Discussion
DonkeyApple said:
They were once able to do that because Porkers and Fez's had less power. The game has moved on considerably and you only need look at Noble to see how this effects pricing as your costs go up and potential client base dwindles dramatically.
I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
This is the crux of the problem they face. The game has moved on so much in the last 10 years or so. The performance of cars like the 458, GT3, GTR, etc is just staggering, and they combine it with reliability, comfort, safety etc.I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
To directly compete with cars like these is going to take vast amounts of money, R+D etc.
DonkeyApple said:
They were once able to do that because Porkers and Fez's had less power. The game has moved on considerably and you only need look at Noble to see how this effects pricing as your costs go up and potential client base dwindles dramatically.
I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
The 'credible volumes' game is a bit of a red herring, I would just build the ones I can sell at a decent margin to people who understand what they are buying. The scope for losing your shirt on building new cars is a lot greater than the potential gains. Basically, you need new cars to keep the brand alive and in column inches/pixels. I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
The money in automotive is entirely in aftersales/aftermarket (including motorsport support activities and upgrades for the existing vehicle parc), branding/merchandising and events/incentives.
As for performance, we're at the point where one really can't hope to compete with the top dogs in terms of cold numbers with a 2WD, front engined car. On road tyres, the threshold of what you can handle on the road before electronics rein the whole lot back in again has not much progressed - if at all - beyond the low/mid 'real' 300s bhp/ton the last batch of TVRs already had (see where the top F-Type and Astons sit in this regard...). Then again, I don't think it's relavant at all unless you are hoping to sell to the great unwashed that need to validate their choice with playing the numbers game in the pub. Unlike two decades ago when 'supercars' were generally a lot slower than the outlandish claims for them indicated and something like a Lancia Integrale could easily show them a thing or two on a real road, the performance of the current lot has become a theoretical/intellectual exercise more than anything else.
The only place for TVR to go is to make an analogue/mechanical car as a counterpoint to the electronics-guided missile devices that pass for sports cars these days, and accept the performance limitations - not that you won't blow the doors off a bum-basic 911 of similar price, anyway, atleast in a straight line...
900T-R said:
The only place for TVR to go is to make an analogue/mechanical car as a counterpoint to the electronics-guided missile devices that pass for sports cars these days, and accept the performance limitations - not that you won't blow the doors off a bum-basic 911 of similar price, anyway, at least in a straight line...
I also think that this is the best approach, although I don't think that it needs to be front engined. A 450bhp LSx in a 1.2tonne car can't be far off the pace for the 0-60 stats. To achieve 1% of the volume of 911 sales I don't think you need the reliability or quality. You need a different choice that people want (dream) to own.900T-R said:
...electronics-guided missile devices that pass for sports cars these days...
Elsewhere on PH this week was a link to a Car & Driver (US) review of the latest Lambo. Just a baby model with 602bhp and 1500kgs. So in terms of power and weight not too far off the last TVR's.But the result of modern elec-trickery : 0-100 mph in 5.7 secs
! Supposedly with only the driver and a low tank of fuel, but still....The only way a new TVR could match the dynamics of the modern high end production cars would be for it to be all electric !
So I'm with the concensus here for simplicity and style.
While existing owners may not be future new car customers, they will help prop up used values, so having not overcomplex cars here would make them more desirable longer term.
TA14 said:
900T-R said:
The only place for TVR to go is to make an analogue/mechanical car as a counterpoint to the electronics-guided missile devices that pass for sports cars these days, and accept the performance limitations - not that you won't blow the doors off a bum-basic 911 of similar price, anyway, at least in a straight line...
I also think that this is the best approach, although I don't think that it needs to be front engined. A 450bhp LSx in a 1.2tonne car can't be far off the pace for the 0-60 stats. To achieve 1% of the volume of 911 sales I don't think you need the reliability or quality. You need a different choice that people want (dream) to own.Going after established, multinationals is folly.
When I refered to volumes, I was thinking more about building a few a week as a target instead of a few per year.
There are buyers who want a modern car that doesn't come from a mainstream builder and doesn't have a thousand buttons to do a million things to your bunghole. I have no idea how big this market is but what we know is that it can only include UK buyers initially and as you increase price the number falls off a cliff very rapidly.
The market is saturated with anodyne mass produced sports cars and at the other end of the spectrum, saturated with track cars. Outside of Morgan there isn't much in between. Arguably because there isn't much demand in comparison but I do feel there is a niche to be filled and that is for a Morganesque product that caters for people who don't wear tweed or want to pretend they are upper middle class when they drive away from their very middle class house.
TVR is an oiks brand and there are more oiks (regardless of background) with money than there are gentry wannabes so I don't see why TVR could achieve better volumes than Morgan.
I think a Ford V8 would work well and keep costs down while not alienating a large part of the buying niche that an LS will.
And as you say, either of those units is going to waste a basic 911 while hopefully being less expensive.
And will Owners of TVR engined cars really trade down to a crate engined car especially with the great upgrades available,
Will owners of Griffs/Chims spend £50k plus on a new crate engined car or spend a lot less on keeping said cars and upgrading them,
What is all this nobbery over so called "crate engines",err TVR survived for a long time buying "Crate" engines from Ford,Rover,Triumph,its what small manufacturers do funnily enough.it doesn't stop Morgan buyers buying a car with a BMW "Crate engine".as someone said earlier,the majority of us here,me included aren't in the market for a new TVR so what we think is somewhat irrelevent anyway.if the LS is the way to go,i say go for it,stick a nice piece of purple beauty plastic on top of the engine with TVR branded on it,convince the customer its a TVR engine as per the Rover V8 and away you go.
DonkeyApple said:
And as you say, either of those units is going to waste a basic 911 while hopefully being less expensive.
As an aside SAAB advertised for about 40 years that their car was faster than a 911 with a footnote that this was for 30 to 50 in fourth, or some other carefully chosed statistic that year 
RichardD said:
Elsewhere on PH this week was a link to a Car & Driver (US) review of the latest Lambo. Just a baby model with 602bhp and 1500kgs. So in terms of power and weight not too far off the last TVR's.
But the result of modern elec-trickery : 0-100 mph in 5.7 secs ! Supposedly with only the driver and a low tank of fuel, but still....
Quite. However (and it's only a small mitigation), Cart & Drivel is notorious for getting suspiciously low 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. In the 1990s they claimed 7.6 seconds 0-60 for a naturally aspirated Saab 900 for which the factory claimed double figures (which was confirmed by every other road test out there) But the result of modern elec-trickery : 0-100 mph in 5.7 secs
! Supposedly with only the driver and a low tank of fuel, but still....DonkeyApple said:
Maybe. Certainly any upgrades should be factory endorsed so as to monetise an important revenue stream that TVR in the past have completely failed to earn from.
...
In the idea - upgrades would be done at the factory or at least something TVR owned/controlled. How much scope there would be for upgrades would depend on the requirements of MOT vs EURO plant food regs....
If taking the idea of the Ford units, this would allow upgraded engines to be built more with revs in mind, providing a more satisfying drive (than say supercharging an already grunty V8)
900T-R said:
Quite. However (and it's only a small mitigation), Cart & Drivel is notorious for getting suspiciously low 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. In the 1990s they claimed 7.6 seconds 0-60 for a naturally aspirated Saab 900 for which the factory claimed double figures (which was confirmed by every other road test out there)
From a few years ago, I read that C&D didn't believe in taking the foot off the 'gas' pedal between gear changes! DonkeyApple said:
I think a Ford V8 would work well and keep costs down while not alienating a large part of the buying niche that an LS will.
why this?its just your opinion not fact
I've had my hands in those modular ford units. they're horrible (quote from an engine builder that does lots of high HP ford/Gm stuff). there is a reason that so many use the LS..its just a bloody good engine
the oiks to which you refer above won't care what engine is in it. they will recognise the LS "thug of an engine" as the vette/monaro engine that top gear rave about and that'll be enough for them
Edited by SteveSPG on Thursday 7th August 15:22
SteveSPG said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think a Ford V8 would work well and keep costs down while not alienating a large part of the buying niche that an LS will.
why this?its just your opinion not fact
I've had my hands in those modular ford units. they're horrible (quote from an engine builder that does lots of high HP ford/Gm stuff). there is a reason that so many use the LS..its just a bloody good engine
the oiks to which you refer above won't care what engine is in it. they will recognise the LS "thug of an engine" as the vette/monaro engine that top gear rave about and that'll be enough for them
Edited by SteveSPG on Thursday 7th August 15:22
What is fact is that UK buyers above a certain level are catagorically put off by US power plants. And what is also fact is that Ford has a superior Motorsport heritage in the UK than GM.
And who wants to spend £50k+ for something that is linked to a Corvette or Monaro? Right or wrong there is a comedy stigma to those vehicles that you only need to see any related post on PH to find more 'enthusiasts' mocking than supporting.
They may well use the LS and I've nothing against it, I happen to be a big fan and respect the modern engineering in them that most seem to mock. But it is about perception in the market place and there is absolutely no doubt that using the LS unit will reduce potential sales unless they are going to be jobbing these cars out for the price of a Mondeo or Vauxhall which I suspect isn't possible.
If, as many suspect, any new car will be at a price above where the last TVRs were sold then choice of engine isn't just about bang for buck but about marketing.
TA14 said:
DonkeyApple said:
And as you say, either of those units is going to waste a basic 911 while hopefully being less expensive.
As an aside SAAB advertised for about 40 years that their car was faster than a 911 with a footnote that this was for 30 to 50 in fourth, or some other carefully chosed statistic that year Cake or death?
Er, cake please...
Ford or Chevrolet?
Ford please
Just my personal opinion........ It's a heritage thing for me
ETA: I worked very briefly for Caterham Car Sales in 1969, and I still have vivid memories of Vixens and Tuscans arriving in 'kit' form with plastic wrapped 1600 X-flows and Essex 3.0 V6's
Er, cake please...
Ford or Chevrolet?
Ford please
Just my personal opinion........ It's a heritage thing for me
ETA: I worked very briefly for Caterham Car Sales in 1969, and I still have vivid memories of Vixens and Tuscans arriving in 'kit' form with plastic wrapped 1600 X-flows and Essex 3.0 V6's
Edited by ChilliWhizz on Thursday 7th August 15:57
ChilliWhizz said:
Cake or death?
Er, cake please...
Ford or Chevrolet?
Ford please
Just my personal opinion........ It's a heritage thing for me
ETA: I worked very briefly for Caterham Car Sales in 1969, and I still have vivid memories of Vixens and Tuscans arriving in 'kit' form with plastic wrapped 1600 X-flows and Essex 3.0 V6's
Crate or Wrapped !Er, cake please...
Ford or Chevrolet?
Ford please
Just my personal opinion........ It's a heritage thing for me
ETA: I worked very briefly for Caterham Car Sales in 1969, and I still have vivid memories of Vixens and Tuscans arriving in 'kit' form with plastic wrapped 1600 X-flows and Essex 3.0 V6's
Edited by ChilliWhizz on Thursday 7th August 15:57
AV8 said:
DonkeyApple said:
They were once able to do that because Porkers and Fez's had less power. The game has moved on considerably and you only need look at Noble to see how this effects pricing as your costs go up and potential client base dwindles dramatically.
I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
This is the crux of the problem they face. The game has moved on so much in the last 10 years or so. The performance of cars like the 458, GT3, GTR, etc is just staggering, and they combine it with reliability, comfort, safety etc.I agree that build quality is essential but trying to match modern supercar performance is a dead end for the TVR brand. It isn't a prestige brand and could never carry the price needed to meet those criteria.
And most current older Tiv owners aren't the people who forked out new so arguably aren't as core to future sales as you might think. Especially if you want to build in credible volumes.
To directly compete with cars like these is going to take vast amounts of money, R+D etc.
One point though is gt3/gtr etc are still heavy cars, if Tvr can keep wait down to around 1 ton, build a balanced chassis with lots of mech grip, equivalent rubber and 450 Bhp it won't be far off in dry conditions and will be a hoot to drive,
Agree on new customers also , most won't be existing owners, they need to nick cayman/gt3/gtr sales and by offering something more direct more fun and less electronic should work.
Just look on the Porsche forum they are all moaning about electronic interference whether it's steering feel, gearbox etc
I seem to be reading thoughts that are along the lines of an updated Sagaris to compete with 911s and other £70-100k cars.
Fine. I won't be buying one, but then I am probably not the target audience for one of those, being well stricken in years.
But if someone at TVR produced an updated Chimaera/Griff with an LS 1/2/3/6/9 up front, simple construction, mechanical components that won't break as soon as I drop the clutch, and a price tag even pence short of 40k, I would be selling the grandkids faster than you can say "Snetterton" without spraying the salesman with real ale.
I really think there is a market for a big engined, small sports car that simply goes....and has at least some modicum of handling.
Fine. I won't be buying one, but then I am probably not the target audience for one of those, being well stricken in years.
But if someone at TVR produced an updated Chimaera/Griff with an LS 1/2/3/6/9 up front, simple construction, mechanical components that won't break as soon as I drop the clutch, and a price tag even pence short of 40k, I would be selling the grandkids faster than you can say "Snetterton" without spraying the salesman with real ale.
I really think there is a market for a big engined, small sports car that simply goes....and has at least some modicum of handling.
900T-R said:
The 'credible volumes' game is a bit of a red herring, I would just build the ones I can sell at a decent margin to people who understand what they are buying. The scope for losing your shirt on building new cars is a lot greater than the potential gains. Basically, you need new cars to keep the brand alive and in column inches/pixels.
The money in automotive is entirely in aftersales/aftermarket (including motorsport support activities and upgrades for the existing vehicle parc), branding/merchandising and events/incentives.
As for performance, we're at the point where one really can't hope to compete with the top dogs in terms of cold numbers with a 2WD, front engined car. On road tyres, the threshold of what you can handle on the road before electronics rein the whole lot back in again has not much progressed - if at all - beyond the low/mid 'real' 300s bhp/ton the last batch of TVRs already had (see where the top F-Type and Astons sit in this regard...). Then again, I don't think it's relavant at all unless you are hoping to sell to the great unwashed that need to validate their choice with playing the numbers game in the pub. Unlike two decades ago when 'supercars' were generally a lot slower than the outlandish claims for them indicated and something like a Lancia Integrale could easily show them a thing or two on a real road, the performance of the current lot has become a theoretical/intellectual exercise more than anything else.
The only place for TVR to go is to make an analogue/mechanical car as a counterpoint to the electronics-guided missile devices that pass for sports cars these days, and accept the performance limitations - not that you won't blow the doors off a bum-basic 911 of similar price, anyway, atleast in a straight line...
Agree though don't underestimate what a lightweight mechanical car with only 420 Bhp can do The money in automotive is entirely in aftersales/aftermarket (including motorsport support activities and upgrades for the existing vehicle parc), branding/merchandising and events/incentives.
As for performance, we're at the point where one really can't hope to compete with the top dogs in terms of cold numbers with a 2WD, front engined car. On road tyres, the threshold of what you can handle on the road before electronics rein the whole lot back in again has not much progressed - if at all - beyond the low/mid 'real' 300s bhp/ton the last batch of TVRs already had (see where the top F-Type and Astons sit in this regard...). Then again, I don't think it's relavant at all unless you are hoping to sell to the great unwashed that need to validate their choice with playing the numbers game in the pub. Unlike two decades ago when 'supercars' were generally a lot slower than the outlandish claims for them indicated and something like a Lancia Integrale could easily show them a thing or two on a real road, the performance of the current lot has become a theoretical/intellectual exercise more than anything else.
The only place for TVR to go is to make an analogue/mechanical car as a counterpoint to the electronics-guided missile devices that pass for sports cars these days, and accept the performance limitations - not that you won't blow the doors off a bum-basic 911 of similar price, anyway, atleast in a straight line...
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