Discussion
HarryW said:
It would get my vote too, seems pretty affordable as a crate engine direct from Ford Racing, 420hp out of the box @ $8k, specials 500hp @$16k. So less than £10k, seems like a no brainier to me.
It's nowhere as tuneable as the LS or as flexible but I feel it has far less social stigma and wouldn't hamper the final asking price of the car in the same way. I do think that snobbery is a very important factor to contend with. There are a huge number of potential buyers who simply would turn away because of an LS. You only need to look at LS threads on PH. Ford also have a range of well tested smaller engines also.
As you chaps say, the LS is in some ways a no brainer choice, but to me it would be a bit 'all the serious modifiers are putting LS's in their Tivs, shirly we'll be onto a winner Les if we put them in the new cars?'
Seems to me it's such a no brainer that there has to be a fault in it, and I think that as the LS seems to be the default choice for big hairy transplants (or new builds...think Ultima..) a tie up with Ford to maybe produce a 'bespoke' high performance lump specifically for the new TVR's would make it far less of 'another go at resurrecting a lost cause with someone else's engine...'
Probably didn't explain my thinking too well there but you get the idea....
Seems to me it's such a no brainer that there has to be a fault in it, and I think that as the LS seems to be the default choice for big hairy transplants (or new builds...think Ultima..) a tie up with Ford to maybe produce a 'bespoke' high performance lump specifically for the new TVR's would make it far less of 'another go at resurrecting a lost cause with someone else's engine...'
Probably didn't explain my thinking too well there but you get the idea....
ChilliWhizz said:
As you chaps say, the LS is in some ways a no brainer choice, but to me it would be a bit 'all the serious modifiers are putting LS's in their Tivs, shirly we'll be onto a winner Les if we put them in the new cars?'
Seems to me it's such a no brainer that there has to be a fault in it, and I think that as the LS seems to be the default choice for big hairy transplants (or new builds...think Ultima..) a tie up with Ford to maybe produce a 'bespoke' high performance lump specifically for the new TVR's would make it far less of 'another go at resurrecting a lost cause with someone else's engine...'
Probably didn't explain my thinking too well there but you get the idea....
There will be a Ford factory in Cologne where they build a V8 and also a V12 for a customer. The customer's name will be coming off the door soon as they will take their next engines from a different German manufacturer soon. Seems to me it's such a no brainer that there has to be a fault in it, and I think that as the LS seems to be the default choice for big hairy transplants (or new builds...think Ultima..) a tie up with Ford to maybe produce a 'bespoke' high performance lump specifically for the new TVR's would make it far less of 'another go at resurrecting a lost cause with someone else's engine...'
Probably didn't explain my thinking too well there but you get the idea....
But, the problem with bespoke units and it's the problem that Aston Martin have discovered is that you lose the economies of scale when having to meet the next set of emissions targets so it costs a fortune.
I don't think TVR want to be committing such vast sums to what could be argued as a vanity when it is so much cheaper to buy crate.
DonkeyApple said:
...is that you lose the economies of scale when having to meet the next set of emissions targets so it costs a fortune.
I don't think TVR want to be committing such vast sums to what could be argued as a vanity when it is so much cheaper to buy crate.
Is there not potential for cars to have cars featuring standard crate engines with aftermarket factory tuning options? So potentially sidestepping emissions regs... slightly?I don't think TVR want to be committing such vast sums to what could be argued as a vanity when it is so much cheaper to buy crate.
DonkeyApple said:
HarryW said:
It would get my vote too, seems pretty affordable as a crate engine direct from Ford Racing, 420hp out of the box @ $8k, specials 500hp @$16k. So less than £10k, seems like a no brainier to me.
It's nowhere as tuneable as the LS or as flexible but I feel it has far less social stigma and wouldn't hamper the final asking price of the car in the same way. I do think that snobbery is a very important factor to contend with. There are a huge number of potential buyers who simply would turn away because of an LS. You only need to look at LS threads on PH. Ford also have a range of well tested smaller engines also.
Coyote's have been set up with 8xITB and can make up to 650hp in a screaming 8krpm NA format, not sure what the prices is though. I suspect its starts to get exponential by that stage. However it does prove that even it can be tuned, then there's supercharging........
RichardD said:
Is there not potential for cars to have cars featuring standard crate engines with aftermarket factory tuning options? So potentially sidestepping emissions regs... slightly?
This is what Lotus did with all their 'own' K-series derivatives. Get full Type Approval on the cars with the basic crate lumps, then SVA the tuned ones. Makes sense, but I'm sure some of our favourite technocrates will want to close that 'loophole' - but then again TVR could just establish an 'official' aftermarket tuning company. 
ChilliWhizz said:
Meanwhile, in a secret shed, at the back of TVR Power's workshop, accessed only by a hidden button behind the toilet roll in the ladies WC.... a small develop team are beavering away etc etc....
I think you will find the shed you refer to is a little further south from Power's workshop ! Looks a rather nice shed though ! Ooops have I said to much 
Nothing wrong with going down the American V8 route as such, but in my view this would seriously cheapen the TVR product. Les has to be very careful where he pitches the new car otherwise the rebirth will fail like TVR did in the past, like Marcos, like Melling, like Invicta, like Jensen, and even Weismann.
A new big American V8 powered, low volume specialist sports car would have to compete with the Cobra, GT40 replicas as well as Ultima as IMHO people would see it as 'a bit blue collar' in the same way as the Corvette. The new TVR must attract buyers from within the Z4, Boxter, SLK price range to be successful, people who have money to spend on a second car but who want something 'special' in the same way Morgan do. Morgan or Lotus don't sell cars because 'it has 450 cheap bhp', they're still in business because they sell cars with character, not pure grunt.
A classy but tuned European 6 or 8 is the way forward, BMW straight 6, Jag or Volvo V6!
Paul
A new big American V8 powered, low volume specialist sports car would have to compete with the Cobra, GT40 replicas as well as Ultima as IMHO people would see it as 'a bit blue collar' in the same way as the Corvette. The new TVR must attract buyers from within the Z4, Boxter, SLK price range to be successful, people who have money to spend on a second car but who want something 'special' in the same way Morgan do. Morgan or Lotus don't sell cars because 'it has 450 cheap bhp', they're still in business because they sell cars with character, not pure grunt.
A classy but tuned European 6 or 8 is the way forward, BMW straight 6, Jag or Volvo V6!
Paul
The Surveyor said:
Nothing wrong with going down the American V8 route as such, but in my view this would seriously cheapen the TVR product. Les has to be very careful where he pitches the new car otherwise the rebirth will fail like TVR did in the past, like Marcos, like Melling, like Invicta, like Jensen, and even Weismann.
A new big American V8 powered, low volume specialist sports car would have to compete with the Cobra, GT40 replicas as well as Ultima as IMHO people would see it as 'a bit blue collar' in the same way as the Corvette. The new TVR must attract buyers from within the Z4, Boxter, SLK price range to be successful, people who have money to spend on a second car but who want something 'special' in the same way Morgan do. Morgan or Lotus don't sell cars because 'it has 450 cheap bhp', they're still in business because they sell cars with character, not pure grunt.
A classy but tuned European 6 or 8 is the way forward, BMW straight 6, Jag or Volvo V6!
Paul
Good points made but the real reason Morgan and Lotus are still in business is because Morgan have access to BMW technology and engines because of an interest in their cars by key member of the BMW board. Lotus are still around not through selling cars but probably cash from their consultancy and a not insignificant amount of funding from their Far Eastern owners.A new big American V8 powered, low volume specialist sports car would have to compete with the Cobra, GT40 replicas as well as Ultima as IMHO people would see it as 'a bit blue collar' in the same way as the Corvette. The new TVR must attract buyers from within the Z4, Boxter, SLK price range to be successful, people who have money to spend on a second car but who want something 'special' in the same way Morgan do. Morgan or Lotus don't sell cars because 'it has 450 cheap bhp', they're still in business because they sell cars with character, not pure grunt.
A classy but tuned European 6 or 8 is the way forward, BMW straight 6, Jag or Volvo V6!
Paul
I doubt that TVR can afford the costs associated with BMW, Audi or Volvo engines and be a viable company. You can't just buy a crate BMW engine for example as they require input into it's implementation so as not to damage their brand image, that's probably why manufacturers who do have their engines always have eye wateringly high prices to support those costs.
V8 GRF said:
Good points made but the real reason Morgan and Lotus are still in business is because Morgan have access to BMW technology and engines because of an interest in their cars by key member of the BMW board. .....
I wasn't aware of Morgans connection with BMW David, maybe Les should be using his Aston Martin Le Mans team connections to talk to the Mercedes AMG board then. 
TVR could be a budget Zonda!Paul
RichardD said:
DonkeyApple said:
...is that you lose the economies of scale when having to meet the next set of emissions targets so it costs a fortune.
I don't think TVR want to be committing such vast sums to what could be argued as a vanity when it is so much cheaper to buy crate.
Is there not potential for cars to have cars featuring standard crate engines with aftermarket factory tuning options? So potentially sidestepping emissions regs... slightly?I don't think TVR want to be committing such vast sums to what could be argued as a vanity when it is so much cheaper to buy crate.
The Red Rose brand is well known and could be seriously built upon.
chapperssx said:
ChilliWhizz said:
Meanwhile, in a secret shed, at the back of TVR Power's workshop, accessed only by a hidden button behind the toilet roll in the ladies WC.... a small develop team are beavering away etc etc....
I think you will find the shed you refer to is a little further south from Power's workshop ! Looks a rather nice shed though ! Ooops have I said to much V8 GRF said:
Good points made but the real reason Morgan and Lotus are still in business is because Morgan have access to BMW technology and engines because of an interest in their cars by key member of the BMW board. Lotus are still around not through selling cars but probably cash from their consultancy and a not insignificant amount of funding from their Far Eastern owners.
I doubt that TVR can afford the costs associated with BMW, Audi or Volvo engines and be a viable company. You can't just buy a crate BMW engine for example as they require input into it's implementation so as not to damage their brand image, that's probably why manufacturers who do have their engines always have eye wateringly high prices to support those costs.
Take the Corvette engine and possibly the chassis and make it their own and sell upgrade packages back to the yanks whilst having full factory support from Chevrolet and possibly sell TVR's through some of the network in the USI doubt that TVR can afford the costs associated with BMW, Audi or Volvo engines and be a viable company. You can't just buy a crate BMW engine for example as they require input into it's implementation so as not to damage their brand image, that's probably why manufacturers who do have their engines always have eye wateringly high prices to support those costs.
keith2.2 said:
I may be wrong, but hasn't Lawrence Tomlinson already built the modern successor to a TVR with the Ginetta G55 and G60..?
Not really. The G55 is a race car, he gave up trying to make a roadcar out of that ages ago and the G60 isn't really in the same vein as a TVR, interesting car and quite good to drive now but it's 'different'. It lacks the character and that's what will be difficult for anyone to deliver.HarryW said:
DonkeyApple said:
HarryW said:
It would get my vote too, seems pretty affordable as a crate engine direct from Ford Racing, 420hp out of the box @ $8k, specials 500hp @$16k. So less than £10k, seems like a no brainier to me.
It's nowhere as tuneable as the LS or as flexible but I feel it has far less social stigma and wouldn't hamper the final asking price of the car in the same way. I do think that snobbery is a very important factor to contend with. There are a huge number of potential buyers who simply would turn away because of an LS. You only need to look at LS threads on PH. Ford also have a range of well tested smaller engines also.
Coyote's have been set up with 8xITB and can make up to 650hp in a screaming 8krpm NA format, not sure what the prices is though. I suspect its starts to get exponential by that stage. However it does prove that even it can be tuned, then there's supercharging........
Personally I think the Ford V8 would suit the TVR brand best, as named before such Coyote? engine would be fine, looks great also in standard form, open the bonnet and seeing this>
sweet and a clean engine room.
also make a little 'start' TVR with Ford V6 , say the lovely 3.7 V6 standard around 300hp NA also a great engine I think for the more affordable small but chunky light TVR.
Edited by GTRene on Wednesday 6th August 22:36
It's going to be very difficult for any new TVR no matter what engine it has,
Looks wise PW and his team built fantastic looking cars that still look great today,
And will Owners of TVR engined cars really trade down to a crate engined car especially with the great upgrades available,
Will owners of Griffs/Chims spend £50k plus on a new crate engined car or spend a lot less on keeping said cars and upgrading them,
Best chance is to build a car with a far superior chassis that won't rot out after 10 years and really improve on build quality then wrap it up in a fantastic looking body,
Performance wise it must be able to compete with the likes of Gt3s/458s and not just in a straight line and without electric toys and be far cheaper to buy,
Just like TVR once did
Looks wise PW and his team built fantastic looking cars that still look great today,
And will Owners of TVR engined cars really trade down to a crate engined car especially with the great upgrades available,
Will owners of Griffs/Chims spend £50k plus on a new crate engined car or spend a lot less on keeping said cars and upgrading them,
Best chance is to build a car with a far superior chassis that won't rot out after 10 years and really improve on build quality then wrap it up in a fantastic looking body,
Performance wise it must be able to compete with the likes of Gt3s/458s and not just in a straight line and without electric toys and be far cheaper to buy,
Just like TVR once did
GTRene said:
...also make a little 'start' TVR with Ford V6 , say the lovely 3.7 V6 standard around 300hp NA also a great engine I think for the more affordable small but chunky light TVR.
That sounds like a plan! *chews on cigar*I was always a fan of straight sixes and v6's, anyway. Small, light, nimble and affordable car with a v6? Sounds brilliant.
WolfyJones said:
It's going to be very difficult for any new TVR no matter what engine it has,
Looks wise PW and his team built fantastic looking cars that still look great today,
And will Owners of TVR engined cars really trade down to a crate engined car especially with the great upgrades available,
Will owners of Griffs/Chims spend £50k plus on a new crate engined car or spend a lot less on keeping said cars and upgrading them,
Best chance is to build a car with a far superior chassis that won't rot out after 10 years and really improve on build quality then wrap it up in a fantastic looking body,
Performance wise it must be able to compete with the likes of Gt3s/458s and not just in a straight line and without electric toys and be far cheaper to buy,
Just like TVR once did
They were once able to do that because Porkers and Fez's had less power. The game has moved on considerably and you only need look at Noble to see how this effects pricing as your costs go up and potential client base dwindles dramatically. Looks wise PW and his team built fantastic looking cars that still look great today,
And will Owners of TVR engined cars really trade down to a crate engined car especially with the great upgrades available,
Will owners of Griffs/Chims spend £50k plus on a new crate engined car or spend a lot less on keeping said cars and upgrading them,
Best chance is to build a car with a far superior chassis that won't rot out after 10 years and really improve on build quality then wrap it up in a fantastic looking body,
Performance wise it must be able to compete with the likes of Gt3s/458s and not just in a straight line and without electric toys and be far cheaper to buy,
Just like TVR once did
I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
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