilz said:
Second that, mine leaves two great big black splats of fuel on the white garage on start up
That's generally (and please, anyone else correct me if I'm wrong) just "soot" from the inside of the exhaust and cold start enrichment being blown out along with water vapour from the cold exhaust and dropping on the floor ... but it does sound like it's running very rich at startup (not just cold) which mine seems to do too.

Blitz very kindly let me pop round to his one day and he spent a couple of hours looking at the old girl for me - there was nothing obviously "wrong" in that all the sensors seemed to be working and responding as they should be but at tickover mine still runs excessively rich (i.e. the lambdas would constantly report an over rich mixture) ... no idea why as there's nothing there that was actually "wrong", it just isn't doing what it should do (and I've tried two different ECUs so it's not that either).

Phil

blitzracing

Original Poster:

3,957 posts

104 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
what we saw there was the lambda probes stop switching and show rich at tick over, but it could be brought into range by raising the base idle, so it was not a million miles out. Ive seen quite a few TVR,s do this but I dont understand why raising the base idle alters the fueling- it should not, as the extra air also goes through the AFM, so the basic fueling should not change(??). B.T.W still got the colour tune?

If you think you have an ignition problem when cold, fire up the engine for just 20-30 seconds, and see if any of the exhaust headers are still cold with a quick dab with a damp cotton bud the hot ones will quickly dry. Anyway this is off topic.

ChimpanLucky

4,435 posts

63 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
Bassfiend said:
That's generally (and please, anyone else correct me if I'm wrong) just "soot" from the inside of the exhaust and cold start enrichment being blown out along with water vapour from the cold exhaust and dropping on the floor ... but it does sound like it's running very rich at startup (not just cold) which mine seems to do too.

Blitz very kindly let me pop round to his one day and he spent a couple of hours looking at the old girl for me - there was nothing obviously "wrong" in that all the sensors seemed to be working and responding as they should be but at tickover mine still runs excessively rich (i.e. the lambdas would constantly report an over rich mixture) ... no idea why as there's nothing there that was actually "wrong", it just isn't doing what it should do (and I've tried two different ECUs so it's not that either).

Phil
A hotter spark plug will provide significantly better combustion at idle & town driving conditions.

Moving from the standard 7 to a 6 heat range plug may well help improve the symptoms of your over rich condition.

As an experiment I am trialing a set of BPR6EIX iridium plugs, I did 350 miles over the bank holiday weekend and it definitely idles smoother and has a crisper throttle response on these plugs.

V8 GRF

6,648 posts

94 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
I'm not a particularily technical chap, I understand what's being talked about but when it actually comes to working out what to do to sort it..... well that's a different matter.

However, I can say that a couple of short sessions with Steve's new ECU device we've (X-Works and me) finally sorted my idle issues and a lazy lambda was the culprit. We fiddled around with the stepper settings and the various trims and voltages but without replacing anything other than the faulty part it's now sorted. I now have a collection of working steppers that didn't really need replacing over the last few years but finally after lots of time and money a working car.

I can't recommend Steve's unit enough and there will be an article in the next (May) edition of Sprint.

TV8

1,639 posts

59 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
Mine wouldnt start properly from cold. It has a few ACT bits on it but otherwise pretty standard.
My mates old stylee Krypton tuner spotted a couple of small ignition problems due to lead routing and something else minor I cant remember but didnt fix it
Blitz lent me his flashing light tester for the lambda things and they looked slow but seemed to work as they should from cold
Alex and I tried his fault reader and tested a few volt readings and all seemed normal.
I took the place to a TVR specialist in the SE with a rolling road. They said it needed one of their remaps as was running lean but found no actual fault conditions on any of EFI or ignition. It gave good power as well but running too lean which may or may not have caused the cold start problem.

The car drove perfectly apart from when cold and I didnt accept that a few induction mods would take the standard chip beyond range.
I used three testers and a rolling road and each gave a different answer!

It had a service booked at Dan Taylors and I asked him to look into the cold start. He kept it for a week and tried it from cold a few times with known good parts swapped over. It was the AFM. The one on the car tested ok but with a s/h standard one, it now starts and runs perfectly. quite a bit cheaper than a remap as well.....


Bassfiend

4,635 posts

134 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
blitzracing said:
what we saw there was the lambda probes stop switching and show rich at tick over, but it could be brought into range by raising the base idle, so it was not a million miles out. Ive seen quite a few TVR,s do this but I dont understand why raising the base idle alters the fueling- it should not, as the extra air also goes through the AFM, so the basic fueling should not change(??).
That was it - raising the revs a bit started it switching again...

blitzracing said:
B.T.W still got the colour tune?
Colourtune? What, one of those Gunsons things or do you mean your lambda sensor checker? ( I must get you to message me your addy again so I can pop it back to you... )

blitzracing said:
If you think you have an ignition problem when cold, fire up the engine for just 20-30 seconds, and see if any of the exhaust headers are still cold with a quick dab with a damp cotton bud the hot ones will quickly dry. Anyway this is off topic.
She's getting a CANEMS fitted at the moment - I think I found the cause of my intermittent cutting out ... I think there's a fractured cable where the loom enters the plug that connects to the ECU as moving that section of loom seems to cause the old girl to splutter and die. biggrin

Phil

carsy

2,010 posts

49 months

[news] 
Tuesday 10th April 2012 quote quote all
blitzracing said:
Ive seen quite a few TVR,s do this but I dont understand why raising the base idle alters the fueling- it should not, as the extra air also goes through the AFM, so the basic fueling should not change(??)
I recall TVR Beaver saying when he raised his base idle the car ran all up the rev range with noticeable more power. Turned it down and down came the power.

Interesting.

blitzracing

Original Poster:

3,957 posts

104 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th April 2012 quote quote all
Bassfiend said:
blitzracing said:
B.T.W still got the colour tune?
Colourtune? What, one of those Gunsons things or do you mean your lambda sensor checker? ( I must get you to message me your addy again so I can pop it back to you... )

Phil
Just ignore me, I lent it to someone else with a cold start problem and have not got it back- sorry.

The Lambda test box is only good with hot probes, but if you where keen you could put 12 volts on the heater wires before you start the car so you got an instant reading and see what the box tells you, You would have to remove the 12 volt feed wire from the 14CUX into the Lambda connector and insulate it, and then poke a 12 volt supply in its place from the battery / ignition. At a guess you would need at least 30 seconds or more at 12 volts to get the probe hot enough. If you dont disconnect the 14CUX loom, the 12 volts will feed back down the loom to the fuel pump, and Im not sure how the ECU electronics would take it. I think a colour tune is easier.

I still think there is some mileage to be had by putting additional resistance across the temp sender to the ECU to make it think the engine is warmer than it is if you want to easily back off the cold start fueling. I guess now I have an ECUmate it would be easy to do, just pop a varible resistor across the temp sender and adjust it until I get the temp reading I want for a good cold start. It would not affect the high temp running, as the temp probe drops to a pretty low resistance when hot, so any (highish value) resistor in parallel with have very little effect.


blitzracing

Original Poster:

3,957 posts

104 months

[news] 
Wednesday 11th April 2012 quote quote all
Back on topic, I have the USB / serial adapter now, and its not quite as straight forward as it seems, as you have to program the interface within the USB converter for the handshaking (this bits OK) but the baud rate is not so obvious if its non standard (as this is). I will find out how to do this and post it, but just to say its not just a case of connecting the adapter to the right plug with a 400 ohm resistor.
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